@cameonut2011 said:
Apparently CAC determines what is market acceptable for a large portion of the coin market.
It is actually not that large on a global scale, more like a niche in mostly US mint issues and only a portion of those. Although their numbers of coins seen sound big, really, not that much.............. For example, I have 200 tokens in N and P holders, CAC don't do 'em. I have british coins in holders, CAC don't do 'em, etc. etc. So they are really only part of a limited numismatic area. So they can't possibly determine what is market acceptable for most of the numismatic market.
I don’t believe there is that much gradeflation as mentioned in this thread. I have had a few coins come back conservatively strictly graded by PCGS. This thinking that only older holders are conservatively graded is part illusion
First, I'm not certain that PCGS would grade a couple of coins with clear staple scratches as a "straight grade" based on how
they are grading coins today. If that does happen, I agree that the worst trade/auction record for that particular issue DOES dictate how much your "Gem for the Grade" coin is worth. As an active participant in the market for 35+ years, I can assure you that dealers AND collectors use these low public trades to determine what to pay for a particular coin at any given time. I've had it happen thousands of times by both dealers AND collectors.
Second, the grading game changed considerably when PCGS started grading coins "Genuine". This gave the graders the ability to "no grade" coins that were really liner coins. IMHO, this has made it too easy for them to no grade these types of coins. Accurately grading a wide range of coins is very difficult, and this is evident by the range of coins we all see out on the market. For 20-25 years PCGS did not have a genuine service (although they did body bag coins that did not meet their
standards), and they used a net grade to assign a value to those coins which were not perfect, but really deserved to be
certified. We've all seen AU 50 coins downgraded to EF 40 holders with slight problems that were straight graded prior to the Genuine designation. The problem IMO is that many of these coins would "No Grade" today if cracked out, and these
coins DO have an effect on nice coins for the grade. Again, IMO is was not a coincidence that CAC began around the same
time that the grading services started using the Genuine designation. CAC has really become the standard to distinguish
the quality in coins in each grade, probably even more so than JA had originally envisioned.
@Joey29 said:
I don’t believe there is that much gradeflation as mentioned in this thread. I have had a few coins come back conservatively strictly graded by PCGS. This thinking that only older holders are conservatively graded is part illusion
The population increases of a great many coins offer good evidence regarding grade-flation. I don’t believe that there’s nearly as little of it as you seem to think.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I’m sorry I disagree. Consider the following hypothetical: There are three Capped Bust Half Dollars in the same grade. Eye appeal and Overton variety are the same. All are PCGS CAC in the same generation of TPG plastic. All are “fresh” to the market and are sold in the same venue close in time. Two of the coins have very visible staple scratches. These two sell at auction for a discount price notwithstanding being blessed by PCGS and CAC who apparently opine the scratch has toned over sufficiently to be given a free pass. You sell your flawless coin without the distracting scratch where it fetched the same or for only a nominal amount more.
You may retort that collectors will look at the coin and recognize your coin is superior, but this occurs rather infrequently. Indeed, most people looking for “comps” look little past the prices realized. “But yeah those scratched ones were CACed too…” This is precisely the mechanism proposed for grade inflation destroying the hobby and the price guides.
What you have described most likely has been happening; but, in today strong market? Buyers are being more aggressive; in bidding, especially with coins that do not appear frequently that they "need.".
It is generally assumed that CAC coins sell for a premium which in turn, attracts the higher end buyers. But, at the same time, those buyers are the most particular and pass on coins that do not meet their personal standards.
I’m sorry I disagree. Consider the following hypothetical: There are three Capped Bust Half Dollars in the same grade. Eye appeal and Overton variety are the same. All are PCGS CAC in the same generation of TPG plastic. All are “fresh” to the market and are sold in the same venue close in time. Two of the coins have very visible staple scratches. These two sell at auction for a discount price notwithstanding being blessed by PCGS and CAC who apparently opine the scratch has toned over sufficiently to be given a free pass. You sell your flawless coin without the distracting scratch where it fetched the same or for only a nominal amount more.
You may retort that collectors will look at the coin and recognize your coin is superior, but this occurs rather infrequently. Indeed, most people looking for “comps” look little past the prices realized. “But yeah those scratched ones were CACed too…” This is precisely the mechanism proposed for grade inflation destroying the hobby and the price guides.
What you have described most likely has been happening; but, in today strong market? Buyers are being more aggressive; in bidding, especially with coins that do not appear frequently that they "need.".
It is generally assumed that CAC coins sell for a premium which in turn, attracts the higher end buyers. But, at the same time, those buyers are the most particular and pass on coins that do not meet their personal standards.
You could also run the same hypothetical with the better coin getting better money. The hypothetical, as presented, rarely happens. Better coins usually bring better money.
Comments
It is actually not that large on a global scale, more like a niche in mostly US mint issues and only a portion of those. Although their numbers of coins seen sound big, really, not that much.............. For example, I have 200 tokens in N and P holders, CAC don't do 'em. I have british coins in holders, CAC don't do 'em, etc. etc. So they are really only part of a limited numismatic area. So they can't possibly determine what is market acceptable for most of the numismatic market.
I don’t believe there is that much gradeflation as mentioned in this thread. I have had a few coins come back conservatively strictly graded by PCGS. This thinking that only older holders are conservatively graded is part illusion
First, I'm not certain that PCGS would grade a couple of coins with clear staple scratches as a "straight grade" based on how
they are grading coins today. If that does happen, I agree that the worst trade/auction record for that particular issue DOES dictate how much your "Gem for the Grade" coin is worth. As an active participant in the market for 35+ years, I can assure you that dealers AND collectors use these low public trades to determine what to pay for a particular coin at any given time. I've had it happen thousands of times by both dealers AND collectors.
Second, the grading game changed considerably when PCGS started grading coins "Genuine". This gave the graders the ability to "no grade" coins that were really liner coins. IMHO, this has made it too easy for them to no grade these types of coins. Accurately grading a wide range of coins is very difficult, and this is evident by the range of coins we all see out on the market. For 20-25 years PCGS did not have a genuine service (although they did body bag coins that did not meet their
standards), and they used a net grade to assign a value to those coins which were not perfect, but really deserved to be
certified. We've all seen AU 50 coins downgraded to EF 40 holders with slight problems that were straight graded prior to the Genuine designation. The problem IMO is that many of these coins would "No Grade" today if cracked out, and these
coins DO have an effect on nice coins for the grade. Again, IMO is was not a coincidence that CAC began around the same
time that the grading services started using the Genuine designation. CAC has really become the standard to distinguish
the quality in coins in each grade, probably even more so than JA had originally envisioned.
The population increases of a great many coins offer good evidence regarding grade-flation. I don’t believe that there’s nearly as little of it as you seem to think.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
What you have described most likely has been happening; but, in today strong market? Buyers are being more aggressive; in bidding, especially with coins that do not appear frequently that they "need.".
It is generally assumed that CAC coins sell for a premium which in turn, attracts the higher end buyers. But, at the same time, those buyers are the most particular and pass on coins that do not meet their personal standards.
You could also run the same hypothetical with the better coin getting better money. The hypothetical, as presented, rarely happens. Better coins usually bring better money.