Help with Sheldon number on a 1797 Draped Bust Large Cent Reverse of 97 with Stems.

jesbroken

OBVERSE
1st thing. 1st 7 appears(worn so not positive on this feature) to have 2 denticles below the Foot and the 2nd 7 appears to have one.
2nd. The R in LIBERTY practically touches the hair.
3rd. The top curl is to the right of the B in LIBERTY
4th. The left side of upright of T in LIBERTY above the forehead and hair
5th. Compact date with last 7 high.
REVERSE
First thing I noticed on this coin was the central right leaves were the heighth of the left leg of the M in AMERICA. Only a few are this high.
2nd, Wide denominator with 2nd 0 under downward ribbon
3rd. Leaf touches T in CENT
4th. Rt Stem points toward the upper left leg of the A in AMERICA
5th. Long Rt Stem
6th. Bottom Rt of E in ONE centers on the T in CENT.

I find this to be an S-124. I am trying to learn to become more efficient at the Sheldon numbers for the early cents, so please tell me where I've gone wrong or if something I have left out that ruins my conclusion.
Thank you for your help.
Jim

jesbroken

Let me try this again.
Jim

WilliamF

I believe S-124 is correct, there are a few others that have nearly all of these same markers (S-122, S-125, S-127)
S-125 and S-122 both have a variation on the reverse where the right stem is pointing lower than the top of the last A in AMERICA, rules those 2 out...
one of the markers on S-127 that does not line up with your coin (i'm not 100% sure on this because of the wear on yours) is the placement of the date relative to the dentils, it is shifted over slightly to the left.

Everything else that is close has other markers that are different than your coin, I think you are right on as an S-124
What resource are you using? I have the 'Redbook for Half Cents & Large Cents' and I also use this NGC resource, it is very helpful as well.
https://www.ngccoin.com/variety-plus/united-states/cents/draped-bust-cents-1796-1807/812419/

I like the coin, it has a nice clear date and a slightly off-center strike, cool

jesbroken

Thank you William, I was wonderiing whether anyone was interested in giving me a hand. I know it's a lot of trouble and probably shouldn't ask. I just love this coin and spent a couple of hours and 4 books trying to determine the validity of my selection of S-124. I use mainly William Noyes U.S. Large Cents 1793-1814, Robert Powers Large Cent Variety Identification Guide, Breen's Large Cent Book, and several other books and even one set of notes I have. Love these coins. If only I had started 30 years or so ago, but the reason I didn't was there was no good literature for them. Now there is. I just discovered the NGC Variety Plus website for Large Cents in the last couple of months and at first did not find it user friendly, but once I figured it out, I like it very much, especially that it offers several photos of the same Sheldon number and good photos I might add.
Again, I thank you so much for your support now and in the past, as it is truly most helpful.
Jim

jesbroken

@WilliamF
BTW, here is the Large Cent Album 1793-1807 that DinosaurMan made me. I love it.
Jim

Walkerguy21D

Very nice album, Jim!

I'm not sold on your '97 being S 124 though.
The 1 in the date of your coin is not a blunt style "1"; the serif or point of your 1 nearly touches the hair.
On the reverse, your left ribbon looks to be too vertical. But maybe my book is wrong?

hbarbee

Within the series S-122 through S-127, there is enough detail on the reverse of your coin for the positions of the right stem and the E and T of ONE CENT to eliminate all but the S-124, so you may be correct.

LanceNewmanOCC

in all the large cent attribution threads, i have been wondering for years now, do you large cent guys check the NCs as well?

i would be but after scouring my files, the only conclusion i can come to is i accidentally dragged it into an obscure folder that none of my searches have turned up or the worst-case scenario, i either didn't back it up and/or deleted it.

do the large cent attribution books contain them as well?

hbarbee

A quality reference such as this one will cover the NCs just as thoroughly as the Sheldons:

jesbroken

Yes, I have most of the books and Robert's book above and William Noye's Large Cents 1793-1814 have the NC's, as photo'd below.
Jim

jesbroken

@Walkerguy21D
Greg, the S-124 does not have a blunt 1 in the date, as is pictured below from NGC's Variety Plus and in all my books.
Jim

WilliamF

@jesbroken said:
@WilliamF
BTW, here is the Large Cent Album 1793-1807 that DinosaurMan made me. I love it.
Jim

He's making me one right now as well, we were spitballing ideas and he sent me as a reference a picture of yours that he had made "for another forumite"... I was wondering who that was
I love it too! I think they're just great!
He's making me one for Large Cents (1793-1857) and also Albums for Washington Quarters (1932-1998)

jesbroken

Cool, I love mine. Let's see some pics of yours when you get them.
Jim

WilliamF

@jesbroken said:
Cool, I love mine. Let's see some pics of yours when you get them.
Jim

For sure, he said it's going to be a while yet because of work/life but I will definitely show them off when I get them, they'll probably get their own thread

TheRegulator

Had some time to look at this tonight.

I've got it pegged as S-138.

OBVERSE:
JHF looks to be just left of center of T.
Tops of 7s in the date are not parallel. They kinda dip inward.
Both of these diagnostics match the S-138.

The S-124 has nearly parallel tops of 7s and JHF about even with the left upright of T.

REVERSE:
As you mentioned, the leaf group near (A)M(ERICA) eliminates most varieties.
Looks like the 124 and 138 reverses are very similar. The biggest difference I could see from the details available is the inside berry next to the (CEN)T relative to the lower tip of the right serif. The berry on the S-124 is a bit lower and the berry on the 138 is a bit higher. Yours appears to match the S-138.

Plus, S-138 is an R-1, which increases the likelihood. Starting with more common varieties is always a good bet.

Just my thoughts.

Walkerguy21D

@TheRegulator, nice work.

I used to own the OPs coin, and sold it thinking it was a duplicate:

This coin was attributed by one of the best in the world.

I never studied the lower grade one carefully, but a cursory look over led me to believe it was a duplicate. And now I’m more convinced.

WilliamF

@TheRegulator said:
Had some time to look at this tonight.

I've got it pegged as S-138.

OBVERSE:
JHF looks to be just left of center of T.
Tops of 7s in the date are not parallel. They kinda dip inward.
Both of these diagnostics match the S-138.

The S-124 has nearly parallel tops of 7s and JHF about even with the left upright of T.

REVERSE:
As you mentioned, the leaf group near (A)M(ERICA) eliminates most varieties.
Looks like the 124 and 138 reverses are very similar. The biggest difference I could see from the details available is the inside berry next to the (CEN)T relative to the lower tip of the right serif. The berry on the S-124 is a bit lower and the berry on the 138 is a bit higher. Yours appears to match the S-138.

Plus, S-138 is an R-1, which increases the likelihood. Starting with more common varieties is always a good bet.

Just my thoughts.

Wow you got into it a lot deeper than I did!
I don't have much experience attributing the draped bust large cents, I didn't realize there were so many tiny diagnostics to look for, I guess i needed to go past all the main markers and into the nitty grittys like berry placement, I see what your talking about and stand (actually I'm sitting ) corrected.

jesbroken

@TheRegulator
Thank you again, for your help. It appears that you are correct in regards to the berries, which I did not consider their alignment with rulers, which I have now done and will continue to do in the future.
@Walkerguy21D
I told you I did not cherrypick you. lol In fact, when I bought this from you, I didn't even own a book other than Breen's.
Jim

Walkerguy21D

@jesbroken said:
@TheRegulator

@Walkerguy21D
I told you I did not cherrypick you. lol In fact, when I bought this from you, I didn't even own a book other than Breen's.
Jim

Lol, I know that, Jim - it’s just been fun watching you become an EAC guy!