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LA Dodgers or Minnesota Twins ?
Goldenage
Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭
in Sports Talk
No Brooklyn Dodgers players unless they played in LA.
No pitchers.
Better all time line up ?
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Goldenage
Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭
Goldenage
Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭
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Dodgers
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Ralph
Dodgers
All the Brooklyn greats were in LA in 1957 no?
Giants over either
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Jackie Robinson and Roy Campanella weren't.
Steve
Killebrew MVP 1969 HOF left field
Puckett HOF center field
Carew MVP 1977 HOF second base
Olivia HOF right field
Morneau MVP 2006 first base
Versalles MVP 1965 shortstop
Gaetti 4 GG third base (4th all time games played at 3rd)
Mauer MVP 2009 3X BA champ catcher
Show me a better Dodgers lineup.
I stand corrected, I forgot about them.
I'm actually embarrassed
I mentioned to Brick that I’ll take the Twins, but it’s very close. I take the Red Sox over the Yankees but that is close too.
Not sure why no pitchers. Are they not part of a team!? I assume because that goes against the Twins narrative. So we agree the Dodgers pitchers are better.
I didn't think it would be a contest but I do see that the Twins have a good first team. I suspect the Dodgers are significantly deeper but with less hall of famers. Unless you include people that had a cup of coffee with the Dodgers like Pujols.
Just a quick list without too much thought. Seems like a decent squad:
Garvey (Puljos*)
Sax
Reese
T. Turner
Piazza
Betts
Snider
Gibson
I didn’t include pitching with the Yankees-Red Sox either because it would highly favor the Red Sox. Same with Dodgers.
I didn't even consider "cup of coffee" guys. If so, the Twins could include Dave Winfield and Paul Monitor.
I don't know why pitchers weren't included, but Minnesota would have Blylevin, Santana, Kaat, Pascual and Viola as starters and Nathan as the closer. I didn't include Walter Johnson assuming he wouldn't be considered a Twin. But I'll take him if he's available.😁 Cup of coffee Jack Morris and Steve Carlton?
I just remembered the Dodgers get Frank Robinson if we go cup of coffee guys!
Dodgers get: Koufax, Drysdale, Kershaw, Sutton, and Fernando/Nomo/Park or whoever you want as the 5th starter. We'll go Gagne/Jansen/Marshall (Cy Young winner I believe) in the pin.
I would think not on Pujols.
So, 3 HOFers? Piazza is better than Mauer (who might get in eventually) Carew over Sax for sure. Snyder and Puckett pretty close, but I'll concede the "Duke" was better than "Puck".
Depth wise, which was not asked btw, the Twins have Hrbek, Allison, Torii Hunter, (9 GG), on the bench.
Seems that based on the OP it's a pretty clear victory for the Twins.
I can think of 3 HOF pitchers right away for the Dodgers. I don't follow the N.L. much, so L.A. has better pitching, and possibly depth.
At least clear to you. Lol.
If we're following the ridiculous "cup of coffee" rules that render this entire exercise meaningless, then the Dodgers get Juan Marichal in the rotation and Hoyt Wilhelm in the bullpen, as well as Ken Boyer, Dick Allen, Frank Robinson, Gary Carter and a whole bunch of other stars who have no business on an all-time Dodgers team.
4 full years played for the team.
No rules were set for cup of coffee players.
This allows for players like Ruth and Reggie who won a few World Series for Boston and NY to qualify.
A guy like Ken Holtzman who played four seasons and was an important part of 3 World Series victories has to be considered for an all time great As team.
But, what if the player in question played in the 1933 All-Star game? How does that change things? Asking for a friend.
I think my 8 starters are better than the 8 listed for the Dodgers, despite the fact that everyone responding favored the Dodgers.
4 HOFers and 3 of the other guys won MVP's.
I would be interested in your opinion Dallas, the 8 I listed against 8 Dodgers.
Your choice, if different from the one listed, as well as the one that was submitted.
In case it wasn't clear, I agree with you - using anything resembling a reasonable definition, the Minnesota Twins beat the Los Angeles Dodgers, at least if we're ignoring pitching. I didn't dig into it, but your Twins lineup looks good enough to beat any LA Dodger lineup.
The LA Dodgers have always won with pitching and fielding; their hitting has always been "good enough". I think most teams could assemble a hitting roster that would be better than LA's, provided sane, reasonable rules were followed*. If you credit the LA Dodgers with the hitting of the Brooklyn Dodgers, though, it probably flips.
(*) To be fair, the 1970's Dodgers hit very well, but their best hitters (and overall players) were Jimmy Wynn and Reggie Smith, and I don't think those two belong on an LA Dodgers AS team.
Seldom seen rookie photo.
JoeBanzai- Do you have Kent Hrbek much below Mourneau at first base?
I always liked Hrbek and thought he was underrated.
Just from memory it seems he produced for a longer period of time than Mourneau.
None of them were since the Dodgers were still in Brooklyn in 1957
Great question!
That was my toughest decision.
Hrbek was a tremendous defensive player (yes, I know, 1st base) and a very good hitter. His 128 OPS+ over 7000 PA is better than Moreau's 120 over 6400 PA.
For a shorter period of time Moreau was an absolute stud! For a bigger guy, he went from first to third on a single as well as anyone. His power was extraordinary, several times I saw him hit ground balls through the infield so hard they would go all the way to the wall. On turf, of course, but you just didn't see that happening much. He also was an MVP and finished second on another occasion.
Moreau had a bit of a problem early in his career with being focused. I believe Torii Hunter might have gone so far as to punch Justin after an argument about his lack of it. Justin got the message. Justin also had some concussion problems that hampered his career.
Hrbek was a very underated player. Don Mattingly got all the GG and AS awards, but Kent deserved a few.
Hrbek was also a VERY COOL DUDE!
If we go with four full years, the Dodgers lose Gibson. I'd have bet money he had more than three years in LA.
So who is the Dodgers' outfield? Mookie only has 3 years. Cody Bellinger looked like a superstar in 2019 and has been atrocious ever since.
Duke, obviously. Tommy & Willie Davis?
The LA Dodgers did a whole lot of platooning and trading in the OF, and it is hard to identify true outfielders with meaningful careers in LA. Great players like Frank Howard and Pedro Guerrero passed through, along with Reggie Smith, Jimmy Wynn, and others, but they didn't play many full seasons as outfielders. And if we're starting with Snider, the next best OF is Willie Davis, and he also played CF so I don't think you can take him. I think you get Dusty Baker in LF and Shawn Green in RF.
Piazza ove Mauer at C
Garvey over Morneau at 1B
Carew over Jeff Kent at 2B. Kent will be a HOFer and should be already. Soon it will be Trea Turner here.
Cey over Gaetti at 3B
Reese over Versaille at SS by a large margin.
Snider over Puckett in CF
Mookie Betts over Oliva in RF. Mookie will be a clear first ballot HOFer.
Killebrew over Reggie Smith in LF**
Reggie Smith is criminally underrated with an 855 OPS and 137 OPS+. His 314 home runs are more than every twin there except two. He only played LF a few times, but moving from the harder spots to LF is no problem.
Who cares if Versailles won an MVP he is nowhere close to Reese. As much as WAR has its problems Reese's 68.4 to 12.6 lead renders any further discussion moot. Reese only played one year in LA, so if that isn't enough then Trea Turner gets put there now and discussion is moot as well.
The Dodger lineup actually has a sizeable lead.
Glad you posted!
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I'll counter with;
Piazza over Mauer, closer than you think. Piazza had more power, but Joe was a far, far superior catcher.
Hrbek over Garvey, very close.
Carew over Kent. Kent wasn't mentioned before.
Gaetti over Cey, Ron was the better hitter, Gary the better in the field and had the better nickname. "The rat". LOL
Reese over Versailles, Reese barely makes it, playing only 59 games as a Dodger and Turner has only been there a couple of years, so yes, an MVP award does mean something for Zoilo.
Snider over Puckett, very close.
Olivia over Betts, Betts belongs on the Red Sox, but he's not as good as Olivia.
Tony dominated the offensive leader board until he got hurt.
Killebrew over Smith, Smith had a great year in 1977, but again, was more known for playing in Boston. I completely agree that Smith is criminally underrated!
Your team looks to be almost as good, but I can't agree with your inclusion of Betts and Smith.
If you count the contributions to OTHER teams, you probably win here.......maybe.😁
Good discussion!
4 full seasons. No Betts.
Very close, but Twins eek out the win.
T(win)s
The thing that bothers me most about these lineups is that it makes no sense to honor player X as the GOAT at a position for Team Y based on what that player X accomplished for Team Z, possibly playing a different position. No sense at all.
Honoring Babe Ruth as the GOAT RF for the Red Sox when he never played RF for the Red Sox is just stupid. But honoring Ruth as the GOAT at any position for the Red Sox based on what he did as a Yankee ain't a whole lot better.
If Gary Carter is the GOAT catcher for the LA Dodgers then base that statement on what Carter did for the LA Dodgers, at which point you concede he's not the top 25. Ditto for Pee Wee Reese. Duke Snider may still be top 5 in CF for the LA Dodgers with his 1,300 at bats, but he's no Willie Davis. And Gil Hodges is not in the top 5 at 1B in his 1,300 at bats.
If you want to say Reggie Smith is the GOAT in LF for the Dodgers, ...., just stop - he never played LF for the Dodgers. If you want to say he's the GOAT RF for the Dodgers, then base it on what he did in those 500+ games, not on what he did for the Red Sox.
It's more a reflection of how the two teams platooned, traded, etc. than the actual quality of the teams, but the silliness required to make an LA Dodger lineup that can even compete with a Twins lineup is too much.
It’s not hard. An outfielder can play any outfield position.
A linebacker can play any linebacker position.
An infielder can play any infielder position except catcher and pitcher.
A D lineman can play any of the four line positions.
Pete Rose played 1B, 2B, 3B, and LF.
Many major leaguers could do the same as Pete if asked.
Arod and Cal played SS and 3B and could play 1B and 2B if needed.
It’s not hard. These guys are that good.
It's not hard to have Willie Mays play 3B, in fact the Giants actually did it once. My point is that in constructing a GOAT lineup for the Giants having Willie Mays play 3B is stupid, and renders the entire enterprise stupid. Not as stupid as putting Babe Ruth at a position he didn't even play once, but still stupid.
If player X is the GOAT for team Y at position Z, then count what X did for Y while playing Z. Talk about "not hard", that's just plain easy, and not stupid.
This guy turned 77 yesterday
Good points. I will concede. I took a big liberty with including Jeff Kent too, in addition to the ones you mentioned.. Kent only played four years in LA and that was at the end of his career(though Kent belongs in the HOF and it is criminal he isn't even remotely considered).
I agree, Mauer and Piazza are much closer than many would think...and Piazza also played half his career outside LA.
I tried to come up with an LA team to counter....but I agree, yours makes more sense.
Always a fun discussion.
PS Edited to add, great calling throwing Hrbek in there as he is also criminally underrated! His hitting career totals are as good as Mattingly's