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Headed to a coin show...would you consider this appropriate?

oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 11,896 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited September 22, 2022 8:27AM in U.S. Coin Forum

I am headed to a coin show, first one in five years, with my briefcase of lighthouse trays of coins. I have had compliments on presentation from some the dealers to scan over them versus lifting the slabs out of the pcgs boxes. I have in the past had dealers write down on their business cards what they would pay for a coin they were interested in and place it in the tray under the coin and sell it to the highest offer later in the afternoon. A couple of dealers would ask about the cards underneath the coin slabs and I would tell them that those are other interested buyers. Would it be proper to disclose what other potential buyers would be willing to pay to another potential buyer/dealer? Or should that be confidential?

Thank you for your intetest and comments.

(Just one of many coins I'm taking to the show)

oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's

BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
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    JeffersonFrogJeffersonFrog Posts: 829 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ah, differing opinions. Unless a dealer asks you to keep their offer confidential, I think you are free to use that information as you wish. The strategy of how much information you offer, to which dealers, and when you offer it, is a whole nother story. I see nothing wrong with (made up scenario) with telling dealer #3, who you seem to gel with, "I appreciate your offer, but I do already have one $25 higher". Dealers (IMO) are a finicky lot - they may appreciate this intel, or they may go nuclear on you. One opinion, worth what you paid for it. : )

    If we were all the same, the world would be an incredibly boring place.

    Tommy

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    joeykoinsjoeykoins Posts: 14,866 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Coin Shows are the BEST!
    I envy you.
    Any pics on your special display?
    About showing others offers?
    Why not show? It will be like a traveling Ebay! In fact, it's your property, it's your rules. Why not?

    Good Luck

    and have FUN.
    ;)

    "Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!

    --- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.
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    lilolmelilolme Posts: 2,458 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Reading the OP I am assuming from "and sell it to the highest offer later in the afternoon" that this is working very similar to a silent auction. Showing the coin(s), taking offers/bids and selling to the highest offer/bid at the end of the day. In this situation it would not be appropriate to disclose the previous offers/bids.

    Perhaps as MasonG said if you state that all prior offers are to be disclosed and show everyone the current list of offers but then this is not a silent auction.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023

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    ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 6,328 ✭✭✭✭✭

    In my mind it would be better to just have a lowest number in mind and sell to the first dealer who offers it or above. No need to complicate the process.

    Collector, occasional seller

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    oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 11,896 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2022 11:49AM

    If I had the time, I would send them to GC, but I don't, and when I hit a certain amount I need at this time, I will stop. Thank you for the replies!

    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's

    BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
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    ShaunBC5ShaunBC5 Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I used to run bids on goods and services for a living. You’ve got to avoid the temptation to disclose information to less than every bidder. There’s nothing wrong with letting everyone (from the beginning) know that nothing below $X will be considered, but then you just have bidders trying to be as close to $X as possible.
    Also, if you only want cash, or have other stipulations, everyone should know that up front, too.
    Good luck!

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    WalkerfanWalkerfan Posts: 8,973 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2022 10:49AM

    Most dealers that I have talked to hate and take offense to the scenario that you have described. There is no law against it but it is frowned upon for sure.

    “I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~

    My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)

    https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/

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    mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 5,970 ✭✭✭✭✭

    "whoring the coins around"

    This thought came into my head right away as I read the OP. If I were a show dealer, I would decline the offer to bid by business card even on coin or coins I'm "interested in." For coin or coins interested in, the starting point for me (who has the money) would be simply saying to seller (who has the coin), "how much you want?"

    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein

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    MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @oih82w8 said:
    If I had the time, I would send them to GC, but I don't, and when I hit a certain amount I need at this time, I will stop.

    There are a number of ways your system could go sideways. If you know how much you want to get for the coins, why not just make that offer?

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    braddickbraddick Posts: 23,112 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Too convoluted for my taste.
    I would quietly pass.

    peacockcoins

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    JBKJBK Posts: 14,759 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Your process has the makings of a sealed bid auction, but if you are going to allow subsequent bidders to see the bids that defeats the purpose.

    If I were a potential buyer I'd just tell you to stop by my table last and I'd see if I wanted to outbid the top bidder.

    In a sealed auction people would have one chance to put in their best bid.

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    messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,698 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Floridafacelifter said:
    It’s like your own little briefcase bid board- your coins your rules!

    That's the way I see it. If a someone doesn't like your rules, they won't play. If you sell everything for decent money, then it's effective. If you don't alienate dealers and get complaints along the way, then it would seem appropriate as well. I don't see how anything but a sealed auction model would work well in that respect.

    If you want to let people know what has already been offered, you may as well have bid board cards with you. People will be upset about not having a fair shot at being able to be the first to bid if you walk coins around the bourse for bids, though.

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    TomBTomB Posts: 20,730 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:
    The scenario you described is unfair to those who have made prior offers and is sometimes referred to as "whoring the coins around".

    Here's a hypothetical, the type of which can occur rather frequently:

    Person A offers $1000 for a coin.

    Person B (who isn't as fair/reasonable as person A) would have offered $800, but has the advantage of seeing the previous $1000 offer from Person A and instead offers $1025.

    Meanwhile, person A doesn't have the benefit of seeing and acting upon person B's subsequent offer.

    Yes, the seller does better that way. But if everyone had been on equal footing, the person who would have been more fair is penalized, while the one who would have been less fair is rewarded.

    If you do plan to show subsequent buyers the offers you've already received, at least let everyone know that before soliciting their offers.

    Agree completely with @MFeld, which is generally a very good place to stand. I wouldn't write what I would pay for a coin on my business card as I view the possible transaction as being done at that time and once you walk away from the table we start over again. However, I would absolutely agree with the phrase Mark used and would believe that is what you were doing. As such, you would get a very frosty response from me in the future if you pulled that on me.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,050 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2022 11:54AM

    @Floridafacelifter said:
    It’s like your own little briefcase bid board- your coins your rules!

    @messydesk said:

    That's the way I see it. If a someone doesn't like your rules, they won't play. If you sell everything for decent money, then it's effective. If you don't alienate dealers and get complaints along the way, then it would seem appropriate as well. I don't see how anything but a sealed auction model would work well in that respect.

    If you want to let people know what has already been offered, you may as well have bid board cards with you. People will be upset about not having a fair shot at being able to be the first to bid if you walk coins around the bourse for bids, though.

    Agreed that it's his rules. But all participants need to be informed of the rules in advance. And that's why I included the following in my previous post: "If you do plan to show subsequent buyers the offers you've already received, at least let everyone know that before soliciting their offers."

    Edited to add; And knowing that, many potential buyers will probably decline to participate.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,298 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If you are merely out to make the most you can, revealing the amount previously offered is done everyday. In my opinion, if you wish become or remain an honest and respected dealer of coins, it is totally unfair to the early bidders to reveal their offers. Should you tell the dealers it is a walkabout auction and they still wish to participate, then all is fair.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
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    fishteethfishteeth Posts: 2,236 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have found that selling to dealers works best if you know what you want for the coin. Figure out what you want for the coins, put prices 10% over and then you have some room to negotiate. if no one is interested then your prices are too high.

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    BarberianBarberian Posts: 3,039 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @pcgscacgold said:
    Out of fairness you should also then go back to the other dealers that put in offers and let them up their bids if they want. If you don't then the order you visit the dealers matters.

    That doesn't solve the problem. If you go back to Dealer A to solicit a higher offer, you screw Dealer B who only had one chance to offer. The last dealer solicited has an unfair advantage over the rest. On and on ad infinitum.

    3 rim nicks away from Good
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    KliaoKliao Posts: 5,460 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If it's a dealer that I know personally and trust, I wouldn't have a problem letting them know of other offers but to most, I would just let them know that there are other dealers that are interested in the coin without going further into the details.

    Young Numismatist/collector
    75 Positive BST transactions buying and selling with 45 members and counting!
    instagram.com/klnumismatics

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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,550 ✭✭✭✭✭

    No, not appropriate.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,911 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MasonG said:
    If you're going to tell bidders what the other bidders are offering, you should probably let people know upfront that you're doing that whether they ask or not.

    edited to add... Would you be okay with Heritage or GC letting other bidders know what you bid for a coin? A lot of people wouldn't.

    This. If I knew a seller were getting to leverage my offer for a higher offer, I would pull my offer. It's always easier to be the second bidder.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,911 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2022 1:12PM

    @Barberian said:

    @pcgscacgold said:
    Out of fairness you should also then go back to the other dealers that put in offers and let them up their bids if they want. If you don't then the order you visit the dealers matters.

    That doesn't solve the problem. If you go back to Dealer A to solicit a higher offer, you screw Dealer B who only had one chance to offer. The last dealer solicited has an unfair advantage over the rest. On and on ad infinitum.

    Well, at some point, people will stop raising their offers...or actually start pulling their offers.

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    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,423 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Most dealers will honor their offer until you leave their table.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

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    DisneyFanDisneyFan Posts: 1,703 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @oih82w8 said:

    Would it be proper to disclose what other potential buyers would be willing to pay to another potential buyer/dealer?

    That's really how an auction works. But, you are not running an auction. I'd try to get "best and final offers" from as many dealers as possible. Don't accept any "I'll pay $XXX over your highest offer."

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    TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,843 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Moving right along.

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    oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 11,896 ✭✭✭✭✭

    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's

    BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
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    yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,595 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2022 2:26PM

    If you do it as a sealed bid auction, with the high bidder paying the second highest price,
    then the bidders have the correct incentive to bid their max.
    This is a well known result in economics.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auction_theory
    Auction houses run it slightly differently, where the final price is one increment above the second highest; results are about the same.

    This assumes the bidders trust you to run the auction according to the rules, with no shills, etc.
    And this trust factor is one of the reasons that auction houses want a good reputation, so they strive for transparency, etc.

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,050 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @MasonG said:
    If you're going to tell bidders what the other bidders are offering, you should probably let people know upfront that you're doing that whether they ask or not.

    edited to add... Would you be okay with Heritage or GC letting other bidders know what you bid for a coin? A lot of people wouldn't.

    This. If I knew a seller were getting to leverage my offer for a higher offer, I would pull my offer. It's always easier to be the second bidder.

    I’d say “It’s always easier to be the last bidder”.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    gumby1234gumby1234 Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I just show a dealer my coins. Hes either interested or not. If interested we work out a price or we don't, and then on to the next dealer with whatever coins the last one didn't buy.

    Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM

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    savitalesavitale Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think it is OK to say "Someone else already offered me $X, but I'm really looking for $Y". But divulging that a specific dealer made you a specific offer could be seen as giving away information intended to be confidential.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,911 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @MasonG said:
    If you're going to tell bidders what the other bidders are offering, you should probably let people know upfront that you're doing that whether they ask or not.

    edited to add... Would you be okay with Heritage or GC letting other bidders know what you bid for a coin? A lot of people wouldn't.

    This. If I knew a seller were getting to leverage my offer for a higher offer, I would pull my offer. It's always easier to be the second bidder.

    I’d say “It’s always easier to be the last bidder”.

    It's easiEST to be the last bidder. 😉

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    Project NumismaticsProject Numismatics Posts: 1,334 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This approach seems a bit unfair, unnecessary and gauche. If you want to get lots of exposure and maximize price, you should consider placing the material in an auction.

    When I sell to dealers at shows, I go with a sale price in mind. I walk the bourse and offer the coin first to the dealer with inventory that is most similar to the coin I’m trying to sell. I generally let the dealer make the first offer. If that offer meets the number in my head, I sell, if not then I counter or I move to the next. If 4 or 5 dealers with similar material can’t meet the number, I probably had unrealistic expectations and need to either adjust or sell the coin in a different venue.

    Flip the scenario around and pretend you are standing at a dealers table with 2-3 collectors interested in the same coin and the dealer started playing your offer off of others or conducted an impromptu auction. You’d likely be very angry.

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    streeterstreeter Posts: 4,312 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Your one and only coin show then do whatever floats your boat.

    Shopping for offers, not for me as a buyer.

    Your coins, your rules.

    Have a nice day
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    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,423 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If you go with your plan, I suggest that when a dealer makes an offer that's written on his business card that you also get a deposit from this dealer to ensure that he honors his offer should it be the highest. In any event, let us know how things go at the show and good luck.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

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    MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2022 5:33PM

    @PerryHall said:
    If you go with your plan, I suggest that when a dealer makes an offer that's written on his business card that you also get a deposit from this dealer to ensure that he honors his offer should it be the highest.

    Sounds like a good way to discourage offers. How does the dealer know he'll ever get his deposit back?

    edited to add... When you bid on Heritage or GC, are you required to make a deposit to ensure that you honor your bid?

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    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,423 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MasonG said:

    @PerryHall said:
    If you go with your plan, I suggest that when a dealer makes an offer that's written on his business card that you also get a deposit from this dealer to ensure that he honors his offer should it be the highest.

    Sounds like a good way to discourage offers. How does the dealer know he'll ever get his deposit back?

    I was being facetious. I guess my humor was too subtle. :D

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

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    MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2022 5:38PM

    @PerryHall said:

    @MasonG said:

    @PerryHall said:
    If you go with your plan, I suggest that when a dealer makes an offer that's written on his business card that you also get a deposit from this dealer to ensure that he honors his offer should it be the highest.

    Sounds like a good way to discourage offers. How does the dealer know he'll ever get his deposit back?

    I was being facetious. I guess my humor was too subtle. :D

    I guess. In my defense there is a fair amount of "dealers will screw you any chance they get" on this message board so it's hard to be sure of the intent of every post.

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    pendragon1998pendragon1998 Posts: 2,070 ✭✭✭

    Say you offer $5k on a coin. Then the seller goes off around the floor shopping it around. You don't know if you'll come out of it with the coin or not, so now you have to hold back $5k that you could otherwise buy something else with, until you find out if you "won." Having my money tied up like that would be irritating.

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,050 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @pendragon1998 said:
    Say you offer $5k on a coin. Then the seller goes off around the floor shopping it around. You don't know if you'll come out of it with the coin or not, so now you have to hold back $5k that you could otherwise buy something else with, until you find out if you "won." Having my money tied up like that would be irritating.

    If a $5,000 commitment is going to put a dealer in a tough position, he probably won’t be in business for very long.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    pendragon1998pendragon1998 Posts: 2,070 ✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @pendragon1998 said:
    Say you offer $5k on a coin. Then the seller goes off around the floor shopping it around. You don't know if you'll come out of it with the coin or not, so now you have to hold back $5k that you could otherwise buy something else with, until you find out if you "won." Having my money tied up like that would be irritating.

    If a $5,000 commitment is going to put a dealer in a tough position, he probably won’t be in business for very long.

    I was just pulling a number out of the air for example.

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