First Submission
ActionJunkie
Posts: 14 ✭
Just checked out the grades from my first PSA submission. Had done one BGS before. Usually pretty spot on with grades. All my BGS guesses were within “.5” of what they were graded. I’m one of those card collectors who has been obsessed with card condition going all the way back to my preteens/early 90s (even was pretty careful in grade school). Still remember first hearing about sports cards being “professionally” graded in the mid 90s by PSA and thought it was so cool and wondered if Magic: The Gathering cards would ever be included - had transitioned to playing/collecting Magic by the mid/late 90s.
Anyways everything has been amazing and smooth with my PSA experience so props there. Almost waited to check grades in person but just couldn’t and snuck a peek. Every single card was as expected with a few gem10s that I knew were close but was fine with a 9… …except one card. A 1993 Magic card that I personally broke from a pack circa 2004 and had kept in sleeve/toploader. Yes I looked over it too before deciding to grade with bright light and even wiped the surface of any finger prints/etc very very carefully. Actually thought it might get a 10 and no possible way lower than an 8 (really don’t see how it was below a 9). It got a 6. Huh. At this point feeling like I’m going crazy… maybe I did miss something… but a 6. Seems like more likely answer is something else happened.
Any advice or thoughts? Yes I realize hopefully much more will be apparent when they are back in my hands. So yeah going to try to not OCD about it and have patience and go from there. But gosh, what the heck.
Apologize if this is the wrong forum for a post like this.
Comments
It's possible they damaged the card before grading
It's also possible you may have missed a dent or maybe some foil missing or some other hard to find surface flaw
Only thing you can do is wait to get it back and go over it with a fine tooth comb, if they did the damage it's going to be hard to get them to admit it. It's much easier when you get a 10 back with a mangled corner, then they can't argue the damage is not their fault.
Welcome! I agree with 82FBWM here. I’ve personally had over 80 submissions over the years and have generally been pretty good with my grade estimates. However, my subs over the past year and half have not been nearly as spot on. It seems PSA has considerably "tightened” their grading standards (or at least they are being much harder on older cards than I have experienced previously). It also seems they are tougher on “star” cards. Just my experience. Good luck in the future and post some scans when you get your cards back.
Thanks for the input!
It's weird because gaming cards are easy to grade into categories: Mint/Near-Mint, Light-Moderate-Heavy Play, and Damaged. This card was pack-pulled. Nothing close to played or any kind of handled condition. And it got a six.
Did two submissions - 10 cards at the $100 service and 20 cards at the $50 service. The 1993 Magic card was one of the lower value ones and only did it because of the nostalgia of pack-pulling it as the rare from the first Magic expansion, Arabian Nights (booster cost $80 in ~2004). The other 7 cards were trading cards with 5 of them being condition sensitive Metal Blasters/Foils. The Metal Blasters and foils which definitely were more susceptible to handling damage all got expected 7-8 grades. The other two trading cards got what I hoped in 10s (woot).
THINK I might have figured it out or realized something that might have at least affected it. Most gaming cards, especially vintage ones, vary wildly with corners. Both the rounding of the corner edge (some are nearly as sharp as a trading card) and a concave inward of the corner surface (sometimes concave outward though much more rare) occur. Some do walk on that line of being considered a damaged corner with it being so pronounced or if it's more dented than curved/bending-inward. The 1993 card did have a significant concave inward of the corners. But it wasn't anything not standard for the time or set. Looking at random 93-96 MTG cards next to me and I'm seeing it everywhere especially 1994 stuff. Speculating but wonder if that was a major factor. Even if so... a grade 6 seems crazy. If anyone else has extensive experience with Magic grading especially very early stuff would love to hear your input about the corner aspect.
Will have to see and will post pictures of the graded slabs. Had taken some pictures before mailing too.
It was in a box with zero compression of the toploader on a shelf. About 5 years ago put it and a few other cards in team bags and back into the box with plans to be graded at some point.
I'm sure everyone would love to see pics of your wins when they come in as well as your 6. Maybe we could detect something.
What MTG card was it?
A PSA 7 is a Near Mint grade. A 6 is just below Near Mint.
Arabian Nights packs, even in 2004, were nonexistent. Even in 2004, if you showed me an Arabian Nights pack, I would have told you it had nearly certainly already been searched. Even if you saw it come out of a box. Searching a pack like that, considering most of the time it was a 25 year old moron doing it, probably, high chance cards get damaged. The loose packs got passed around and mishandled a ton.
If it graded a 6 you probably missed something.
Possible, but not very likely that PSA "dinged" it during the process.
I really wish they would note the reason when they find a flaw.
100% agree,
PSA Creased one of my cards in my last sub. No recourse.
They openly admit that they don't trust themselves to handle cards. They don't guarantee they can get a card out of a slab in the same condition it went in to the slab. Which is interesting, cause if you can't get it out of the slab in the same condition, what's the point? If anyone should be able to crack a slab without damaging a card shouldn't it be PSA?
Ydween Efreet. Yes.
Got it from TrollandToad in a buylist order. Sold a bunch of dual lands and other cards (Mana Drains/etc.) in a college for cash and used some of it for store credit to buy both the Arbian Nights pack and a German sealed starter box of Revised (believe paid around $300-400 in credit for it). After opening the pack was like, yep, probably searched as I got a bottom 5% value rare - still was so fun opening!! All of the cards were in Mint, pack-pulled condition... maybe possibly a few of the tiny white marks on a couple of them would knock them to an 8. Looking through them a few years later, I remember thinking some of these could get "10s" including the Ydween. Then after the last few jumps of Ydween decided to get it graded mostly for nostalgia.
Going to wait and see but am curious if it's a corner thing. Might try to elaborate on that with examples if I can get my lights on the right angle and show MTG cards from the ages (and sets/etc.)
I personally wouldn't trust anybody with something like an Arabian Nights pack. I thought Troll and Toad was a good store around that time though. I sold a bunch of cards to Dale from Troll and Toad at various conventions in the 90s. There are no rares in Arabian Nights. 2 uncommons per pack. Arabian Nights finish is also more matte than any set printed later. Maybe it looked worn to the grader.
U3s and U1s (maybe U2s?) - number denoted how many per uncommon sheet. YDween is what most considered the hit of the pack as a U1. Don’t believe you could get two U1s in a pack but maybe? Interesting about the finish. It looked similar to most vintage sets of its time like Legends/Dark. Will look into that.
I believe it's 2 cards off the uncommon sheet. There is only an uncommon sheet and a common sheet. I don't see why you couldn't get 2 U1s.
Antiquities gets more glossy. But the paper does change again after The Dark.
Had an old Scrye price guide laying around (February 1999).
Looks like it was U2 and U3s. From what I remember from internet/magazine sources you could get two U3s or a U2 and U3 but outside of a random collation thing not two of the rarer uncommons or U2s. Fallen Empires and Dark were similar. Looks like Fallen Empires were U1 and U3s… do remember quite well only getting one U1s in those.
Well, we do know for certain that WotC collates things in a very predictable way. So, it wouldn't surprise me either way.
I watched people play Alpha sealed deck right when Magic came out. Then I went away to school. Antiquities wasn't sold out yet when I bought my first pack of Magic in 1994. But, I was only ever in 1 store 1 time that had Arabian Nights packs for sale. They were probably like 50 bucks a pack. This store had them for sale for like a month. Right around 1996. Santa Monica Sports Cards. A lot of the print run of the early sets, I believe, went in to peoples closets. The production numbers of Arabian Nights are known and quite low.
When you start silencing your customers in the community forum that you provide, where do you expect the to go? Community forums go a long way in providing free customer service, that you guys fail to provide otherwise. Now that dude is pissed and has no way to communicate with you guys. Because, you wont pick up the phone most of the time. And even when you do pick up the phone you can't give anyone good information.
Who? What?
Here was my submission-
Suspected the PMGS would be around 8s with a couple maybe being lower.
The Spidy Metal Blaster and Spidy Impel I hoped for 10s and bamn (very excited!!).
But this. Still dumb-founded. Maybe it's the corners? Dang they are really taking off for that if so. Actually thought this had a chance at a 10. THREE grades down from 9-Mint- which outside of the corners, I'm still not seeing anything to knock it down.
And seems a little extreme to dock it at all. Included pictures of other 1994/1995 pack-pulled MTG cards... it's very common for the concave inwards like that of the corners. Even a BGS "9" I bought on eBay shows signs of it and seemingly wasn't docked at all (or at most from a 10 to a 9). See below --->
Definitely more hesitate to submit older MTG cards to PSA.
Maybe. Older cards is where the love should be (!!).
Want to reiterate totally get that there is discretion, opinion, and judgment involved in grading (a human element). Just don't get a 6... even a 7 I could kinda stomach... wouldn't be happy but wouldn't be like what the flying heck. Something really went wrong (thought they were double checked too) or FYI they really take off for the corner thing.
Well, if you cracked that out of a pack that pack had been handled a lot. There's a big either print defect or wear spot next to the set symbol. Unless that's glare. Cards from before Fallen Empires are pretty delicate.
None of these cards see play. Cards that don't get played are real tough to get money out of.
Plug alert.
This artist sells original art on erased MTG backed cards and MTG proofs. Amy Weber posts a lot on eBay. I think stuff like this is cool. She's one of the original MTG artists. Her eBay user name is orion713.
There's nothing on the card. Will just have to take my word for it. Really don't want to take more time to post more pictures unless it's for PSA.
It's not that it's delicate either. It's a thing with CCGs - especially MTG and mid 90s. Both the size and sharpness (the concave inward effect I tried to show) of corners vary. Again especially with early MTG. Can show a variety of other cards from sets in the 1990s - will gladly share pictures of those if it's not apparent from above. Might even have some sealed hiding around here I could crack and show too. The card above the Moorish Cavalry was broke out of a sealed box of Ice Age. There was absolutely no handling of the sealed product there as it was starter decks inside a box.
Keep in mind too. We have grading companies (believe BGS and maybe PSA?) not taking off for crimps on CCG cards which is crazy and another entirely seperate topic, LOL. Yet this Ydween seemed to be docked 3 grades for the manufacture corner thing.
The corners usually do flare a little bit. There is a lot of inconsistency in the shape of MTG corners. Corners can be recut.
Moorish Cavalry is an Arabian Nights card. Not Ice Age. There are 2 versions of Moorish Cavalry. Light and dark mana symbols. The grading companies don't seem to recognize the variations.
Some MTG people really like crimps. It is damage though. And, there are people out there who can crimp cards at will. It's a mark made with a tool. Roller marks too.
"the card above"... it's Rainbow Vale - Fallen Empires. Took a picture of a Crown of Ages too but didn't want to spam too many pictures. Thought that was from the Ice Age-Crown of Ages.
Side note- that's sad about the versions. So guessing they won't recognize the "white-spotted" Desert either... haven't seen many others recognize it in awhile either.
Crimps are not damage according to some professional graders - that's the point. Manufacturer mark. Personally I'm totally with you and I would call it something to the effect of damage but there are CCG card grades of 9-Mint out there of crimped cards. Really don't want to divert topic too much though or we should create a new thread about crimps. Main point is that a MTG card seemingly was knocked down to a 6 because of flair and inconsistency of MTG corners... all of which are typical of pack-pulled cards.
The white spot desert is something most people don't know about. It's not something that showed up on checklists. Not even ones that were recognizing variations early on.
A crimp is obviously damage. It's not something the manufacturer put there on purpose. It happened after the card was made. When the pack was being sealed. The thing is, a handful of people have collected that stuff and they lobby the grading companies to ignore it. Obviously not everything coming out of a pack is mint. Some stuff coming out of packs are damaged.
An off center card is just as flawed as a crimped card.
What you're not getting is that pack-pulled cards are not "typically" 10s. I keep referring people to Chris's ( @jordangretzkyfan ) thread which demonstrates this over and over again.
I say the same thing. The average pack pulled card is an 8. So for every 10, there's probably a 6 in there as well. If this is your first submission, and you are scratching your head on only one result, consider that extremely successful.
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Magic people aren't card people. The Magic community goes by entirely different rules than any other area of collecting.
The biggest problem with the Magic community is that they think a reprint is worth just as much as the original. Except in extreme cases. It's messing up the game.
In sports cards a chrome or finest version of a 52 Mantle reprint is worth nearly nothing relative to the value of the original. In Magic, if they made a foil version of a card that is played that has never been printed in foil, the foil version is generally worth a lot more than the first printing. It would also likely be more rare.
In sports cards if Mike Trout gets hot in 2015 and they reprint his rookie card the reprint has nearly no value. In Magic the reprint is valued nearly exactly the same as the original version. Sometimes people like the reprint more. They can even make it look different. Like 2011 Mike Trout Topps update picture with a 1981 Topps frame printed in 2015 is worth the same as the original 2011 version, in the Magic world. To card collectors that sounds silly. Really, the picture doesn't even need to be the same. If it says Mike Trout it has the same, or very similar value.
In Magic, WIzards of the Coast printed something like a TCMA All Time All Stars set, the packs would retail for some astronomical number and the dealers in the community would be lawyering up to sue Wizards of the Coast for 10s to 100s of millions of dollars.
When a new Magic card gets printed. The people running the game already know how it's going to perform on the field, for the most part. The market is rigged so that when a set is released, the major retailer prices that card according to how they think it's going to perform. Then the market follows. There is never a time when Pujols is 5 dollars. Everybody on the inside knows the card is going to hit 500 home runs and go to the hall before the card is even printed. Sometimes the cards do overperform. Then they get benched. Usually after all the fanatics have bought 4 copies each at full retail. Sometimes they resurrect Harmon Killebrew, make him a black dude, and change his name to Hermen Drinkkoke and sell him Killebrew prices.
Guys, I get pack-pulled cards aren't 10s. If they were, there would be a TON more 10s out there, lol. I didn't just randomly send in pack-pulled cards. Those Spidermans and the Ydween were looked over extremely carefully and only sent in at the $100 service because I thought they had chances at 10... suspected Ydween might be a 9 because of the corners and a couple other tiny tiny flaws. The Spiderman Metal is pop 1 so that should go to show I can spot a good grade pretty well. Can gladly share my next 20card submission after grades finish - bunch of 9 targets there with a few hopefully 10s.
The grade is completely based on the card. The issues are why a six and do they take off for the corner thing (and if so, how much).
The corner thing is impacted based how it's manufactured (or pack-pull, semantics). How a card is both manufactured and the material all impact what is considered Mint or gem-Mint. Also why I brought up the crimp thing. Some companies take the manufacturer thing to the extreme.
Guess I need to take more pictures of the card to show why it's definitely at least an 8 (zero question) excluding the corners. Pretty sure it's a 9 after looking over it again.
Most certainly did. That Scrye snapshot above did. Both Inquest and Scrye did all through the 90s. Sellers on eBay and other dealers in the 90s recognized it. Pretty sure I remember seeing them ~2005-2010 on eBay. Now it seems extinct, crazy.
I'd argue crimp is in PSA terms more a 5. It impacts corners, edges, and surface.
I have an inquest right here from 2006 and they don't list the white spot desert. I don't believe Scry did either. Neither did most of the checklists that were circulating in the 90s. They did list other variants. Obscure Arabian Nights variants isn't something most people know about. Most Magic players have never owned an Arabian Nights card. let alone know about variations. The white spot desert isn't rare. It's probably one 30% of the deserts. That's just a guess though.
A crimp is similar to a crease. I think a 4 is the best you can do on a creased card. I don't know if that is an actual rule though. But, some people really like it.
This is also a thing. In MTG they're called NFCs. Not Factory Cut. People cut sheets intentionally off center to make a cool looking result. Sometimes they're more off center than this. This is a picture from eBay of a card that is advertised as NFC. Last time I checked this was a 30 dollar card out of the pack since it's foil. Very popular card. It stops your opponent from casting spells at unpredictable times. But this NFC is listed at $60 dollars. This isn't something that Wizards of the Coast has any real control over. Other than being the source of the uncut sheets. Unless the NFCs are coming from their factory.
People like factory cut cards that are very off center too. But, they should still grade low. Buy the card, not the holder, right?
I like stuff like that too. But, I dont think stuff like this should grade like a card that isn't off center or be incredibly expensive. I also don't like qualifiers. I bought this within the last couple years. I'm sure it was cheap. No idea if the signature is real. What would this card grade? It should probably just grade an A. But, is the Teferi above really Authentic? It's kinda not Authentic because it wasn't cut by the factory and was intentionally cut incorrectly.
Desert is also the most common card in Arabian Nights. It's a C11. I believe the white spot deserts are more common that 1/11. I don't think the spot is a print defect. On eBay they're calling them camp fire deserts.