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Why isn't Roger Maris in the Hall of Fame?
CardGeek
Posts: 400 ✭✭✭
I would think this guy would be in. He's one of the most famous baseball players ever. Breaking Babe Ruth's single season home run record pretty much cemented his name in popular culture. Maybe he doesn't have the greatest career stats. Why has he been passed over? Before my time.
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He was an MVP the year before he broke the HR record (and the year he broke it too).
Because he didn’t get enough votes
Because except for a a couple seasons, he basically was average...
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/221894-the-king-without-a-crown-should-roger-maris-be-in-the-hall-of-fame
That record stood for 37 years. Pretty huge accomplishment. Was he cheating?
Ken Burns baseball docuseries says that Maris started getting death threats and hate mail and stuff when he got close to the record. And that lots of people hated him for the rest of his career for having the nerve to break Babe Ruths record. I think Burns says Maris wished he had never broken it because of the response from the public and probably other players too. I'm sure it lead to his career being so short.
He's short across the board IMO except for the fame part, which he does have. Bunch of players ahead of Maris in the HOF discussion.
I've actually changed my mind about Maris. As others have said, he clearly falls short on the career stats, and there is simply no way of looking at it that places Maris above Dwight Evans, Bobby Bonds, Bobby Murcer, or several other better right fielders ignored by the HOF. But, Maris is way, way more famous than any baseball player not in the HOF, and he didn't get famous for having great teammates (although he did have great teammates), he got famous for breaking the most famous record not just in baseball, but in all of sports. And, just as importantly to me, inducting Maris would be an indirect way to acknowledge that not only did Maris set that record, he holds that record to this day.
My dream is that the HOF will induct both Roger Maris and Bobby Bonds while Taterhead Bonds, King of the Mutants is still alive to see it.
You don't think Barry Bonds could have hit 73 in 2001 without cheating when Maris hit 61 in 1961? That's 40 years of technological advances between the two. I realize Barry Bonds isn't the most humble guy.
Aaron Judge is on pace for 65+. I think it's kinda interesting that his mic failed during the all star game. Judge had something like 900 unique cards graded by PSA before he played a major league game. Maybe he's the chosen one.
it is entirely possible that Maris cheated on his way to 61 as it certainly was a statistical anomaly for him. in fact, it puts me very much in mind of Brady Anderson in the mid 90s. 1961 was the same season that Mantle missed time due to the botched steroid injection he received during the season.
as for the HOF, he had a 2 year anomaly, then was fairly average.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I think to speculate on anyone cheating is unfair. Citing proof and linking to articles I am all for. But I hate it when people make accusations against someone’s legacy. It is possible that any player since steroids were invented cheated. But I hate it when we make the argument on stats and conjecture.
To use an analogy in the sportscard world - I bought my most expensive card ever last year which was 3x more than I ever paid for a card. One could surmise I stole the money for that card because paying that much is a statistical anomaly. Of course I didn’t but It would suck to be labeled a thief without any evidence.
I wouldn't say he's more famous than Pete Rose. And he's probably relatively even on fame with Joe Jackson.
But agreed with your thought, it would be an interesting thing to consider Barry Bonds seeing Maris in first.
Sammy Sosa without the PEDs
Barry Bonds was trained to be a baseball player since he was a child. Kind of like Tiger Woods. I don't know who trained Tiger Woods. But, Barry Bonds was taught by some of the best baseball players in the world.
Maybe I see your point about Joe Jackson.
Maris’s career stats will continue to be evaluated by future veterans committees, so for those pulling for him, there’s always a possibility.
Personally, I regard Maris still to be baseball’s season Home Run Leader, excluding Bonds, McGuire and Sosa. If Aaron Judge eclipses him, it’ll be quite an accomplishment.
Similarly, at least in my opinion, Hank Aaron remains baseball’s all time Home Run leader to this day, regardless of Bud Selig, who was complicit in the era of rampant steroid abuse.
There is pretty clearly no ball being thrown or hit in this video.
The pitcher has a ball. The catcher has a ball. The dude in the stands has a ball. Nobody is throwing or hitting anything though.
This video would be real easy to edit too.
The announcer calls it as soon as Maris swings.
In the 60s-90s and most of the 2000s most people couldn't even watch this video easily.
Incidentally, my birthday is Mar15. Coincidence? shrug My mom has a cesarean scar.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=4hSNO_PhSnI
He absolutely legitimately hit 61 in '61, no ifs and or buts about it!!! Given the number of legitimate reporters covering the race between him and Mantle and the number of fans attending the games, there is no possible way any of it could have been staged. I've always been a big Maris fan, but don't see how it would be possible to make it into the Hall after an 11-year career. If that were possible, then how come nobody attempts to make the case for Munson getting in?
The right fielder, if he's in the frame at all, when the ball is hit he is standing about 1 foot from the wall. He doesn't backpedal and turn or anything. Then when it cuts to the close up, it looks like there's something in front of him. The announcer and the right fielder had no doubt.
I'm sure tons of reporters covered the story. But, on this day nearly all the reporters covering the story got the report off the wire. That's how news traveled back then. In the movie The Natural, and I know this isn't a good source, they talk about how some reporters would write the stories on the games before the games were even played.
I think you might be surprised what can be staged.
It's also interesting to me that the wall in that video is about 3 feet high. Nothing like that in MLB since I've been watching baseball.
Check out the movie *61 that Billy Crystal did in 2001
IMF
IMO Munson had a better case than Maris. I would not be shocked if either/both made it someday from the Veteran’s committee.
Potentially one of the biggest days in baseball history. Nobody seated in the upper deck. The camera probably wasn't supposed to capture the upper deck.
In the video the right fielder looks like he's wearing the number 9. I changed the contrast on this image. In the video his uniform is remarkably white for an away uniform. Which makes it look like Maris is hitting the ball to himself.
Lou Clinton was the Red Sox right fielder that day. According to the record he wore the number 19 for the 1961 season only. The number is really blurry.
It's likely that nobody in baseball history hasn't cheated on this record.
So you think Maris's 61 HR season is a fraud?
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
Yes, clearly they got every fan in the stadium to react at the same time and be in on the scam.
Can this nonsensical direction this thread has taken please stop?
I felt my IQ drop just by reading the comments in this thread. At least it still clings to 3 figures, the same seems not to apply about most who have posted here.
Unless otherwise specified my posts represent only my opinion, not fact.
I’m a big fan of Maris and his cards. My dad ran into him and Whitey Herzog in a bar and they had drinks and talked baseball for 3 hours.
Kiss me twice.....let's party.
I didn't know it was fake when I started this thread. I don't talk to people about baseball. If you watch the video it's obviously fake.
I liked baseball and baseball cards when I was a kid. Nearly all my baseball knowledge comes from reading Beckett and trading sports cards when I was in junior high and high school. I've been researching sports and sports cards again for the past couple years and watching all the Dodgers games I can. Maybe I'm the last person on the planet who didn't know this.
Ford Frick was a sports writer and broadcaster before he became NL president in the late 30s and commissioner of baseball in the late 50s. The Ford C. Frick Award is given out by MLB to broadcasters annually.
The HOF has really gone downhill and has become the hall of pretty good so Maris should be in.
I do not believe he belongs in the Hall. His stats, 275 career HR, .260 batting average, and 38.2 WAR are nowhere near numbers to qualify for the Hall. Take out the 2-year span in which he hit 100 HR and he averages 17.5 HR per year the rest of his career (which only lasted 12 years total). His 38.2 WAR ranks him 595th overall, tied with Ray Langford and Bill Madlock. Take out the fact that he was a Yankee, he would not have anyone thinking he belongs in the Hall.
I wouldn't mind players getting into the HOF for extraordinary accomplishments..... Maris, Mattingly, Munson, Garvey, Dave Parker, Dale Murphy (another back to back MVP winner like Maris was), Keith Hernandez ~ all of them MVP's ~ all of them huge stars in their time.... 500 homer's and 3k hits arent the only qualifications certainly. It's hard to watch average NFL players and even convicts get into the NFL HOF while MLB struggles to acknowledge generational stars ~ in many cases careers like Dave Parker, Steve Garvey and Dale Murphy made the All Star team in almost every season in which they played.... Maris is an extraordinary example of stardom. Thurman Munson dies in a plane crash and loses out in more ways than one...... It takes decades often for the narratives to soften for the MLB HOF voting members to offer their "peace pipe" & get excellence recognized. I do not agree with every decision the Veterans Committee makes but I am appreciative there is a mechanism to get guys in after the Voters have spoken for 10 years time. As they say in the legal system: I'd rather see a guilty man go free than an innocent man go to prison.... Nobody is going to mistake George Kell or Bill Mazeroski for Cal Ripken or Reggie Jackson.... Kell and Maz both got in ~ it doesnt tarnish Cal or Reggie in the least.
Aaron Judge is almost certainly on something, they’re just better about avoiding tests these days.
I was actually thinking you're the only person on the planet that thinks this since I have NEVER heard this in my almost 50 years of following baseball as closely and as deep as anyone can.
If Judge breaks the record this year, it will be 61 years after Maris hit 61 in '61.
buying O-Pee-Chee (OPC) baseball
Honestly I don't care one way or the other. The record is completely corrupt. I don't think anybody can argue reasonably that it isn't. Pretty much the only thing that I've learned about baseball and sports cards in the past few years is that I don't want to be involved.
Still waiting on my last PSA submission. 1 year, 4 months. Seems about right for the situation. I'll probably get all 6s.
And yet you call yourself CardGeek. Is this new new Crisser?
This thread took a hard left turn since my last login.
https://x-files.fandom.com/wiki/Babe_Ruth
Please put in The Cobra and Munson! I also wouldn't mind seeing Mattingly, Murph and KHernandez either.
Magic The Gathering cards mostly since sports cards dumped in the 90s.
I wrote a whole long rant and deleted it. This is the short version.
What has happened to sports cards in the past 20 years really bothers me. It's bleeding over in to MTG.
Seeing this video just kinds of turns me off to sports in general.
The online betting stuff really bothers me too. Considering how corruption seems to be rampant. What if a lot of people had money on Maris not breaking this record and the commissioner just gave it to him for publicity. McGwire said that breaking the single season home run record was a gift from the guy upstairs. I'm sure he meant god. Sarcasm in text is tough. What if I'm a professional athlete and I use my nieces phone to bet the under. Or have my sister do it. Or my brothers friend. Or what if the book wins 10% more often than he should, mysteriously. Or maybe the book would only have to win the big ones 10% more often than they should. I don't know the math.
Playing competitive games most of my life tells me that when people can cheat on stuff like this, they tend to cheat.
I really don't think there are fixes to a lot of the problem in these industries. Or in life, for that matter. I like stuff like this more than almost anybody.
Ford Frick was a good buddy of Babe Ruth's he did not want anyone breaking the Babe's record. He was willing to go to any length to ensure that it did not happen to the point of stating Ruth's record woudl stand as it took place in 154 games whereas Maris needed 161 games. Ford Frick then decreed that if Maris broke the record it would have an "asterisks" next to it thus tainting it for Maris and demeaned him to the nation.
By ALL accounts over the past 60+ years both Roger Maris and his surviving family were decent, honest, kind, god-fearing people.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Ford+Frick+"Roger+Maris"+ruth&ei=QbjpYqjFE-3YkPIPl6aHsAE&ved=0ahUKEwjo6Yq-rKn5AhVtLEQIHRfTARYQ4dUDCA0&uact=5&oq=Ford+Frick+"Roger+Maris"+ruth&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAM6BwgAEEcQsAM6BQgAEJECOgUILhCRAjoRCC4QgAQQsQMQgwEQxwEQ0QM6CAguELEDEIMBOgsILhCABBCxAxCDAToFCAAQgAQ6CwgAEIAEELEDEIMBOhAILhCxAxCDARDHARDRAxBDOgQILhBDOgQIABBDOg0ILhCxAxCDARDUAhBDOggIABCxAxCDAToKCAAQsQMQgwEQQzoKCC4QsQMQgwEQQzoICC4QgAQQsQM6CgguELEDEIMBEAo6CAguENQCEJECOgsILhCABBDHARCvAToFCC4QgAQ6CAguEIAEENQCOgUIABCGAzoGCAAQHhAWOggIABAeEBYQCjoGCAAQHhANOgQIABAeOgUIIRCgAToFCCEQqwJKBAhBGABKBQhAEgExSgQIRhgAUIUEWNxmYN5oaARwAXgAgAHPAogBziqSAQgwLjMxLjIuMZgBAKABAcgBCLgBA8ABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz
Yes, folks I do realize, this is likley tantamount to "playing chess with pigeons" :sigh
Unless otherwise specified my posts represent only my opinion, not fact.
Aaron Judge is 6' 7 and over 280 lbs. But his size doesn't guarantee anything. His personal hitting coach helped Judge from the beginning of his Yankee career, teaching him a set of unorthodox swing mechanics which potentiate his power.
Your cynical speculation on what Judge is accomplishing is just conjecture.
Also he pretty much weighed the same prior his first call going back to high school. He was never a "scrawny kid" or "thin" like Bonds and McGuire were in their first few seasons. If Judge increased his mass anymore from his starting point he'd never be able to turn on ball or even get out of bed.
Unless otherwise specified my posts represent only my opinion, not fact.
Red Barber knew a thing or two about calling a ball game, although all he said was "there it is". You can probably assume that means a HR, especially if that was a statement he used frequently. it could also mean he made contact.
I have always argued that Maris was essentially a better than average player, aside from a couple standout years, and not overall HOF material. However, you could also argue that average HOF players gained an advantage from specific feats or a brief stint of dominance, where the career numbers don't quite seem to say HOF career. Mazeroski, Jackie Robinson and even Koufax are a few that might be considered. Koufax was clearly one of the best arms in his prime, but his career was so brief, especially considering he didn't hit his stride until it was nearly halfway over! However, he met the 10 year minimum and those 6 great years propelled him over the top.
As well as modest. Roger caught so much flak for his accomplishments that I wonder how it ended up affecting his play as well as his legacy.
I just watched 61 the other day. Great movie. Maris should be in the Hall of fame. Not only for HR record setter, but MVP, world series champ, etc. He did more in a few years than Baines, Simmons, and all other recent entries in the hall of good combined.
This last is simply not true. I'm going to back away from your examples of Kell and Mazeroski and replace them with Baines and Hunter. To paraphrase: It does no good telling people that Henderson and Seaver were no good. No one will believe you. But if you make a group of "elite" players and include Baines and Hunter along with Hederson and Seaver then the definition of greatness begins to lose meaning.
This is manifestly not true. The HoF has never had standards as low as it did starting shortly after Maris retired and continuing on and off for about a decade, and it never will again. Many players who were only slightly above average and for a short time were enshrined in those years. Sadly, and bizarrely, the players considered by the various Committees aren't even close to the best players from their eras who aren't enshrined.
It's like the 1974 MVP races where there was no reason to vote for either winner. If you're committed to voting for a Dodger and won't vote for Messersmith because pitchers have their own award, what is the argument for voting for Garvey over Wynn? Similarly, in the AL it's clear that the best performances were by pitchers (six of the top eight in WAR were pitchers), but Burroughs was still a very strange choice. Was it just his big lead in RBI to the extent of everything else? I mean it's hard to choose him over Rudi or Bando, much less the likes of Jackson or Grich. Were Carew's hits, BA, and OBP enough to offset the fact that the Twins finished eight games out? I don't know, but that's the sort of conversation we should have had. Not, who among Kaat, Parker, and Garvey should be in, but rather if we're considering players from that era why aren't we looking at Grich, Nettles, Bell, Randolph, Dwight Evans, or Reuschel?
If Joe Namath is in the Football HOF, then I believe Roger Maris should also be in the baseball HOF. Two players who were incredibly famous for a few short years. Put them both in. Yes I know Namath is already in.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
If "incredibly famous for a few short years" is a criterion, then Canseco, Mattingly, Strawberry, Gooden, and Hershiser should all be in.
Granted, it has been a few years since I have been to the HOF, but I would argue that, sans a plaque, Maris is as much in the HOF as some of those with plaques.
Clearly, Maris was a very good player as evidenced by his 1960 MVP.
The 1961 and 1962 seasons were unique due to the expansion, which represented the greatest immediate dilution relative to the existing talent pool in the majors and the growing total pool of talent (both expansion outside the US and core population growth). Maris stood out, but many had career years in these two years - Cash, Gentile, Davis among others.
Even the stars benefited from expansion, which was rational reaction to the growth of the talent pool. There was as similar spurt in 1969 and a lesser one in 1977. Hank Aaron was such a tremendous talent that his movement into his mid-twenties, the first expansion, the move to Atlanta and the 1969 expansion blended together to create a huge prime. This also helped to counter the negative impact from the shift in the National League from smaller stadiums to the larger multi-purpose stadiums. (As a huge Mike Schmidt fan, I often wonder what he would have done if his career was shifted 10-15 years in either direction to take advantage of expansion/stadium design. Everything is relative, he led the majors in HR eight times).
As far as Cardgeek is concerned, I suppose the earth is flat and the moon landings were staged in Hollywood.
Until the quality of recording improved and the introduction of the center field camera, practically all TV recordings of baseball give the appearance of a phantom ball - you can't see crap in these videos, it's all reactive like the trick play in "Little Big League".
The only evidence of Mazeroski's homer is seeing Yogi Berra looking up dejectedly and Mazeroski circling the bases. Likewise for Maris - Maris circling the bases and the guy emerging from the scramble holding up the ball are the only visible evidence of the homerun.