The hobby isn't dying just the old timers are - consider it as God is a coin collector also and he needs the most experienced collectors on his grading staff!
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
Paradigm shift in the hobby. at 74. A lot of the dealers I have dealt with the last 30 years are out of the business
or have departed this life. B&M's are disappearing. My area from seven to 1 in same time frame.
Online is the new coin shop. when I see photos of bourse floors. they are still dominated by greyhairs I guess 50 +
Card dealers on the other hand are under 40. younger ones standing in the PSA grading line. Thats where the hobby growth will be. PSA is on the rise.
The last national stamp show convention I went to some dealers did not want to buy only sell as they were exiting the business. Shows use to be Coins and stamps ,now coins and sports cards.
because of inflation and good metal prices coin prices on the rise squeezing my budget to its limit. so I buy less and less nice coins. But, Like in the Jimmy Carter administration in the early 80's if we hit a hard recession coin prices will drop like a rock.
I remember coins shows then of totally depressed dealers. literally begging me to buy something, as buyers disappeared.. Prices plumited. I have very vivid memories of this. I remember thinking
maybe I should refrain from buying too. !5% inflation, friends buying 16% government bonds not coins. 11% to 15% mortgages. Very difficult times.
honestly I think the financial barrier to entry is getting worse. its probably exaggerated by the focus on competitive sets, and such. plus the knowledge development is pretty intense coming in with no knowledge base.
while knowledge is readily available, its the extra 10-15% of work that makes the difference in how one excels as a collector.
I also believe with novice individuals in entering the market, its easy for someone to spend a small fortune on coins only to realize they got hosed due to the knowledge deficit.
I think the hobby can be predatory and that chases many away before they can get to the more enjoyable aspect of the hobby.
also as a younger collector, I don't know a single person that collects coins. I think that speaks volumes.
I think we are seeing a surge in institutional investors churning sets, and building a brand only to sell and reinvest into another series... and the cycle continues.
WTB... errors, New Orleans gold, and circulated 20th key date coins!
The days of gaining knowledge and becoming your own expert in this hobby already died nearly 15 years ago when many instead decided to take an easier shortcut feeling they are safeguarding themselves by only buying stickered stuff.
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
@Broadstruck said:
The days of gaining knowledge and becoming your own expert in this hobby already died nearly 15 years ago when many instead decided to take an easier shortcut feeling they are safeguarding themselves by only buying stickered stuff.
You still have to buy the coin and not the holder. Although the sticker helps in some series, especially Saints. I wouldn't buy an unstickered Saint, but I'd buy an unstickered Walker.
I see a pretty significant increase in prices and decrease in availability in world coins.
I attribute it to an expanding international economy.
We ain't necessarily the BIG DOG like we were.
The design varieties in world coins easily eclipses the US coins. With the exception of the earlier 19th century types, I find the later issues pretty boring.
?/???
@rec78 said:
No, coin collecting will never die. Over the last 22 years since the state quarter series began the hobby has been getting stronger and stronger. If the mint ever stops minting coins or even one denomination, it will have a positive impact. A depression however could change everything.
Please help me understand how it would be a positive impact if the mint stops minting dollar or half dollar coins for example? Would those collectors then begin collecting other denominations still being minted?
The lower amount available the more desirable. Would you rather have old world silver or new world clad? Same with anything. When they stopped making wheat cents, they became more desirable. I consider this concept to be a positive impact.
People have been collecting coins since the first coins were struck around 650BC. I don't think people will stop collecting coins any time soon.
Coins have been a medium of exchange since 650 BC (or whenever). We are living in a time when using coins, as a medium of exchange, has been diminished, and the trend is continuing. The use of physical money, more generally, is declining. Other than for tips, I cannot remember the last time I spent physical money for anything. My kids want nothing to do with cash. If they get it, they always give it to me and have me put the money on their debit card.
How long can coin collecting survive in a world where coins are no longer a part of daily life for most people? I do not know the answer. Certainly gold coin collecting thrives in a world in which gold coins are not used for everyday transactions. I think it is complicated, but I am fairly confident that the hobby will outlive all of the people who are posting on this forum...so at least the next 20 years
@MFeld said:
>
I wouldn’t necessarily equate the current higher prices with the long term health of the hobby.
Why would you** not** equate higher prices with the health of the hobby? The prices are higher as there is more demand. And while there are speculators in the market, this isn't like the Hunts brothers run up on silver or investment firms cornering the market on "investment grade" coins. The coins are generally going up across the board and across grades for the most part. So that means that collectors are actively collecting.
Because as you likely know, coins are just one of many categories that have been enjoying higher prices. In general, over the past few years, there has been a smaller available supply and greater demand. But the greater demand isn’t necessarily mostly from collectors, or at least ones are likely to remain so.
People have been looking for places to park their money and coins just happen to be one of those places. The fact that prices have been increasing in most areas and at most grade levels doesn’t indicate to me that collectors are actively collecting, any more than that speculators/investors are actively buying. I don’t think the current strength of the market necessarily speaks to the long term health of the hobby.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I think it is true asset prices have increased, money is/was cheap.
So lets see how it plays out in terms of auction prices realized and if we start to see falling prices then we can make a determination that demand/interest is fading.
But I do not think the hobby is anywhere close to dying stages, and there are segments of the market where I personally see strength in buying and selling that are as healthy as ever. This coupled with new entrants formed by pandemic perusing should be a positive to the long term health.
Another thing to consider is a lot of kids lose interest in the hobby between 13-30 and get back into it. I know a bunch of people in that boat, myself included.
@Pnies20 said:
Another thing to consider is a lot of kids lose interest in the hobby between 13-30 and get back into it. I know a bunch of people in that boat, myself included.
The problem is one of selection bias as old folks (no offense) are often the most visible within the hobby. Go to a coin show, there’s a bunch of old folks. Go to a coin store, it’s run by an old guy.
I started selling coins on eBay 25 (or so) years ago. My eBay sales allowed me to pay my mortgage off 15 years early and retire with an income stream aside from pension/401k/ss that's entirely satisfactory to me. Could be higher, if I was interested in putting more time and effort into it. If that's "dying for dealers", I'm in favor of it.
Only shrinking somewhat; numismatics just touches too many other hobbies, business areas, and aspects of life. Other things like baseball cards came and largely went due to things that don't affect this hobby much.
If the Hobby is dying, then the only explanation for rising prices and robust demand is that the Fed is buying it all up.
The best part about numismatics is that a collector doesn't even need to know the history, they just need to love that coins are historical and have great aesthetics that make them worth collecting.
@Pnies20 said:
Another thing to consider is a lot of kids lose interest in the hobby between 13-30 and get back into it. I know a bunch of people in that boat, myself included.
@2ltdjorn said:
I also believe with novice individuals in entering the market, its easy for someone to spend a small fortune on coins only to realize they got hosed due to the knowledge deficit.
Not that it's any consolation, but I think it's harder to get hosed on coins than crypto coins.
@2ltdjorn said:
as a younger collector, I don't know a single person that collects coins. I think that speaks volumes.
Hanging out on Instagram might help.
So might getting into the next Witter Coin University class:
@Pnies20 said:
Another thing to consider is a lot of kids lose interest in the hobby between 13-30 and get back into it. I know a bunch of people in that boat, myself included.
I just ran into Peter Yeung at Long Beach. He's older now and was a co-owner of Panda America, buying it from Martin Weiss. He started dealing in coins at 13.
I'm going to disagree. The knowledge won't be lost. It will be out there to find (for anyone interested). Sure I myself have nephews with no interest that would rather play video games but there are a number of local coin shows that I attend monthly that draw in a number of people of all ages and sex. There are youth coin clubs here too that are thriving. Overall the hobby in my opinion for the most part has more of a mature following. Maybe due to being a bit more financially stable. Take someone who is in high school, about to get their driver's license, in college, entering the workforce and their priorities and interests are surely going to be different than someone in their 40's, 50's, 60's, and up. Also when/if the day comes and coins are completely replaced with digitally currency the coins of the past will be appreciated. If anything the prices/values may fluctuate but I think the interest with the hobby will remain.
This isn't an oral tradition type hobby - plenty of documentation available for future collectors.
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
"Other things like baseball cards came and largely went due to things that don't affect this hobby much."
Go to the Long Beach Coin show owned by" Collectors Universe." PSA / baseball cards are taking over more and more of the bourse floor. Long lines of Young folks waiting to submit their cards and sports collectibles. much longer lines than at PCGS
table. where the grey hairs are at. This is were the growth will be going forward for the new investors who now own Collectors Universe.
The Owner owns the New York Mets baseball team! I believe PSA will be its strongest division. not coins or stamps or Video games, though I hear its becoming popular too.
@krueger — While Nat Turner and Steve Cohen are sports cards guys, the diversification of Collectors Universe into trading cards shouldn’t have much if any impact on coin collecting. Coin collecting is much more mature in terms of the infrastructure supporting the hobby and lots of younger collectors are priced out of coins. Nat and Steve’s investments in growth are better spent on trading cards, which has a nearly limitless supply of cards that can be submitted for grading. Compare this to coins where the lion share of supply has already been submitted for grading and PCGS can only make so much on dealers cracking holders i.e., CU’s growth potential is capped. All that said, eventually these collectors will transition from trading cards to coin collecting — or at least the ones who make serious money later in life — after all it’s the king of hobbies and one of the oldest hobbies around.
Yes you are right there is an unlimited supply of cards.
I have a cousin who has moving boxes and more moving boxes of baseball cards.
ungraded -- as he Bought out a large card dealers stock in the 70'S
quite overwhelming. and not widget cards either.
I am a Baseball history nut so I know who's who. and have some Knowledge of BB cards.
once had a great collection 1953 to 1968. Also had a boyhood friend ? father& son collectors .
Had given me some cards that are rare now and
who 's father had a Honus Wagner.
amazing.
I have collected United States (and later Canadian) coins since the 1970s, some 45 years. There have been breaks in that time. The wealth of information available today is stronger than that of when I was younger, and the availability of information on the internet has greatly contributed to this. There are also many great books out there authored by some of the most knowledgeable in numismatics. The hobby is not dying, yet it is changing, and change is not always easy on us.
We are living in a modern cashless society more and more.
In future only minority wealthy elitists can afford to collect physical coins of past which many have been recycled and reused as new metal.
To me modern: 2021,2023 Morgan dollars are nothing but medals or bullion.
Because nobody uses them to trade ( Buy everyday items from stores and such.).
You don't even know the origin location of silver in them it could be recycled from around the world (Russia, China, India...) at least you can pinpoint the U.S silver origin of old Morgans from 1878-1904 pretty accurately.
If coins do not circulate from hand to hand what is the point then ?
The modern coins do not have a purpose like they used to have.
I do not collect medals or bullion.
As a buyer we make our own minds just do not believe all what big cat sellers here say.
Sellers have their own interests when setting hypes around coins to sell them more easily.
I don’t think the hobby is dying, it’s evolving as everything in life does.
The amount of information available at our fingertips is staggering and due to that I believe the average coin collector is smarter now than at any other point in the history of the hobby.
@Broadstruck said:
The days of gaining knowledge and becoming your own expert in this hobby already died nearly 15 years ago when many instead decided to take an easier shortcut feeling they are safeguarding themselves by only buying stickered stuff.
The hobby isn't dying, it's just evolving. Multiple platforms to go view, buy and sell coins vs. the old days where you would bring some coins to Oscar the Grouch in a musty B&M for a sale, hoping he wouldn't spit on them (and you).
Comments
The hobby isn't dying just the old timers are - consider it as God is a coin collector also and he needs the most experienced collectors on his grading staff!
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
Paradigm shift in the hobby. at 74. A lot of the dealers I have dealt with the last 30 years are out of the business
or have departed this life. B&M's are disappearing. My area from seven to 1 in same time frame.
Online is the new coin shop. when I see photos of bourse floors. they are still dominated by greyhairs I guess 50 +
Card dealers on the other hand are under 40. younger ones standing in the PSA grading line. Thats where the hobby growth will be. PSA is on the rise.
The last national stamp show convention I went to some dealers did not want to buy only sell as they were exiting the business. Shows use to be Coins and stamps ,now coins and sports cards.
because of inflation and good metal prices coin prices on the rise squeezing my budget to its limit. so I buy less and less nice coins. But, Like in the Jimmy Carter administration in the early 80's if we hit a hard recession coin prices will drop like a rock.
I remember coins shows then of totally depressed dealers. literally begging me to buy something, as buyers disappeared.. Prices plumited. I have very vivid memories of this. I remember thinking
maybe I should refrain from buying too. !5% inflation, friends buying 16% government bonds not coins. 11% to 15% mortgages. Very difficult times.
No it’s not dying at all. Looks great from my perspective.
honestly I think the financial barrier to entry is getting worse. its probably exaggerated by the focus on competitive sets, and such. plus the knowledge development is pretty intense coming in with no knowledge base.
while knowledge is readily available, its the extra 10-15% of work that makes the difference in how one excels as a collector.
I also believe with novice individuals in entering the market, its easy for someone to spend a small fortune on coins only to realize they got hosed due to the knowledge deficit.
I think the hobby can be predatory and that chases many away before they can get to the more enjoyable aspect of the hobby.
also as a younger collector, I don't know a single person that collects coins. I think that speaks volumes.
I think we are seeing a surge in institutional investors churning sets, and building a brand only to sell and reinvest into another series... and the cycle continues.
The days of gaining knowledge and becoming your own expert in this hobby already died nearly 15 years ago when many instead decided to take an easier shortcut feeling they are safeguarding themselves by only buying stickered stuff.
One day I'm going to step into the metaverse and buy a 1804 silver dollar Proof 68.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
You still have to buy the coin and not the holder. Although the sticker helps in some series, especially Saints. I wouldn't buy an unstickered Saint, but I'd buy an unstickered Walker.
I see a pretty significant increase in prices and decrease in availability in world coins.
I attribute it to an expanding international economy.
We ain't necessarily the BIG DOG like we were.
The design varieties in world coins easily eclipses the US coins. With the exception of the earlier 19th century types, I find the later issues pretty boring.
?/???
The lower amount available the more desirable. Would you rather have old world silver or new world clad? Same with anything. When they stopped making wheat cents, they became more desirable. I consider this concept to be a positive impact.
@PerryHall said:
Coins have been a medium of exchange since 650 BC (or whenever). We are living in a time when using coins, as a medium of exchange, has been diminished, and the trend is continuing. The use of physical money, more generally, is declining. Other than for tips, I cannot remember the last time I spent physical money for anything. My kids want nothing to do with cash. If they get it, they always give it to me and have me put the money on their debit card.
How long can coin collecting survive in a world where coins are no longer a part of daily life for most people? I do not know the answer. Certainly gold coin collecting thrives in a world in which gold coins are not used for everyday transactions. I think it is complicated, but I am fairly confident that the hobby will outlive all of the people who are posting on this forum...so at least the next 20 years
PM me I’m selling some land at 100k per acre. A steal!
BHNC #248 … 130 and counting.
Because as you likely know, coins are just one of many categories that have been enjoying higher prices. In general, over the past few years, there has been a smaller available supply and greater demand. But the greater demand isn’t necessarily mostly from collectors, or at least ones are likely to remain so.
People have been looking for places to park their money and coins just happen to be one of those places. The fact that prices have been increasing in most areas and at most grade levels doesn’t indicate to me that collectors are actively collecting, any more than that speculators/investors are actively buying. I don’t think the current strength of the market necessarily speaks to the long term health of the hobby.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I think it is true asset prices have increased, money is/was cheap.
So lets see how it plays out in terms of auction prices realized and if we start to see falling prices then we can make a determination that demand/interest is fading.
But I do not think the hobby is anywhere close to dying stages, and there are segments of the market where I personally see strength in buying and selling that are as healthy as ever. This coupled with new entrants formed by pandemic perusing should be a positive to the long term health.
Another thing to consider is a lot of kids lose interest in the hobby between 13-30 and get back into it. I know a bunch of people in that boat, myself included.
BHNC #248 … 130 and counting.
I wouldn't buy an unstickered Saint, but I'd buy an unstickered Walker.
The percentage of Walkers that are stickered is pretty low. I've had some really nice Walkers come back without a sticker. There is a reason for that.
This was my experience as well.
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
The problem is one of selection bias as old folks (no offense) are often the most visible within the hobby. Go to a coin show, there’s a bunch of old folks. Go to a coin store, it’s run by an old guy.
I started selling coins on eBay 25 (or so) years ago. My eBay sales allowed me to pay my mortgage off 15 years early and retire with an income stream aside from pension/401k/ss that's entirely satisfactory to me. Could be higher, if I was interested in putting more time and effort into it. If that's "dying for dealers", I'm in favor of it.
Only shrinking somewhat; numismatics just touches too many other hobbies, business areas, and aspects of life. Other things like baseball cards came and largely went due to things that don't affect this hobby much.
If the Hobby is dying, then the only explanation for rising prices and robust demand is that the Fed is buying it all up.
The best part about numismatics is that a collector doesn't even need to know the history, they just need to love that coins are historical and have great aesthetics that make them worth collecting.
IMO... no.
Me three!!!
Not that it's any consolation, but I think it's harder to get hosed on coins than crypto coins.
Hanging out on Instagram might help.
So might getting into the next Witter Coin University class:
I just ran into Peter Yeung at Long Beach. He's older now and was a co-owner of Panda America, buying it from Martin Weiss. He started dealing in coins at 13.
Someone will sell you a nice NFT
I'm going to disagree. The knowledge won't be lost. It will be out there to find (for anyone interested). Sure I myself have nephews with no interest that would rather play video games but there are a number of local coin shows that I attend monthly that draw in a number of people of all ages and sex. There are youth coin clubs here too that are thriving. Overall the hobby in my opinion for the most part has more of a mature following. Maybe due to being a bit more financially stable. Take someone who is in high school, about to get their driver's license, in college, entering the workforce and their priorities and interests are surely going to be different than someone in their 40's, 50's, 60's, and up. Also when/if the day comes and coins are completely replaced with digitally currency the coins of the past will be appreciated. If anything the prices/values may fluctuate but I think the interest with the hobby will remain.
Pocket Change Inspector
This isn't an oral tradition type hobby - plenty of documentation available for future collectors.
"Other things like baseball cards came and largely went due to things that don't affect this hobby much."
Go to the Long Beach Coin show owned by" Collectors Universe." PSA / baseball cards are taking over more and more of the bourse floor. Long lines of Young folks waiting to submit their cards and sports collectibles. much longer lines than at PCGS
table. where the grey hairs are at. This is were the growth will be going forward for the new investors who now own Collectors Universe.
The Owner owns the New York Mets baseball team! I believe PSA will be its strongest division. not coins or stamps or Video games, though I hear its becoming popular too.
@krueger — While Nat Turner and Steve Cohen are sports cards guys, the diversification of Collectors Universe into trading cards shouldn’t have much if any impact on coin collecting. Coin collecting is much more mature in terms of the infrastructure supporting the hobby and lots of younger collectors are priced out of coins. Nat and Steve’s investments in growth are better spent on trading cards, which has a nearly limitless supply of cards that can be submitted for grading. Compare this to coins where the lion share of supply has already been submitted for grading and PCGS can only make so much on dealers cracking holders i.e., CU’s growth potential is capped. All that said, eventually these collectors will transition from trading cards to coin collecting — or at least the ones who make serious money later in life — after all it’s the king of hobbies and one of the oldest hobbies around.
Yes you are right there is an unlimited supply of cards.
I have a cousin who has moving boxes and more moving boxes of baseball cards.
ungraded -- as he Bought out a large card dealers stock in the 70'S
quite overwhelming. and not widget cards either.
I am a Baseball history nut so I know who's who. and have some Knowledge of BB cards.
once had a great collection 1953 to 1968. Also had a boyhood friend ? father& son collectors .
Had given me some cards that are rare now and
who 's father had a Honus Wagner.
amazing.
I have collected United States (and later Canadian) coins since the 1970s, some 45 years. There have been breaks in that time. The wealth of information available today is stronger than that of when I was younger, and the availability of information on the internet has greatly contributed to this. There are also many great books out there authored by some of the most knowledgeable in numismatics. The hobby is not dying, yet it is changing, and change is not always easy on us.
We are living in a modern cashless society more and more.
In future only minority wealthy elitists can afford to collect physical coins of past which many have been recycled and reused as new metal.
To me modern: 2021,2023 Morgan dollars are nothing but medals or bullion.
Because nobody uses them to trade ( Buy everyday items from stores and such.).
You don't even know the origin location of silver in them it could be recycled from around the world (Russia, China, India...) at least you can pinpoint the U.S silver origin of old Morgans from 1878-1904 pretty accurately.
If coins do not circulate from hand to hand what is the point then ?
The modern coins do not have a purpose like they used to have.
I do not collect medals or bullion.
As a buyer we make our own minds just do not believe all what big cat sellers here say.
Sellers have their own interests when setting hypes around coins to sell them more easily.
It will be around but prices could decrease.
I don’t think the hobby is dying, it’s evolving as everything in life does.
The amount of information available at our fingertips is staggering and due to that I believe the average coin collector is smarter now than at any other point in the history of the hobby.
You say that like it's a bad thing
The hobby isn't dying, it's just evolving. Multiple platforms to go view, buy and sell coins vs. the old days where you would bring some coins to Oscar the Grouch in a musty B&M for a sale, hoping he wouldn't spit on them (and you).
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
The hobby isn't dying, but it appears to be growing more slowly than other hobbies. So it is falling down the rankings a bit.
For what it's worth, people have been worried the hobby is dying for at least 40 years. Probably longer.
IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
"Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me