@hedgefundtradingdesk said:
The point is all of these are nuisance taxes: they reduce transactions, reduce utility, and probably reduce revenue.
The only way to be rid of these nuisances is if enough people are affected by them to encourage them to do something about it. "Not my problem" isn't a motivator but increasing the number of people who are impacted by record keeping and reporting requirements is a move in that direction.
Getting to hide your sales is MORE illegal and more problematic than missing a few receipts. You're just not likely to get caught unless the dollars are large.
Well, I'll grant you that it is a legitimate point, but I would also disagree on both practical and moral grounds.
There are tons of taxes out there that are commonly unreported and uncollected. Gambling winnings and use tax are the two most frequent, but technically every barter transaction should also be reported.
Why doesn't a gas station issue a tax form any time someone wins $100 on a scratch off? 1. Usually the person has offsetting losses which they don't bother to track. 2. The paperwork is cumbersome. 3. The government would lose lots of money as people would be angry that every scratch off win is met by a chef's kiss from the IRS.
Why isn't use tax collected by payment processers rather than merchants? It would be easy for Visa to remit use tax to California when you go on a spending spree in Vegas... Instead most people "break the law" by taking their goods home with them, unreported. And require all coin transactions to go on a card... so that the government can get its cut.
Even barter is technically taxable. You agree to mow the neighbors lawn during his vacation, in exchange for him plowing the snow while you are at the FUN show. But no one is issuing a W-4 to their neighbor...
The point is all of these are nuisance taxes: they reduce transactions, reduce utility, and probably reduce revenue. I think hassling people over reporting every coin transaction is harmful to the hobby, but it does give dealers a slight edge over collectors which I think is your objective. Anyway, it's clear I have an axe to grind, as do you, as does everyone. It will be interesting to see how ebay handles the revenue loss. Good luck!
P.S. One other point. If everyone's sales line is going to be automatically and accurately reported by software, what are 87k new agents going to do? Clearly they will be challenging the cost line. The problem with making a system much more efficient (as claimed for new reporting rules) but also demanding a vastly enlarged enforcement force is... they have to do something!
No change for me. I report everything.
Ebay won't see a revenue loss. People like me will make up the difference for any casual tax cheat that drops off. The buyers still have the same amount of money to spend. If you don't want it, it'll flow to me.
And, again, tax avoidance is not a moral or practical solution to bad tax law.
@jmlanzaf said:
And, again, tax avoidance is not a moral or practical solution to bad tax law.
Regarding tax laws (bad or otherwise), people don't care until they do.
True. Although I'm not sure the tax law is wrong here. Why shouldn't income taxes be due on the profits of coin sales? I mean, if you make them tax free, I'm going to give up my taxed salary in favor of earning untaxed coin profits. The 1099 issue is just an attempt to find the tax cheats. [See my previous post about the guy I know who hasn't reported what must amount to over $750,000 in sales and probably $200k in profits as he is seeking higher margin collectibles. ]
The feds are changing everything.
My bank has removed all its teller machines and installed new ones that will not accept cash deposits.
Now you have to go to a teller and make the deposit.
Just another way to keep track of what you are doing.
@tommyrusty7 said:
The feds are changing everything.
My bank has removed all its teller machines and installed new ones that will not accept cash deposits.
Now you have to go to a teller and make the deposit.
Just another way to keep track of what you are doing.
That's odd. I'm not aware of any change in bank reporting. Was there one?
@tommyrusty7 said:
The feds are changing everything.
My bank has removed all its teller machines and installed new ones that will not accept cash deposits.
Now you have to go to a teller and make the deposit.
Just another way to keep track of what you are doing.
Machine or human, how do you possibly make a deposit at a bank under the table? The bank knows exactly what you’re putting into what account.
@tommyrusty7 said:
The feds are changing everything.
My bank has removed all its teller machines and installed new ones that will not accept cash deposits.
Now you have to go to a teller and make the deposit.
Just another way to keep track of what you are doing.
Machine or human, how do you possibly make a deposit at a bank under the table? The bank knows exactly what you’re putting into what account.
@jmlanzaf said:
True. Although I'm not sure the tax law is wrong here. Why shouldn't income taxes be due on the profits of coin sales? I mean, if you make them tax free, I'm going to give up my taxed salary in favor of earning untaxed coin profits. The 1099 issue is just an attempt to find the tax cheats. [See my previous post about the guy I know who hasn't reported what must amount to over $750,000 in sales and probably $200k in profits as he is seeking higher margin collectibles. ]
Why shouldn't income taxes be due on the profits of coin sales?
In theory they should be.
The 1099 issue is just an attempt to find the tax cheats.
Imagine three ebay sellers, all of whom have 10k in sales.
Coin collector, paid $11k, lost $1k.
Coin dealer, paid $8k, made $2k
Seller of stolen goods, paid $0, made $10k
Which one does the IRS audit? Probably the collector. Losing money on $10k in sales, how preposterous! Lets see those mustard stained coin receipts!
I do understand what the IRS is trying to do here, but only collecting one half of an income statement has little information signal beyond the old IRS discriminant function system they've used for decades.
@tommyrusty7 said:
The feds are changing everything.
My bank has removed all its teller machines and installed new ones that will not accept cash deposits.
Now you have to go to a teller and make the deposit.
Just another way to keep track of what you are doing.
Machine or human, how do you possibly make a deposit at a bank under the table? The bank knows exactly what you’re putting into what account.
They sent me a very large 1099 last year, then later I noticed a flag on the tax screen saying to ignore it. Made no sense. I have called three times and been told it was correct once and incorrect twice. I extended my tax filing due to it. It is a large enough amount it can't be done wrong. Such a pain.
So from what I know I need to ignore the 1099, but in all honestly I sold enough to qualify and have it all in the sales, just need to have it in the right place.
@tincup said:
Yep.... they appear to be requiring more and more.
Must be why they are hiring 67,000 new IRS employees. To check more and more returns....
87,000
Simple-They want to track every penny. With 87,000 new agents they can audit every business tax return at least twice a year. And these 87,000 new agents will cost taxpayers a lot of money just to give them a paycheck. Due to forum rules I will not comment further on this subject.
@tincup said:
Yep.... they appear to be requiring more and more.
Must be why they are hiring 67,000 new IRS employees. To check more and more returns....
87,000
Simple-They want to track every penny. With 87,000 new agents they can audit every business tax return at least twice a year. And these 87,000 new agents will cost taxpayers a lot of money just to give them a paycheck. Due to forum rules I will not comment further on this subject.
This army of new IRS agents won't get vetted, hired, housed, and trained overnight. If there is a change in administration, this endeavor may not be funded (all spending bills originate in the House of Representatives) in which case it may not happen.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@jmlanzaf said:
True. Although I'm not sure the tax law is wrong here. Why shouldn't income taxes be due on the profits of coin sales? I mean, if you make them tax free, I'm going to give up my taxed salary in favor of earning untaxed coin profits. The 1099 issue is just an attempt to find the tax cheats. [See my previous post about the guy I know who hasn't reported what must amount to over $750,000 in sales and probably $200k in profits as he is seeking higher margin collectibles. ]
Why shouldn't income taxes be due on the profits of coin sales?
In theory they should be.
The 1099 issue is just an attempt to find the tax cheats.
Imagine three ebay sellers, all of whom have 10k in sales.
Coin collector, paid $11k, lost $1k.
Coin dealer, paid $8k, made $2k
Seller of stolen goods, paid $0, made $10k
Which one does the IRS audit? Probably the collector. Losing money on $10k in sales, how preposterous! Lets see those mustard stained coin receipts!
I do understand what the IRS is trying to do here, but only collecting one half of an income statement has little information signal beyond the old IRS discriminant function system they've used for decades.
Except, again, your focus is too narrow. They will definitely catch the guy I mentioned who has not paid taxes on $200,000 in income from an ebay business. This law is not aimed at collectors or garage sales.
@tommyrusty7 said:
Its aimed at everybody my friend!
I pay my taxes when I make a profit. It's just that as a hobbyist I often do not make a profit but would still have to file which pisses me off. I certainly do not want to pay the Self Employment tax as I am not into it for profit. I'm a collector not a business. So, I just asked that you ask you Congressman to reword the 1099-k reporting to something a bit more reasonable. $600 of sales is just nuts.
Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
$600.00 it the amount that triggers a 1099 being issued by a business to an independent contractor for services. It has been at this level for many many years. I guess the IRS feels that $600 is the thresh hold to be reported to minimize tax avoidance on ebay type sales as well. In my opinion, $600 is way to low.
You only receive a 1099-INT for interest if it is $10.00 or more. I never understood why the difference.
@Glen2022 said:
$600.00 it the amount that triggers a 1099 being issued by a business to an independent contractor for services. It has been at this level for many many years. I guess the IRS feels that $600 is the thresh hold to be reported to minimize tax avoidance on ebay type sales as well. In my opinion, $600 is way to low.
You only receive a 1099-INT for interest if it is $10.00 or more. I never understood why the difference.
Perhaps because the interest is taxable, while the sale isn’t necessarily so?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MasonG said:
I'm not so sure eBay is hurting. There are lots of coins for sale there. If some sellers leave, people will buy from the ones still there.
I agree, as I mentioned this earlier. The buyers aren't affected, nor is the price structure. If you're afraid of a 1099, feel free to get out of my way.
Ebay just doesn't want to have to issue the 1099s as it is unpaid work for them.
I will be winding down selling on eBay. Small time collector, I buy things from online auctions that I sometimes flip on eBay. Without much warning, the IRS now says I am running a one man business subject to employment taxes. Some things I bought last month and have receipts, other things I bought 20 years ago (where did I put those Teletrade receipts?) Buy a Saint when gold was $800/oz. and sell this year? The IRS wants to share in your good fortune. For $1,000-2000 profit after buying premiums and selling fees, I don’t need a $10,000 form 1099 to wrestle with.
The Philadelphia Mint: making coins since 1792. We make money by making money. Now in our 225th year thanks to no competition.
@PhillyJoe said:
I will be winding down selling on eBay. Small time collector, I buy things from online auctions that I sometimes flip on eBay. Without much warning, the IRS now says I am running a one man business subject to employment taxes. Some things I bought last month and have receipts, other things I bought 20 years ago (where did I put those Teletrade receipts?) Buy a Saint when gold was $800/oz. and sell this year? The IRS wants to share in your good fortune. For $1,000-2000 profit after buying premiums and selling fees, I don’t need a $10,000 form 1099 to wrestle with.
You can treat it a capital gains. No employment taxes.
You make $1000 on a coin, you owe taxes with or without the 1099.
@jmlanzaf said:
You make $1000 on a coin, you owe taxes with or without the 1099.
Based on a lot of the comments here, I get the impression people think it's the 1099 that makes them owe taxes and if they can be made to go away, there'd be no tax due.
@jmlanzaf said:
You make $1000 on a coin, you owe taxes with or without the 1099.
Based on a lot of the comments here, I get the impression people think it's the 1099 that makes them owe taxes and if they can be made to go away, there'd be no tax due.
Yeah. They sort of have it backwards. If they had paid their taxes, the FEDS wouldn't be tightening the 1099 requirements.
I of course will pay whatever I owe. As a hobby, I never kept track of my shipping costs, my time to pack and stand in line at the post office, mileage at 62 cents a mile and the safe deposit box. Not a problem. Whatever doesn’t sell in 2022 will stay in my collection. There won’t be a 1099 next year to worry about. I will spend my time visiting yard sales asking the sellers if they have their tax ID on file with the IRS.
The Philadelphia Mint: making coins since 1792. We make money by making money. Now in our 225th year thanks to no competition.
@PhillyJoe said:
I of course will pay whatever I owe. As a hobby, I never kept track of my shipping costs, my time to pack and stand in line at the post office, mileage at 62 cents a mile and the safe deposit box. Not a problem. Whatever doesn’t sell in 2022 will stay in my collection. There won’t be a 1099 next year to worry about. I will spend my time visiting yard sales asking the sellers if they have their tax ID on file with the IRS.
There is a garage sale exemption for used goods sold for less than purchase price. If the yard sales are a for profit venture, they should have a resale certificate.
@blu62vette said:
They sent me a very large 1099 last year, then later I noticed a flag on the tax screen saying to ignore it. Made no sense. I have called three times and been told it was correct once and incorrect twice. I extended my tax filing due to it. It is a large enough amount it can't be done wrong. Such a pain.
ignore at your own risk, you can bet the IRS won't ignore their copy of the same info.
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
What's all the fuss? Taxes are a necessary evil and above all else, the law. While tax code/law is a mile long, the IRS does a fairly decent job of providing everything you need to know on-line. You just have to wade through it and have the ability to comprehend.
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
@jmlanzaf said: Filing is not that big of a deal if you sold $2000 worth of coins and made a couple hundred bucks.
There in lies the problem...
Filing IS a big deal with thousands upon thousands of IRS pages, interpreting laws Congress has enacted.
The US Tax Code is up to 60,000+ pages!
One needs to hire a tax professional to ensure they are filing correctly, including taking the proper deductions, etc. Then they have to pay for that tax professional (that they can then deduct the cost of the tax professional), etc...
Now $2000 worth of coins sold is a loss to the seller.
Oh, but wait, there's more - now the Loss can be used three out of the next 5 years to offset other earnings!
Yes, Filing is EASY!
/s
The problem is the tax cheats. I know a guy who has been selling collectibles on ebay for almost 20 years... and never declared the income until recently. How, you ask? I'll tell you.
Back in the day neither eBay nor PayPal had to report to the IRS. So he ignored the income. He did about 50,000 gross. I don't know his net. When PayPal was forced to report to the IRS at the $20,000 mark, he created separate accounts for his wife and daughter to keep all 3 counts under $20k.
Only now with the lower threshold is he going to be forced to declare. And he's PISSED. He's threatening to stop selling on eBay and go back to just selling at flea markets where he can continue to hide the income.
It's people like him that the IRS is trying to find. And they should. He's not only avoiding the taxes he owes, he's also creating an unfair sales advantage with the stolen money. He, of course, also doesn't charge sales tax at the flea market.
No one likes taxes. But fairness requires that everyone plays by the same rules. And when people don't voluntarily report, the IRS needs to go looking for them.
I wish the NY sales tax folks would go to coin shows and flea markets and nail those cheats also. Unfortunately, it's too large an enforcement job.
Is the person in your post worried you will "out" them?
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
The IRS will only assume a zero cost basis if you don't provide a non-zero one.
Which requires documentation. I'm not familiar with an IRS that "takes your word for it."
Actually, they did take my word for it. You would only need documentation in an audit. You don't file documentation with your 1040. And the IRS will accept a reasonable cost basis because they know you didn't get it for free.
It happened to me. I called them. They asked me to write up the justification - no documentation required. They accepted my amended return with the letter of justification and sent me a 64 cent refund instead of the $12,000 bill.
So, you can assume this is going to be a huge problem. But for 99% of people, it won't be a problem at all.
I would also add that you either owe tax or you don't. Getting to hide your sales is MORE illegal and more problematic than missing a few receipts. You're just not likely to get caught unless the dollars are large.
Wonder what it cost the IRS to process/mail out that .64 cents refund.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
@jmlanzaf said: Filing is not that big of a deal if you sold $2000 worth of coins and made a couple hundred bucks.
There in lies the problem...
Filing IS a big deal with thousands upon thousands of IRS pages, interpreting laws Congress has enacted.
The US Tax Code is up to 60,000+ pages!
One needs to hire a tax professional to ensure they are filing correctly, including taking the proper deductions, etc. Then they have to pay for that tax professional (that they can then deduct the cost of the tax professional), etc...
Now $2000 worth of coins sold is a loss to the seller.
Oh, but wait, there's more - now the Loss can be used three out of the next 5 years to offset other earnings!
Yes, Filing is EASY!
/s
The problem is the tax cheats. I know a guy who has been selling collectibles on ebay for almost 20 years... and never declared the income until recently. How, you ask? I'll tell you.
Back in the day neither eBay nor PayPal had to report to the IRS. So he ignored the income. He did about 50,000 gross. I don't know his net. When PayPal was forced to report to the IRS at the $20,000 mark, he created separate accounts for his wife and daughter to keep all 3 counts under $20k.
Only now with the lower threshold is he going to be forced to declare. And he's PISSED. He's threatening to stop selling on eBay and go back to just selling at flea markets where he can continue to hide the income.
It's people like him that the IRS is trying to find. And they should. He's not only avoiding the taxes he owes, he's also creating an unfair sales advantage with the stolen money. He, of course, also doesn't charge sales tax at the flea market.
No one likes taxes. But fairness requires that everyone plays by the same rules. And when people don't voluntarily report, the IRS needs to go looking for them.
I wish the NY sales tax folks would go to coin shows and flea markets and nail those cheats also. Unfortunately, it's too large an enforcement job.
Is the person in your post worried you will "out" them?
I doubt it. The flea market crowd is shameless about these things. He's a friend of a friend. If I knew him better (last name or address), I would drop dime on him.
The IRS will only assume a zero cost basis if you don't provide a non-zero one.
Which requires documentation. I'm not familiar with an IRS that "takes your word for it."
Actually, they did take my word for it. You would only need documentation in an audit. You don't file documentation with your 1040. And the IRS will accept a reasonable cost basis because they know you didn't get it for free.
It happened to me. I called them. They asked me to write up the justification - no documentation required. They accepted my amended return with the letter of justification and sent me a 64 cent refund instead of the $12,000 bill.
So, you can assume this is going to be a huge problem. But for 99% of people, it won't be a problem at all.
I would also add that you either owe tax or you don't. Getting to hide your sales is MORE illegal and more problematic than missing a few receipts. You're just not likely to get caught unless the dollars are large.
Wonder what it cost the IRS to process/mail out that .64 cents refund.
Wonder what it cost the IRS to process/mail out that .64 cents refund.
Probably about as much as it cost the IRS to nab the guy that owed $100K in taxes
Lol. I'm sure it wasn't cheap. I also didn't really need it done. But they are reasonable, in my experience. After all, we went from a $10k+ bill to a 64 cent refund with just a letter of explanation and no receipts. I even offered to send them all the records and they told me not to bother.
I am genuinely curious if Heritage, Stacks, GC, CU, etc. have official corporate positions on whether auction sites should be forced to issue 1099-Ks to all their clientele.
The next question would be if they could/should be forced to track "cost basis" as well. In many cases, HA could prove that we customers lost money and that the whole paperwork chase was a waste of time. And CU could track transactions by Cert No. the same way the financial industry uses CUSIPs (Committee on Uniform Security Identification Procedures).
Just because eBay is the current punching bag, doesn't mean the new protocols won't be expanded across the industry someday. Look at the regulatory ratchet that has taken place in the financial industry as a blueprint.
My position is that most of the paperwork is a waste of time. Even legendary collectors who've sold famous collections recently, made more in their "real job" than in coins. And I'm guessing they have accountants and pay their taxes anyway.
I am genuinely curious if Heritage, Stacks, GC, CU, etc. have official corporate positions on whether auction sites should be forced to issue 1099-Ks to all their clientele.
The next question would be if they could/should be forced to track "cost basis" as well. In many cases, HA could prove that we customers lost money and that the whole paperwork chase was a waste of time. And CU could track transactions by Cert No. the same way the financial industry uses CUSIPs (Committee on Uniform Security Identification Procedures).
Just because eBay is the current punching bag, doesn't mean the new protocols won't be expanded across the industry someday. Look at the regulatory ratchet that has taken place in the financial industry as a blueprint.
My position is that most of the paperwork is a waste of time. Even legendary collectors who've sold famous collections recently, made more in their "real job" than in coins. And I'm guessing they have accountants and pay their taxes anyway.
@tincup said:
Yep.... they appear to be requiring more and more.
Must be why they are hiring 67,000 new IRS employees. To check more and more returns....
87,000
Simple-They want to track every penny. With 87,000 new agents they can audit every business tax return at least twice a year. And these 87,000 new agents will cost taxpayers a lot of money just to give them a paycheck. Due to forum rules I will not comment further on this subject.
This army of new IRS agents won't get vetted, hired, housed, and trained overnight. If there is a change in administration, this endeavor may not be funded (all spending bills originate in the House of Representatives) in which case it may not happen.
@hedgefundtradingdesk said:
The next question would be if they could/should be forced to track "cost basis" as well. In many cases, HA could prove that we customers lost money and that the whole paperwork chase was a waste of time. And CU could track transactions by Cert No. the same way the financial industry uses CUSIPs (Committee on Uniform Security Identification Procedures).
Requiring this sounds like a good way to increase buyers fees.
@tincup said:
Yep.... they appear to be requiring more and more.
Must be why they are hiring 67,000 new IRS employees. To check more and more returns....
...just a reminder about the new requirement for the IRS agents being hired to collect from coin collectors trying to flip a coin for a buck! Don't Mess with the IRS!
I've quit ebay - I am just a small time hobbyist that had been selling stuff there for many years that I'd accumulated over time but have no record of the original purchases or the odd weird finds at yard sales and thrift shops. I'm not gonna track the mileage related to this and home office expenses and what not....I've just moved everything I sell to craig's list and facebook marketplace. I rarely even look at ebay now where I used to frequent it quite a bit. Not their fault just doesn't take much to hit $600 and I don't have the time and patience to deal with all that crap related to it. It just isn't the place for me now for these kind of transactions.
Jim
Definitely jealous of anyone who thinks that navigating the tax code is "easy". It takes me several weeks each year, and the state and local can be more hassle than the IRS.
As a small business man, I get audited all the time [usu state and local] and they have never once even found as much as $100 in additional liability. Usually it's none at all. Why should the agents care? They get paid exactly the same either way. But the cost of compliance for me is colossal.
My friend who runs a major investment fund has never been audited a single time. They know he'll throw the world's sharpest tax attorneys at them if they try.
I don't get the IRS paranoia and virtue signaling. If you work in all your deductions and are low income you will owe nothing, and probably get money back. I once paid far more than I needed to, saw the scary "tax resolution" ads in the media and woke up to the reality that I was not a target. As far as I'm concerned the only good federal spending is for entitlements, as people used to tell me the money gets wasted and spent on corporate welfare.
Pay what you owe but no more, there are many good tax software systems out there.
@tincup said:
Yep.... they appear to be requiring more and more.
Must be why they are hiring 67,000 new IRS employees. To check more and more returns....
...just a reminder about the new requirement for the IRS agents being hired to collect from coin collectors trying to flip a coin for a buck! Don't Mess with the IRS!
They've been starved for funds for many years, afaik they are still running Fortran and Cobol in their computers. They will be updating customer service. The scare tactics are for high income evasion, for drug dealers and gangs in the cities.
Customer service at the IRS is a joke. If you need to speak with someone on the phone it could take days or weeks trying every day. I’ve had clients call and wait on hold for hours only to get a message that they are not accepting calls anymore and get hung up on.
Cuts to the IRS staff have been happening for years and I doubt the vast majority of people on here will notice any difference in the audit frequency once the new agents are on staff.
A huge number of audits now are computer generated from errors in reporting that can easily be resolved by speaking to someone once that letter comes in the mail. Right now its impossible to call, and people are stuck mailing correspondence back and forth for months.
Not all tax professionals charge huge fees and the software is getting easier and easier for the do it yourself people.
I don’t like paying tax any more than the next guy, but the 1099 k is not what makes the tax owed. The sale is.
Comments
Way to tight rope walk the politics. Lol.
No change for me. I report everything.
Ebay won't see a revenue loss. People like me will make up the difference for any casual tax cheat that drops off. The buyers still have the same amount of money to spend. If you don't want it, it'll flow to me.
And, again, tax avoidance is not a moral or practical solution to bad tax law.
Regarding tax laws (bad or otherwise), people don't care until they do.
Done.
True. Although I'm not sure the tax law is wrong here. Why shouldn't income taxes be due on the profits of coin sales? I mean, if you make them tax free, I'm going to give up my taxed salary in favor of earning untaxed coin profits. The 1099 issue is just an attempt to find the tax cheats. [See my previous post about the guy I know who hasn't reported what must amount to over $750,000 in sales and probably $200k in profits as he is seeking higher margin collectibles. ]
The feds are changing everything.
My bank has removed all its teller machines and installed new ones that will not accept cash deposits.
Now you have to go to a teller and make the deposit.
Just another way to keep track of what you are doing.
That's odd. I'm not aware of any change in bank reporting. Was there one?
Machine or human, how do you possibly make a deposit at a bank under the table? The bank knows exactly what you’re putting into what account.
I could put it into your account.
Why shouldn't income taxes be due on the profits of coin sales?
In theory they should be.
The 1099 issue is just an attempt to find the tax cheats.
Imagine three ebay sellers, all of whom have 10k in sales.
Coin collector, paid $11k, lost $1k.
Coin dealer, paid $8k, made $2k
Seller of stolen goods, paid $0, made $10k
Which one does the IRS audit? Probably the collector. Losing money on $10k in sales, how preposterous! Lets see those mustard stained coin receipts!
I do understand what the IRS is trying to do here, but only collecting one half of an income statement has little information signal beyond the old IRS discriminant function system they've used for decades.
PLEASE DO.. THANKS
They sent me a very large 1099 last year, then later I noticed a flag on the tax screen saying to ignore it. Made no sense. I have called three times and been told it was correct once and incorrect twice. I extended my tax filing due to it. It is a large enough amount it can't be done wrong. Such a pain.
So from what I know I need to ignore the 1099, but in all honestly I sold enough to qualify and have it all in the sales, just need to have it in the right place.
Simple-They want to track every penny. With 87,000 new agents they can audit every business tax return at least twice a year. And these 87,000 new agents will cost taxpayers a lot of money just to give them a paycheck. Due to forum rules I will not comment further on this subject.
This army of new IRS agents won't get vetted, hired, housed, and trained overnight. If there is a change in administration, this endeavor may not be funded (all spending bills originate in the House of Representatives) in which case it may not happen.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Except, again, your focus is too narrow. They will definitely catch the guy I mentioned who has not paid taxes on $200,000 in income from an ebay business. This law is not aimed at collectors or garage sales.
Its aimed at everybody my friend!
I pay my taxes when I make a profit. It's just that as a hobbyist I often do not make a profit but would still have to file which pisses me off. I certainly do not want to pay the Self Employment tax as I am not into it for profit. I'm a collector not a business. So, I just asked that you ask you Congressman to reword the 1099-k reporting to something a bit more reasonable. $600 of sales is just nuts.
I'd like to see the 1099 threshold go from $600, to something more like $2,500, or maybe $5,000. $600 is beyond silly IMO.
Dave
I am sure Ebay is hurting from this as well.
I bet there are a large number of sellers who quit due to this law which is why they are making it easy for us to lobby Congress.😉
$600.00 it the amount that triggers a 1099 being issued by a business to an independent contractor for services. It has been at this level for many many years. I guess the IRS feels that $600 is the thresh hold to be reported to minimize tax avoidance on ebay type sales as well. In my opinion, $600 is way to low.
You only receive a 1099-INT for interest if it is $10.00 or more. I never understood why the difference.
Perhaps because the interest is taxable, while the sale isn’t necessarily so?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
They (The IRS) are COMING after EVERYONE!
https://home.treasury.gov/news/featured-stories/the-case-for-a-robust-attack-on-the-tax-gap
They (the IRS) want's access to all records of money transfer!
The IRS can be worse than a paperboy looking for $2
BST references available on request
http:/https://dailydot.com/debug/ebay-tax-reporting-1099//
BST references available on request
I'm not so sure eBay is hurting. There are lots of coins for sale there. If some sellers leave, people will buy from the ones still there.
I agree, as I mentioned this earlier. The buyers aren't affected, nor is the price structure. If you're afraid of a 1099, feel free to get out of my way.
Ebay just doesn't want to have to issue the 1099s as it is unpaid work for them.
I will be winding down selling on eBay. Small time collector, I buy things from online auctions that I sometimes flip on eBay. Without much warning, the IRS now says I am running a one man business subject to employment taxes. Some things I bought last month and have receipts, other things I bought 20 years ago (where did I put those Teletrade receipts?) Buy a Saint when gold was $800/oz. and sell this year? The IRS wants to share in your good fortune. For $1,000-2000 profit after buying premiums and selling fees, I don’t need a $10,000 form 1099 to wrestle with.
You can treat it a capital gains. No employment taxes.
You make $1000 on a coin, you owe taxes with or without the 1099.
Based on a lot of the comments here, I get the impression people think it's the 1099 that makes them owe taxes and if they can be made to go away, there'd be no tax due.
Yeah. They sort of have it backwards. If they had paid their taxes, the FEDS wouldn't be tightening the 1099 requirements.
I of course will pay whatever I owe. As a hobby, I never kept track of my shipping costs, my time to pack and stand in line at the post office, mileage at 62 cents a mile and the safe deposit box. Not a problem. Whatever doesn’t sell in 2022 will stay in my collection. There won’t be a 1099 next year to worry about. I will spend my time visiting yard sales asking the sellers if they have their tax ID on file with the IRS.
There is a garage sale exemption for used goods sold for less than purchase price. If the yard sales are a for profit venture, they should have a resale certificate.
[Yes, I know you were trying to be funny. ]
ignore at your own risk, you can bet the IRS won't ignore their copy of the same info.
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
What's all the fuss? Taxes are a necessary evil and above all else, the law. While tax code/law is a mile long, the IRS does a fairly decent job of providing everything you need to know on-line. You just have to wade through it and have the ability to comprehend.
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
Is the person in your post worried you will "out" them?
Wonder what it cost the IRS to process/mail out that .64 cents refund.
Probably about as much as it cost the IRS to nab the guy that owed $100K in taxes
I doubt it. The flea market crowd is shameless about these things. He's a friend of a friend. If I knew him better (last name or address), I would drop dime on him.
Lol. I'm sure it wasn't cheap. I also didn't really need it done. But they are reasonable, in my experience. After all, we went from a $10k+ bill to a 64 cent refund with just a letter of explanation and no receipts. I even offered to send them all the records and they told me not to bother.
I am genuinely curious if Heritage, Stacks, GC, CU, etc. have official corporate positions on whether auction sites should be forced to issue 1099-Ks to all their clientele.
The next question would be if they could/should be forced to track "cost basis" as well. In many cases, HA could prove that we customers lost money and that the whole paperwork chase was a waste of time. And CU could track transactions by Cert No. the same way the financial industry uses CUSIPs (Committee on Uniform Security Identification Procedures).
Just because eBay is the current punching bag, doesn't mean the new protocols won't be expanded across the industry someday. Look at the regulatory ratchet that has taken place in the financial industry as a blueprint.
My position is that most of the paperwork is a waste of time. Even legendary collectors who've sold famous collections recently, made more in their "real job" than in coins. And I'm guessing they have accountants and pay their taxes anyway.
Totally agree.
most long term collectors are just trying to break even at some point
... "I have accounts pay for it all" ...
We can only hope it’s not funded.
Requiring this sounds like a good way to increase buyers fees.
...just a reminder about the new requirement for the IRS agents being hired to collect from coin collectors trying to flip a coin for a buck! Don't Mess with the IRS!
BST references available on request
I've quit ebay - I am just a small time hobbyist that had been selling stuff there for many years that I'd accumulated over time but have no record of the original purchases or the odd weird finds at yard sales and thrift shops. I'm not gonna track the mileage related to this and home office expenses and what not....I've just moved everything I sell to craig's list and facebook marketplace. I rarely even look at ebay now where I used to frequent it quite a bit. Not their fault just doesn't take much to hit $600 and I don't have the time and patience to deal with all that crap related to it. It just isn't the place for me now for these kind of transactions.
Jim
Definitely jealous of anyone who thinks that navigating the tax code is "easy". It takes me several weeks each year, and the state and local can be more hassle than the IRS.
As a small business man, I get audited all the time [usu state and local] and they have never once even found as much as $100 in additional liability. Usually it's none at all. Why should the agents care? They get paid exactly the same either way. But the cost of compliance for me is colossal.
My friend who runs a major investment fund has never been audited a single time. They know he'll throw the world's sharpest tax attorneys at them if they try.
I don't get the IRS paranoia and virtue signaling. If you work in all your deductions and are low income you will owe nothing, and probably get money back. I once paid far more than I needed to, saw the scary "tax resolution" ads in the media and woke up to the reality that I was not a target. As far as I'm concerned the only good federal spending is for entitlements, as people used to tell me the money gets wasted and spent on corporate welfare.
Pay what you owe but no more, there are many good tax software systems out there.
They've been starved for funds for many years, afaik they are still running Fortran and Cobol in their computers. They will be updating customer service. The scare tactics are for high income evasion, for drug dealers and gangs in the cities.
Customer service at the IRS is a joke. If you need to speak with someone on the phone it could take days or weeks trying every day. I’ve had clients call and wait on hold for hours only to get a message that they are not accepting calls anymore and get hung up on.
Cuts to the IRS staff have been happening for years and I doubt the vast majority of people on here will notice any difference in the audit frequency once the new agents are on staff.
A huge number of audits now are computer generated from errors in reporting that can easily be resolved by speaking to someone once that letter comes in the mail. Right now its impossible to call, and people are stuck mailing correspondence back and forth for months.
Not all tax professionals charge huge fees and the software is getting easier and easier for the do it yourself people.
I don’t like paying tax any more than the next guy, but the 1099 k is not what makes the tax owed. The sale is.
My Ebay Store