Ottoman guys? Help with ID? Updated for those interested.

Weiss

Do I have this right? 1223/9 Constantinople, So AH 1231 = 1816 = Mahmud II ?

At 4.7 grams, it's a 2 rumi? NGC shows an almost exact match with KM#617, but so many others I see online have the floral devices around the perimeter rather than the script calligraphy. And Heritage indicates "holed as usual". Were they holed to wear in jewelry? They seem pretty large for that. Any help appreciated. I'm on the fence but I think it's pretty cool.

Weiss

Updated, after poking around a little:

KM#614 is the 2 rumi altin of Mahmud II with the floral devices around the perimeter. My piece is the KM#617 2 rumi altin of Mahmud II with the script. Apparently same denomination, weight, and of the same era. Just a different style. Hope someone will correct me or expound if there's more to add.

NGC and the other online references I found indicate the purity simply as "gold". She tests squarely at 90% pure on the Sigma. Still unsure why so many are holed, and why many references refer to that as typical. Other than they are a big, relatively thin coin so you get a little more bang for your buck in terms of visibility. She's actually 4.9 grams and approximately 29.3 mm.

Anyway, couldn't pass her up at melt. Here she is with a 1913 20 qirsh--roughly 100 years her junior:

Weiss

And since nobody else seems to care , the (possible) answer to why ottoman coins are often found holed and why it seems to matter little to their collectors:

"It was a long standing tradition for the bride to wear jewelry and other ornamentation made up of actual circulating coinage. This is where many Ottoman coins gained their holes, from being pierced by jewelers and relatives of brides, using the money given by family and friends to the couple to make the ornaments that the bride would wear on her wedding day."

https://ottomanandturkishcoins.wordpress.com/2014/04/24/coins-and-culture-why-do-so-many-ottoman-coins-have-holes-in-them/

Sapyx

@Weiss said:
And since nobody else seems to care , the (possible) answer to why ottoman coins are often found holed and why it seems to matter little to their collectors:

"It was a long standing tradition for the bride to wear jewelry and other ornamentation made up of actual circulating coinage. This is where many Ottoman coins gained their holes, from being pierced by jewelers and relatives of brides, using the money given by family and friends to the couple to make the ornaments that the bride would wear on her wedding day."

Yes, this is the general reason why Ottoman gold coins, especially the very thin ones, are often found holed. Finding one unholed is actually rather rare; if you look at the examples in the Krause/NGC database (which are presumably the best pictures that were readily available to the cataloguers), their example of KM 614 in holed, but they've managed to find an unholed KM 617.

It is also the reason why imitation Ottoman gold coins are very frequently encountered. For poor people, or for people who simply can't get their hands on quantities of actual 200-year-old gold coins, lookalike replicas are sufficient. These replica Ottoman jewellery coins are often given the disparaging moniker "belly dancer coins", though they would most likely have been actually used as wedding ornaments, rather than for frivolous entertainment. The replicas come in various qualities, from the reasonably accurate to the laughably cartoonish, but are almost always made of brass or gilt, rather than actual gold.

In Near Eastern culture, using coins for decoration extends beyond personal dress. Coins (and therefore replica imitation-coins) can be festooned on just about anything to make it look "traditional". For example, the sherbet-sellers who peddle their drinks to the tourists while walking around the Grand Bazaar in Istanbul will often have coins dangling from their drink dispensers.

As for the reason why two different coins with the same denomination were issued at the same time, the Ottoman Empire was going through a prolonged financial crisis in the 1800s. This necessitated numerous currency reforms. The two different gold altin designs reflect their intended use in different currency systems. That the mint was issuing two separate currency systems simultaneously, for a period of several years, is indicative of the rather chaotic nature of the Ottoman financial system.

It's even possible that wealthy aristocrats, bringing their gold in to the mint for coining into wedding ornaments, got to pick and choose which design they wanted for their coins. The government certainly has always seemed to be aware that this tradition exists and that there is therefore a demand for large, thin, easily-holepunched gold coins. Modern Turkey continues to make the large, thin, "monnaie de luxe" series of gold coins, which seem to have no practical purpose other than providing this service; they also make a much more "normal" format gold bullion coin, in the same denominations. But I don't think they're as popular with brides as the old coins, as it generally isn't too hard to obtain an unholed monnaie de luxe.

And finally, as an aside: if you were ever wondering what a toughra might look like, if you could actually read Arabic, the monnaie de lux coins perhaps give some indication, as they contain a "quasi-toughra" comprising the words "Republic of Turkey", written ornately in Turkish using the modern Western alphabet.

Weiss

Awesome, @Sapyx . I appreciate your comments!