@LanceNewmanOCC said:
for anyone wondering about the discoverer, Capt mentioned it in the OP - Pete Apple.
No, the discoverer was James Elliott. He looked at one of the DDO coins and figured out that the extra metal to the right of the top of the 3 could not be from another 3. He then set out to prove it. Pete Apple referred him to me.
TD
thank you for clarification. i see how i read that wrong now. frustrating as i read it several times to accurately grab the context.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
The best person I can think of to help get this attributed at pcgs is Steve Feltner: SFeltner@collectors.com . He will definitely direct you to the right person if he’s not it himself.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@bolivarshagnasty said:
So all 43-s fs-101 would actually be an over date rather than a doubled die. Interesting re-establishment of an existing variety.
It is a class 3 doubled die - where a single die was hubbed with 2 different designs (in this case, the design difference is that one hub is dated 1943 and the other is dated 1942). All post-1908 "overdates" are class 3 doubled dies - in these cases, the only way you can have one date over another is by impressing a die with 2 different design hubs, as after 1908, the dates are no longer punched onto the dies by hand (they are part of the completed hub design).
Exactly. A doubled die caused by misaligned impressions from two differently-dated hubs.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
i look forward to seeing the new inserts and some sales results to see how the collecting public react to such an interesting piece/change, on a steelie no less.
@LanceNewmanOCC said:
i look forward to seeing the new inserts and some sales results to see how the collecting public react to such an interesting piece/change, on a steelie no less.
Who will have the first one in a PCGS 1943/2-S slab?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@BuffaloIronTail said:
An overdate is also a Doubled Die, from what I was led to believe.
Pete
there MAY be exceptions as i think the mint did use 4 digit punches at some point. i'm not certain if those 4 digit punches resulted in mixed dates through. nothing is coming to me currently but will be interesting to see if someone can think of one, if one exists. but you are right about the doubled die thing like Ikes and Capt mentioned above.
@LanceNewmanOCC said:
i look forward to seeing the new inserts and some sales results to see how the collecting public react to such an interesting piece/change, on a steelie no less.
Who will have the first one in a PCGS 1943/2-S slab?
.
the person that discovered this, i hope.
i don't think we will be able to tell from the pops if they just convert the old one into the new?
@BuffaloIronTail said:
An overdate is also a Doubled Die, from what I was led to believe.
Pete
there MAY be exceptions as i think the mint did use 4 digit punches at some point. i'm not certain if those 4 digit punches resulted in mixed dates through. nothing is coming to me currently but will be interesting to see if someone can think of one, if one exists. but you are right about the doubled die thing like Ikes and Capt mentioned above.
Up through the year 1908, dates were punched onto the dies by hand, just like mint marks. It wasn't until 1909 that dates were added to the master hubs.
Overdates from 1908 and earlier are analogous to over mint marks, just as repunched dates are analogous to repunched mint marks. They are not linked to any other doubling on the rest of the die, as they were punched in by hand after the hubbing process was complete.
@BuffaloIronTail said:
An overdate is also a Doubled Die, from what I was led to believe.
Pete
there MAY be exceptions as i think the mint did use 4 digit punches at some point. i'm not certain if those 4 digit punches resulted in mixed dates through. nothing is coming to me currently but will be interesting to see if someone can think of one, if one exists. but you are right about the doubled die thing like Ikes and Capt mentioned above.
Up through the year 1908, dates were punched onto the dies by hand, just like mint marks. It wasn't until 1909 that dates were added to the master hubs.
Overdates from 1908 and earlier are analogous to over mint marks, just as repunched dates are analogous to repunched mint marks. They are not linked to any other doubling on the rest of the die, as they were punched in by hand after the hubbing process was complete.
thanks. i think that was kinda the point i was trying to get to as i thought about overdates vs doubled dies/rehubbed with different dates.
that is to say, that there are overdates out there that are NOT doubled/rehubbed or whatever.
i know you and others have mentioned this and some other technical stuff, repeatedly and all i can say is my capacity to encode/recall information has its limits so if you see me comment about something it seems like should be obvious and/or have been covered, please allow a little latitude.
there really is just no end to the amount of information about numismatics and i get myself WAY out on a limb many a time for a variety of reason but ahead we tread!
Comments
thank you for clarification. i see how i read that wrong now. frustrating as i read it several times to accurately grab the context.
TTT
The best person I can think of to help get this attributed at pcgs is Steve Feltner: SFeltner@collectors.com . He will definitely direct you to the right person if he’s not it himself.
It is a class 3 doubled die - where a single die was hubbed with 2 different designs (in this case, the design difference is that one hub is dated 1943 and the other is dated 1942). All post-1908 "overdates" are class 3 doubled dies - in these cases, the only way you can have one date over another is by impressing a die with 2 different design hubs, as after 1908, the dates are no longer punched onto the dies by hand (they are part of the completed hub design).
https://varietyerrors.com/doubled-die-class-3/
Exactly. A doubled die caused by misaligned impressions from two differently-dated hubs.
i look forward to seeing the new inserts and some sales results to see how the collecting public react to such an interesting piece/change, on a steelie no less.
Who will have the first one in a PCGS 1943/2-S slab?
An overdate is also a Doubled Die, from what I was led to believe.
Pete
there MAY be exceptions as i think the mint did use 4 digit punches at some point. i'm not certain if those 4 digit punches resulted in mixed dates through. nothing is coming to me currently but will be interesting to see if someone can think of one, if one exists. but you are right about the doubled die thing like Ikes and Capt mentioned above.
.
the person that discovered this, i hope.
i don't think we will be able to tell from the pops if they just convert the old one into the new?
Up through the year 1908, dates were punched onto the dies by hand, just like mint marks. It wasn't until 1909 that dates were added to the master hubs.
Overdates from 1908 and earlier are analogous to over mint marks, just as repunched dates are analogous to repunched mint marks. They are not linked to any other doubling on the rest of the die, as they were punched in by hand after the hubbing process was complete.
thanks. i think that was kinda the point i was trying to get to as i thought about overdates vs doubled dies/rehubbed with different dates.
that is to say, that there are overdates out there that are NOT doubled/rehubbed or whatever.
i know you and others have mentioned this and some other technical stuff, repeatedly and all i can say is my capacity to encode/recall information has its limits so if you see me comment about something it seems like should be obvious and/or have been covered, please allow a little latitude.
there really is just no end to the amount of information about numismatics and i get myself WAY out on a limb many a time for a variety of reason but ahead we tread!