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PWCC Premier Auction
IanG
Posts: 16 ✭
After an exhaustive legal review, it has been determined that PWCC Premier auction are held with reserve. This allows you to maintain control of the auction up to a sales transaction is complete. This includes having the card withdrawn. If you have had a bad experience with PWCC Premier auctions, they me know. They sold a card of mine after I withdrew permissions.
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What does “held with reserve” actually mean?
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
I can't even read this let alone understand it.
Plus, what are all of these legal reviews by everyone?? What is it....a bunch of lawyers sit with a PSA 6 1967 Mantle with Brent and Betsy holding a mallet or something with robes on. I don't think I understand any of anything you've written.
I'm always down to join a class action started by someone with only 2 posts!!
Que?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Pasa?
Brent and Betsy refused to stop an auction and return a card I had submitted two days after a Premier auction started and two weeks before it ended. I reviewed their rules as well as had to hire a lawyer to try to get this card returned. The lawyer's review determined that this auction is defined in Oregon as with reserve and PWCC should have returned the card once I requested. A review of their own Premier polices and procedures does not state that a card can not be withdrawn. So far the case has cost me $20,000 when you add in the loss value of the card and my legal fees. I've been told my cost may be up to $50,000 to complete arbitration which PWCC has forced us into. I still have a 20+ cards in their vault insured at $150,000. I have 4 times that in my collections. In addition, and just an FYI for others to research, after reviewing 7 months sales history for this card, it was found to be more profitable to sell it in the weekly auction or from the vault than as advertised in the Premier auction marketing.
Trying to follow along here...
You made the decision to submit the card to that specific auction. Once you made that decision, PWCC did their job and put your card in the specified auction that you requested. And once they did what you asked them to do and the auction ran for 2 days, you changed your mind, and want something else going against the terms that you agreed to when you submitted the card for auction? What are we missing that PWCC did something illegal here?
You made all the decisions. How are you blaming someone else?
He’s saying that PWCC’s terms and conditions don’t fit within Oregon’s state laws regarding auctions.
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
Why do you still have $150k in cards with them if they have not satisfied you as a client so much so that you feel forced to sue them? I know lawyers blow smoke often, but I would hope one of them would have given you the simplest advice of getting your cards back before battling them in court...
I appreciate the information but it comes across as sellers remorse without all the details.
As with any auction there are numerous things that factor into the final sales price. For example I never auction a card in the off season. If they are not in season and generating hype I wait until they are. I also try to sell when they are playing well and they are in demand. For example if they are injured I wait until they are healthy. These are only two of about 10 things that factor into the final sales price. I understand this might not be related to your story but without more details we will never know.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
How this "Case" has cost him $20k (and he is not talking about the loss on the "low sale" of his card) is not comprehensible..... Dude is full of it or an idiot to pay an attorney that much for just a letter, and maybe a couple hours of research on Oregon law.
Please please I have to know what card we are talking about so I can laugh a little or a lot
Thanks for your advice. I just retired and decided to sell all my cards. I have been collecting my whole life and added magic and Pokémon to sports card collections when my kids were interested. I bought unused mint cards while they used proxies for playing. I had a the first five sets of Pokémon and the big nine for Magic plus many other betas etc. I had some graded by PSA in 2000
I visited a local shop and was told my collection was too big for them to handle and recommended PWCC. I contacted them and sent a few graded cards. I was going to sell in fixed but they said I had cards that qualified for premier. This was my first time selling a card I said I would try but was worried the card wouldn’t bring market price. I asked to have the card returned after two days. The bid started and was at a few thousand dollars after two days but I wanted the card back. They said wait and see. Those first bids were so people could bid in the extended period and that was when the card would really go up. They said wait two weeks. I still asked for the card back. Even if the card exceeded the target price I wanted it back. The card sold for 10000 below two weeks later after many bids. While they said it was their policy to go ahead with an auction, there is no written policy about this in the premier auction. For laws governing On line auctions, they can be held with or without reserve. In one case if you submit you are obligated to complete a sale. In the other, the seller is legally allowed to stop the sale. Those are the legal rules governing the premier auction. As is first timer I simply asked if this has happened to anyone else. By law and with PWCC having no written policy stating so, they should have returned the card. Just like in eBay when a card is no longer available and the auction ends.
I agree $20k seems insane to pay for legal advice on this. Hell, you can run a complex divorce for less than that. But....keep in mind that if he's right and he carries the case through to completion, he can also ask PWCC to pay 100% of his legal fees.
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
Thanks for the longer explanation. I have compassion for your loss. It always stings like hell the first time an auction doesn't go as planned.
What made you change your mind after two days? If the online auction companies let everyone pull cards after the start of the auction, and after people have already starting bidding it could get crazy.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
I pulled the card because I worried about price but the card was also one of a consecutive numbered cards that I had submitted including the beta black lotus and others and I decided I was going to keep it. My kids always liked them and expressed an interest when they heard I was letting them go. I have series cards for the moxes and 1st edition other cards as well as baseball cards I submitted to psa. My dad and I started baseball collecting when I was a kid. We went to Crosley field and watched the reds play. I still have vada Pinson, Ted kluszewski’s and lots more. We played with them flipping and all. I got my dads when he passed. I stopped collecting years ago when they started to mass produce cards and everyone kept them as mint. Now my interest lie more with my grandkids. I think PWCC screwed me and maybe others. They could have pulled he card without having to tell anyone what had happened. Now they also want the fulfillment fee to get my cards out of the free for a lifetime vault.
It’s unfortunate that your local shop recommended PWCC. They should know better.
PWCC has been involved in numerous scandals and unfortunately the legal system doesn't have time to get involved in most online collecting scandals since they are so numerous. I suggest you get your cards back as soon as possible. The experienced sellers on this board can give you a lot more common sense ways to sell online than using PWCC...
https://kennerstartinglineup.blogspot.com/
I can’t blame the local shop. PWCC was less known then. I waited six months before I contacted them. When they started advertising free vault and set a deadline.
Regardless. I appreciate the helpful suggestions. Thanks. That is what I really needed to know.
Sir, I will quote you a different law. It's the law of REAL collectors who just love cards and buying/selling, etc.....here it is and probably everyone who is passionate and decent about the hobby will agree. "When an auction starts.....it goes to the end". Plain and simple. I also think all of these legal reviews will end you up in the poor house. You lost 10 grand and now you're putting something like 50 grand into this. Here is something else with our hobby that is LAW....when companies lie, trim cards, commit fraud, steal etc. it is not only allowed; but encouraged. The authorities don't care. I think they laugh at it.
I'm not a PWCC fan but once you committed to listing your card with them in an auction and said auction started, unless there's an error in the listing on their part, you should be expected to fulfill your agreement with them and see the auction to its conclusion. If you're ambivalent about selling your cards to the extent of wanting to pull a card once it's already listed for auction, you really should not be consigning them.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
i agree with Grote. I cannot stand PWCC. at all. but a man has to honor his commitments. if you sent items in to be auctioned, honor your commitment.
I mean, without our good word, what are we?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
So you felt nostalgic about what you willingly listed and are now paying 20K+ to litigate your way out of your commitment? How can you square that up with yourself?
Why not just bid high and buy your own cards back yourself? Pretty sure PWCC would be cool with that.
He doesn't have the brains to do that since his brain led hiim to the situation he is in now!!
Heritage Auctions would be cool with that.
buying O-Pee-Chee (OPC) baseball
I'm no expert on Oregon law but the OP seems to be saying that state law required PWCC to pull his card from the auction upon request. Assuming that is accurate, then he did not actually commit or agree to keep the card in the auction until the end. Rather, he submitted a card to an auction governed by laws that allow him to remove it from the auction upon request. I understand that arrangement is contrary to most collectors' expectations and many collectors would not approve of it but the expectations and feelings of collectors do not establish whether the OP committed to keeping the card in the auction until the end. Also, by setting up its business in Oregon, PWCC committed to follow Oregon law and allow parties to remove items from its auctions upon request (again, assuming the OP's statement of the law is correct) and it is PWCC that failed to honor its commitment when it refused to do so. If that is the law in Oregon, I would prefer that it be changed but I don't think it is somehow dishonorable for the OP to ask PWCC to abide by the law.
I would be curious to find out how the this all turns out if the OP is willing to share that but I understand if he doesn't.
The OP's whole argument is that the listing was with reserve.... Where does it say on PWCC that there is a reserve. The starting bid is NOT a reserve. If there is no reserve, then there is no law that forces PWCC to pull it after a bid has been received..... I guess what constitutes explicit terms that there is no reserve??
ORS 72.3280
Sale by auction
(1)
In a sale by auction if goods are put up in lots each lot is the subject of a separate sale.
(2)
A sale by auction is complete when the auctioneer so announces by the fall of the hammer or in other customary manner. Where a bid is made while the hammer is falling in acceptance of a prior bid the auctioneer may in the auctioneer’s discretion reopen the bidding or declare the goods sold under the bid on which the hammer was falling.
(3)
Such a sale is with reserve unless the goods are in explicit terms put up without reserve. In an auction with reserve the auctioneer may withdraw the goods at any time until the auctioneer announces completion of the sale. In an auction without reserve, after the auctioneer calls for bids on an article or lot, that article or lot cannot be withdrawn unless no bid is made within a reasonable time. In either case a bidder may retract a bid until the auctioneer’s announcement of completion of the sale, but a bidder’s retraction does not revive any previous bid.
(4)
If the auctioneer knowingly receives a bid on the seller’s behalf or the seller makes or procures such a bid, and notice has not been given that liberty for such bidding is reserved, the buyer may at the buyer’s option avoid the sale or take the goods at the price of the last good faith bid prior to the completion of the sale. This subsection shall not apply to any bid at a forced sale. [1961 c.726 §72.3280 (Sale by auction); 1983 c.404 §4; 1985 c.822 §2]
TITLE, CREDITORS AND GOOD FAITH PURCHASERS
I need to do an extensive legal review about this with Brent and Betsy. As a matter of fact, I'm doing a legal review of every purchase I ever made on EBAY too. I'm getting to the bottom of auction LAW. I'll get back to the group when I find important info for the group. I may consult Probstein on the matter too. LOL.