Interesting Genuine Grade for 1882 Pennsylvania Bi-Centennial So-Called Dollar

Zoins

I'm a fan of the 1882 Pennsylvania Bi-Centennial and found the grade on this HK-140 interesting.

This one didn't grade. Can anyone see the reason and why it might be interesting for So-Called Dollars?

LanceNewmanOCC

not my area but i'll say either composition or it is a medal, not a SCD?

Zoins

@LanceNewmanOCC said:
not my area but i'll say either composition or it is a medal, not a SCD?

Good guess, but it's a cataloged piece and composition. PCGS correctly attributed it as HK-140, "Penn's House and City Hall Dollar" in white metal.

LanceNewmanOCC

@Zoins said:

@LanceNewmanOCC said:
not my area but i'll say either composition or it is a medal, not a SCD?

Good guess, but it's a cataloged piece and composition. PCGS correctly attributed it as HK-140, "Penn's House and City Hall Dollar" in white metal.

ok. you leave me no choice but to state the obvious? the piece was privately drilled. one can tell by the way the metal curls around the hole.

i'll say this as my final guess as to why it is interesting AND simultaneously why it didn't grade.

FlyingAl

I think it's because of the hole.

Does this issue come commonly holed? I have very little experience with SCDs.

Zoins

You're both spot on @LanceNewmanOCC and @FlyingAl!

It's the hole. It's interesting to see PCGS take this approach on holed pieces, not that I mind. While many So-Called Dollars come holed and it's normally ok for grade like the NGC one I posted below, I have asked Jeff if he would consider separate catalog numbers for holed and unholed to have separate populations but he declined. If PCGS problem grades all holed pieces, it could be interesting, but I haven't see it for other pieces.

An ATS piece for comparison.

FlyingAl

You could petition PCGS to adopt a Trade dollar like standard where they denote the problem (hole akin to chop marks) on the label and give it a straight grade. Not sure if this attempt would be successful however, but it could be worth a shot.

Zoins

Here's two graded specimens of Musante GW-927 with the same grade, one holed and the other unholed.

And an unholed specimen with the same grade.

Zoins

@FlyingAl said:
You could petition PCGS to adopt a Trade dollar like standard where they denote the problem (hole akin to chop marks) on the label and give it a straight grade. Not sure if this attempt would be successful however, but it could be worth a shot.

Something to think about

vplite99

It MIGHT have something to do with the hole.

LanceNewmanOCC

@Zoins said:
You're both spot on @LanceNewmanOCC and @FlyingAl!

interesting comps to be sure and this isn't the only area in which we see inconsistencies for graded vs non between the various TPGs for various issues.

the inconsistency can come for a variety of reasons, although i think the first one is simply, changing standards for one reason or another from one time period at the TPGs, book release/update, politics, etc.

as i look at the holders above, it SEEMS as though they are close enough in generation to result in more consistency in whether holed pieces grade or not BUT considering there are thousands/tens of thousands more? of various SCD in holders, you'd figure they have worked out the kinks by now.

there are scenarios where a coin has multiple problems and the tpgs just kinda USUALLY choose the worst/most obvious and go with it but i don't think that the case with the OP coin where they chose the worst problem?, the hole. since they do/have grade probably many holed pieces, i figure in this instance they'd call out the actual problem with the coin and not the hole. fwiw

i hope we get some more commentary from experienced SCD/token submitters/collectors/dealers about the apparent inconsistency in just this small sample although, i'd venture a guess the archives probably have a couple threads/comments about this.

@Zoins - have you done much research into comps of various types that graded/not between pcgs/ngc to try and get a feel for the contrasting results?

Maywood

NGC has always straight-graded SC$'s as long as I recall going back to 2002-3, but PCGS refused to encapsulate any SC$'s with holes for suspension when they initially began grading this market segment. That's interesting since a good number of the catalogue listings were holed at the point of issue/purchase, in effect being "as made" which should have rendered the question of encapsulation at PCGS as moot. Apparently, that took place and now they are willing to place them in a straight-grade holder.

From the text of So-Called Dollars: No holed or looped material unless struck plain also. Our Nos. 1 to HK-3 are the sole exceptions. This should be the guideline used at PCGS since this is the text/catalogue they use as their reference. For myself, I avoid holed medals like the plague and only own a couple which were acquired before that self-policing rule went into effect. The nicest is an HK-24 that would probably grade MS66 --- I submitted it to PCGS perhaps 10-15 years ago and they returned it as "Damaged" for the hole. Finding that design type in any alloy without a hole is quite the feat.

Zoins

@Maywood said:
NGC has always straight-graded SC$'s as long as I recall going back to 2002-3, but PCGS refused to encapsulate any SC$'s with holes for suspension when they initially began grading this market segment. That's interesting since a good number of the catalogue listings were holed at the point of issue/purchase, in effect being "as made" which should have rendered the question of encapsulation at PCGS as moot. Apparently, that took place and now they are willing to place them in a straight-grade holder.

From the text of So-Called Dollars: No holed or looped material unless struck plain also. Our Nos. 1 to HK-3 are the sole exceptions. This should be the guideline used at PCGS since this is the text/catalogue they use as their reference. For myself, I avoid holed medals like the plague and only own a couple which were acquired before that self-policing rule went into effect. The nicest is an HK-24 that would probably grade MS66 --- I submitted it to PCGS perhaps 10-15 years ago and they returned it as "Damaged" for the hole. Finding that design type in any alloy without a hole is quite the feat.

Does HK-24 come unholed?

HK-140 is fairly popular unholed. There are several specimens available including the Virgil Brand specimen which I would love to own!

It's great to have pieces provenanced to Virgil Brand, T. Harrison Garret, and others.

Goldminers

Here are two US Philadelphia Mint National Commemorative Medals (mintmark under the reverse baseballs). One brass 1,500 minted, the other gilt brass and looped, 500 officially as made, both MS66.


And this 1959 Nevada Centennial silver and nickel silver alloy holed as made. MS66 and MS64.

NumisOxide

Neat piece! Like the reverse design.

Goldminers

It seems like if the hole is something done after the coin was sold by individuals, it would be considered post mint damage, but if some were documented as being made that way, it should straight grade.

It appears PCGS has never graded one of these and so maybe were reluctant to straight grade it without another example? I would send them the NGC photo and try again.

Maywood

@Zoins said: Does HK-24 come unholed?

Yes it does, I have a raw example and have seen several others. I have no way of knowing for certain, but it seems plausible that at these exhibits it was common to have a medal drilled for suspension.

Goldminers

@coinJP said:
Neat piece! Like the reverse design.

Thanks. Those Clemente's are a special engraving art style, and the medals are convex on both sides to represent a baseball. I posted them to point out a couple more recent examples where PCGS does usually straight grade holed or looped medals, often along with the other similar versions without holes.

I did have to resend PCGS better documentation for the looped medal, because it also was not going to be straight graded at first either. Sometimes things just need to have a bit more documentation to resolve these issues.

Zoins

@Goldminers said:
And this 1959 Nevada Centennial silver and nickel silver alloy holed as made. MS66 and MS64.

Very nice @Goldminers! Love these 1959 Nevada Silver Centennial So-Called Dollars!

I just have a silver specimen I picked up from Al / keets due to its nice color. Still looking for a nickel specimen. Are all nickel specimens holed?

Goldminers

@Zoins said:

@Goldminers said

Very nice @Goldminers! Love these 1959 Nevada Silver Centennial So-Called Dollars!

I just have a silver specimen I picked up from Al / keets due to its nice color. Still looking for a nickel specimen. Are all nickel specimens holed?

I have never seen a 1959 nickel version (size 22 or 22/16th of an inch in diameter, and R1) that is not holed, but I think there may be some. The nickel versions were probably not actual US mint items like the special only 1,000 minted silver ones struck in Philadelphia from the famous old historic Nevada Panamint ball of silver were. The silvers are size 21 and R-5.

I will add that your medal has very nice eye appeal to me and the 63 grade is questionable, but I do see the strike is a little weak on few details with a closer look. I would still re-submit under the reconsideration special if you have a few other medals worthy of a second look. (5 for the price of 4).

Goldminers

I forgot to add that I believe the nickel versions are all weak strikes (mine sure is a weak strike and the engine smoke is the tell).

I believe the old dies from the silver medals were sent to sone 3rd party, maybe in Nevada, and they used them to strike on the larger, cheaper, nickel planchets to allow for the hole to fit. Note the 0.5mm larger nickel alloy rim on each side of the design so the hole fits perfectly.

Zoins

@Goldminers said:
I forgot to add that I believe the nickel versions are all weak strikes (mine sure is a weak strike and the engine smoke is the tell).

I believe the old dies from the silver medals were sent to sone 3rd party, maybe in Nevada, and they used them to strike on the larger, cheaper, nickel planchets to allow for the hole to fit. Note the 0.5mm larger nickel alloy rim on each side of the design so the hole fits perfectly.

The interesting thing is that the text on the silver pieces also make allowance for the hole so it seems being holed was intentioned all along.

Goldminers

@Zoins said:

The interesting thing is that the text on the silver pieces also make allowance for the hole so it seems being holed was intentioned all along.

Yes, I agree with your pointing out the space for the hole in F. Gasparro's original design.

So, did the Philadelphia Mint do the holes on this in 1959, and acquire the nickel alloy planchets to strike them, or was this a third party?

I do not know of any more supporting documentation for who made the nickel versions or the actual nickel mintage.

Some_of_it

We need a National Commemorative Medals thread. So many mysteries to unpack.