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A rare denarius of Otho

MKUltra24MKUltra24 Posts: 652 ✭✭✭✭
edited May 12, 2022 5:16PM in World & Ancient Coins Forum

I collect Roman denarius coins and I’ve been trying to collect an example of a denarius with a portrait every Emperor of Rome.

Due to Otho’s extremely short reign of 3 months and the very limited number of denarii he minted in those 3 months I had been having some trouble finding an example of his.

But I managed to pickup this one last night and I’m super proud of it :)

Now I just need Galba and I’ll have all 4 of the Emperors in the Year of the Four Emperors of 69 AD.

Otho (January-April AD 69). AR denarius (20mm, 7h). ANACS Good 6. Rome, 15 January-9 March AD 69. IMP M OTHO CAESAR AVG TR P, bare, bewigged head of Otho right / VICTORIA-OTHONIS, Victory alighting right, with wreath in right hand, palm branch in left. RIC I 14. Note there is an error on the holder for the weight.

It’s also my only ANACS coin since my others are NGC. But that ANACS slab saved me some money and I feel the grade is correct and that NGC would give it the same grade. xD

Comments

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,898 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I agree with the grade. Even better is the very clear portrait and name "OTHO". It is a good space filler until a better one comes along.

    I had a complete set of the 12 Caesars back in the 1980's. I regret selling the set as all of

    All glory is fleeting.
  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,898 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Oops! Some of my previous post disappeared.

    I regret selling the set of 12 Caesars as all of the coins in it were nice. All were very well centered and well struck. I hate to think of what it would cost to recreate that set today.

    All glory is fleeting.
  • ashelandasheland Posts: 22,612 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You have some splendid examples!

  • PillarDollarCollectorPillarDollarCollector Posts: 4,662 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Great collection thanks for sharing!!

    Collecting interests: Mexico & Peru early milled 1 reales + 1796-1891 US dimes

    Sports: NHL & NFL

    Thank you Lord for another beautiful day!!!

  • MKUltra24MKUltra24 Posts: 652 ✭✭✭✭

    @291fifth said:
    I agree with the grade. Even better is the very clear portrait and name "OTHO". It is a good space filler until a better one comes along.

    I had a complete set of the 12 Caesars back in the 1980's. I regret selling the set as all of

    Aw bummer :(.

    I’m trying to collect a denarius of all of the Emperors of Rome and the Twelve Caesar’s are definitely the hardest to get and the most expensive.

    However I received some news that this Otho may be a fake so I might be sending this back to Heritage since it was advertised as an authentic denarius of Otho.

    Caligula & Claudius seem to be the ones I might never get :(

  • MKUltra24MKUltra24 Posts: 652 ✭✭✭✭

    Edit: Turns out this Otho is potentially a fake. It hasn’t been 100% confirmed yet but very suspicious.

    I apologize I had no idea :(

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,898 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MKUltra24 said:
    Edit: Turns out this Otho is potentially a fake. It hasn’t been 100% confirmed yet but very suspicious.

    I apologize I had no idea :(

    Please keep us filled in on this. If it is a fake it is very deceptive.

    All glory is fleeting.
  • MKUltra24MKUltra24 Posts: 652 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 16, 2022 11:32AM

    @291fifth said:

    @MKUltra24 said:
    Edit: Turns out this Otho is potentially a fake. It hasn’t been 100% confirmed yet but very suspicious.

    I apologize I had no idea :(

    Please keep us filled in on this. If it is a fake it is very deceptive.

    Yup it’s fake! I only found out because someone on the Coin Talk forums pointed out some concerns and then emailed an expert who had no doubts that it was fake.

    Fortunately I emailed Heritage with the experts concerns and they had their own expert give it another look over and they agreed it was fake and they agreed to issue a refund to me.

    At least I’m not out any money.

  • MKUltra24MKUltra24 Posts: 652 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 16, 2022 3:31PM

    @291fifth said:

    @MKUltra24 said:
    Edit: Turns out this Otho is potentially a fake. It hasn’t been 100% confirmed yet but very suspicious.

    I apologize I had no idea :(

    Please keep us filled in on this. If it is a fake it is very deceptive.

    Just heard back from Heritage.

    Yup it’s a fake. Confirmed by Dr. Jyrki Muono from Helsinki who informed me that of all the 500+ dies he has recorded none of them matched the coin I bought.

    Plus a bunch of other issues with the letters and the portrait design.

    Heritage agreed to a refund so I’m glad they back up what they sell.

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,898 ✭✭✭✭✭

    500 known dies from a short lived emperor. That tells you something about the economy of the Roman Empire in the first century!

    All glory is fleeting.
  • MKUltra24MKUltra24 Posts: 652 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 16, 2022 5:41PM

    @291fifth said:
    500 known dies from a short lived emperor. That tells you something about the economy of the Roman Empire in the first century!

    Yeah for sure! Thank goodness there are people who take the time to record & document them all so fakes can be identified.

    There is something about counterfeiting that really frustrates me.

    Barry Murphy from NGC commented about this coin today and said ANACS is pretty bad at identifying fake ancients but that they do a good job with US coins.

    Here is what Dr. Muona said about it:

    “There is absolutely NO chance that it is genuine Rome mint Otho.
    The dots before M (faint) and after M in the IMP M OTHO obverse legend do not exist in any of the more than 500 dies I have recorded.
    The letter "I" in IMP starts in straight line from the extension of the neck. In all known right facing dies it is left of it and underneath the portrait.
    The shape of the back of the head and its hairdo are abnormal.
    The obverse legend break between CAESAR and AVG is at the forehead/hairline point. This is extremely rare, only four such dies are known.
    The head is unusually small, though not impossible.
    The weight is ridiculously high. Said to be a mistake. What rubbish for a slabbed coin that cannot be weighed now.
    HERITAGE uses, I believe David Vagi and NGC for authentication. I bet anything he has not seen this thing reputedly authenticated by another firm. Who knows, perhaps the slabbing is a fake?. Should be returned and knowing HERITAGE - a fine firm - there is no problem.
    s.
    Jyrki Muona
    professor emeritus
    Helsinki”

  • PillarDollarCollectorPillarDollarCollector Posts: 4,662 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sorry to hear it is a fake but at least you will get your money back. Hold your head up you will find another one.

    Collecting interests: Mexico & Peru early milled 1 reales + 1796-1891 US dimes

    Sports: NHL & NFL

    Thank you Lord for another beautiful day!!!

  • MKUltra24MKUltra24 Posts: 652 ✭✭✭✭

    @KingOfMorganDollar said:
    Sorry to hear it is a fake but at least you will get your money back. Hold your head up you will find another one.

    Yeah it’s a bummer :(. Otho denarii are really hard to find. Let alone win at a decent price:

    But you’re right at least I found out it was fake before they shipped it to me and didn’t lose any money.

  • PillarDollarCollectorPillarDollarCollector Posts: 4,662 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 17, 2022 9:17PM

    @MKUltra24 said:

    @KingOfMorganDollar said:
    Sorry to hear it is a fake but at least you will get your money back. Hold your head up you will find another one.

    Yeah it’s a bummer :(. Otho denarii are really hard to find. Let alone win at a decent price:

    But you’re right at least I found out it was fake before they shipped it to me and didn’t lose any money.

    Keep this in mind many (not all) rare coins come up for sale at some point or another it sucks sure but the chase is also fun.

    Collecting interests: Mexico & Peru early milled 1 reales + 1796-1891 US dimes

    Sports: NHL & NFL

    Thank you Lord for another beautiful day!!!

  • MKUltra24MKUltra24 Posts: 652 ✭✭✭✭

    @KingOfMorganDollar said:

    @MKUltra24 said:

    @KingOfMorganDollar said:
    Sorry to hear it is a fake but at least you will get your money back. Hold your head up you will find another one.

    Yeah it’s a bummer :(. Otho denarii are really hard to find. Let alone win at a decent price:

    But you’re right at least I found out it was fake before they shipped it to me and didn’t lose any money.

    Keep this in mind many (not all) rare coins come up for sale at some point or another it sucks sure but the chase is also fun.

    Yeah that’s true. It just shakes my confidence in the “experts” a little bit because even Heritage wasn’t able to detect it as a fake.

    Most of my ancient Roman coins were purchased from Heritage because I like the wide variety and I can’t help but have doubts now about my other coins.

    I wish PCGS or NGC would allow people to pay extra to have coins authenticated and backed up with a guarantee like US coins.

    Now I am aware the main argument against that is that ancient coins can’t really be guaranteed 100% because of the fact that they are ancients but NGC seems to be doing just fine. I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a fake in an NGC holder. If it has happened it certainly isn’t a common thing.

    So by charging an additional fee on coins for that “guarantee” they could put some of that money aside in case they accidentally make a mistake and slab a fake.

    That’s how insurance companies do it. When a ship goes to sea they can’t guarantee 100% it won’t sink but by spreading the risk across many ships and voyages they limit the consequences of 1 ship sinking.

  • John ConduittJohn Conduitt Posts: 350 ✭✭✭

    @MKUltra24 said:
    Yeah that’s true. It just shakes my confidence in the “experts” a little bit because even Heritage wasn’t able to detect it as a fake.

    Most of my ancient Roman coins were purchased from Heritage because I like the wide variety and I can’t help but have doubts now about my other coins.

    I wish PCGS or NGC would allow people to pay extra to have coins authenticated and backed up with a guarantee like US coins.

    >
    It’s worrying that a TPG thought it was genuine even though someone on a forum on the internet with nothing but photos through a slab is able to reel off a long list of reasons why it’s suspicious. The legend style is obvious now they mention it. Lucky the forgers didn’t try too hard to make it authentic.

    It’s just as worrying Heritage have gone so far down the slabbing route they might not even be checking the coins they’re selling. They’re surely making enough money to glance at it. It’s not good enough to rely solely on a money-back guarantee. Not everyone posts their coins on forums.

  • MKUltra24MKUltra24 Posts: 652 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2022 1:29AM

    @JohnConduitt said:

    @MKUltra24 said:
    Yeah that’s true. It just shakes my confidence in the “experts” a little bit because even Heritage wasn’t able to detect it as a fake.

    Most of my ancient Roman coins were purchased from Heritage because I like the wide variety and I can’t help but have doubts now about my other coins.

    I wish PCGS or NGC would allow people to pay extra to have coins authenticated and backed up with a guarantee like US coins.

    >
    It’s worrying that a TPG thought it was genuine even though someone on a forum on the internet with nothing but photos through a slab is able to reel off a long list of reasons why it’s suspicious. The legend style is obvious now they mention it. Lucky the forgers didn’t try too hard to make it authentic.

    It’s just as worrying Heritage have gone so far down the slabbing route they might not even be checking the coins they’re selling. They’re surely making enough money to glance at it. It’s not good enough to rely solely on a money-back guarantee. Not everyone posts their coins on forums.

    Yeah I agree but I don’t want to be too hard on Heritage because their employees are super helpful and friendly and they are good at their jobs.

    My criticism about this coin being sold as real is more at the business Heritage Auctions as a whole. They should have experts double checking every coin regardless of the TPG that checked it.

    If they don’t look how would they know if the slab itself was a really good counterfeit?

    I can go online right now and buy an 1893 S Morgan Dollar counterfeit graded MS64 with a counterfeit CAC sticker in a counterfeit PCGS holder from China for $44.99 on Ali Baba.

    I just think they need to have a policy that mandates all coins over say $100 be examined in hand by an expert in whatever category the coin is (Ancients, US, World etc.,) employed by Heritage to make sure nothing fake ends up even being listed let alone sold and the customer charged and already paid for.

    If they had noticed it was a fake and contacted me it would’ve been a little different but there should never be a case where the customer has to inform the auction house that what they sold to the customer was a counterfeit.

    Again none of this is directed at individual employees. Every employee I’ve been in contact with has been professional, friendly, and helpful.

    It almost makes it hard to be too upset. But I can’t help but be really annoyed by it and the way it shook my confidence as someone who has spent a lot of money with Heritage.

    I mean I did keep my eye on that coin for a month and I thought I got a good deal on a rare coin and then the disappointment of paying for it and then finding out it is fake so it’s hard not to be disappointed. I know I got a refund but it was a big hassle that caused a lot of anxiety for me and then I had to go through all that effort to find out it was fake and let Heritage know and all of it was for nothing because I didn’t get the coin even though I did everything correctly and paid within 12 hours of receiving the invoice.

    I think anyone would feel that way.

  • SapyxSapyx Posts: 1,977 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I noticed that the obverse lettering style looked odd to me, and almost posted about it at the time, but didn't want to be the wet blanket, raising unproven suspicions with only a vague "feeling", against whichever experts ANACS might have been employing at the time. I certainly don't have enough experience with Otho coins to be authoritative.

    That is (or should be) the goal of every ancients collector: honing those "feelings" about authenticity, so that they're right much more often than wrong.

    @MKUltra24 said:
    I just think they need to have a policy that mandates all coins over say $100 be examined in hand by an expert in whatever category the coin is (Ancients, US, World etc.,) employed by Heritage to make sure nothing fake ends up even being listed let alone sold and the customer charged and already paid for.

    They already do this, to the best of their ability. So do the slabbing companies. The trouble is, as always, one of time and money. Suppose their on-staff experts are good enough to catch, say, 90% of deceptively fake ancients submitted to them (this isn't counting the "tourist fakes" that every coin dealer can probably spot). Hiring another generalist "ancient coin expert" raises that detection rate to, say, 95%.

    But to raise that detection rate to, say, 99.5%, they'd have to hire a literal legion of experts in the various fields and categories of ancient coins - because there's no such thing as a generalist "ancient coin expert" who's that good at fake detection. And if they have a whole bunch of, say, Early Imperial Roman coins ot sell, then they'd have to hire that Early Roman Imperial expert (or a couple of them) for however long it takes to authenticate all the items for their upcoming sales. And authenticating an ancient usually takes a lot longer than the 30 seconds the average coin submitted to a TPG is allocated. At least two "experts" looked at this coin - one at Heritage, and one at ANACS - and neither of them had that combination of skill and time to detect this particular fake before the sale deadline.

    If they employ more experts or spend more time per coin, who pays for that additional hired expertise? Ultimately, you the collector would have to pay for it, in the form of increased buyer's and seller's premiums the auction company would charge, and increased fees the slabbing company would charge. Your only ironclad-guarantee defense is to buy from reputable sources, that not only are as "expert" as can reasonably be attained, but also offer an absolute, unconditional "for eternity" refund policy, should one of their coins turn out to be fake in ten, twenty or more years time, when fake detection methods will have improved. And yes, I woud include Heritage as one of those ironclad-guarantee companies - as they have already demonstrated to you.

    @MKUltra24 said:
    If they had noticed it was a fake and contacted me it would’ve been a little different but there should never be a case where the customer has to inform the auction house that what they sold to the customer was a counterfeit.

    Unfortunately, that's not how the ancient coin market is. Collectors self-report fakes they have bought all the time, often long after completing the purchase. Because, unfortunately, even that whole legion of hired experts cannot make certain about that final 0.5% of top-tier, fooling-all-the-experts fakes that are no doubt out there. Absolute 100% certainty of authenticity is impossible to obtain with ancient coins - which is why none of the TPGs extend their authenticity guarantee to ancients.

    Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one.
    Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"

    Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD. B)
  • PillarDollarCollectorPillarDollarCollector Posts: 4,662 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2022 10:25AM

    Don't be to paranoid there are some fakes in holders but most likely a tiny tiny minority. Keep buying from HA at least there is discovered you get your money back. Enjoy your hobby.

    Look at the coin better next time around and if you have concerns call them to have one of their experts look at it before you bid and them send you an e-mail stating it is authentic for peace of mind.

    Maybe stick with NGC or PCGS moving forward but that is just my 2 cents.

    Collecting interests: Mexico & Peru early milled 1 reales + 1796-1891 US dimes

    Sports: NHL & NFL

    Thank you Lord for another beautiful day!!!

  • John ConduittJohn Conduitt Posts: 350 ✭✭✭

    @Sapyx said:
    They already do this, to the best of their ability. So do the slabbing companies. The trouble is, as always, one of time and money. Suppose their on-staff experts are good enough to catch, say, 90% of deceptively fake ancients submitted to them (this isn't counting the "tourist fakes" that every coin dealer can probably spot). Hiring another generalist "ancient coin expert" raises that detection rate to, say, 95%.

    I think the issue is that the coin is not a very deceptive fake (not one of the 5%) and yet got through two layers of 'scrutiny'. It wouldn't be reassuring to find out Heritage doesn't really check slabbed coins in the <$10,000 category and decided to take the relatively modest hit on a few fakes if the buyers ever find out. That might work for their bottom line but it's not great service for us. We're expecting 2 layers of scrutiny, not one. Indeed, we bid higher on coins sold at Heritage because of it, so they should be able to afford the expertise to check coins.

    @KingOfMorganDollar said:
    Don't be to paranoid there are some fakes in holders but most likely a tiny tiny minority. Keep buying from HA at least there is discovered you get your money back. Enjoy your hobby.

    Look at the coin better next time around and if you have concerns call them to have one of their experts look at it before you bid and them send you an e-mail stating it is authentic for peace of mind.

    Maybe stick with NGC or PCGS moving forward but that is just my 2 cents.

    The OP trusted in the 'tiny tiny minority' belief and wound up with 1 fake in 18 slabbed purchases (hopefully only one!). They also had a bruising experience that's put them off collecting.

    But I guess trusting less in the slab is a good thing. You have to rely more on yourself - learning the style of the coins and what the fakes look like. I often go for coins with reliable provenance, such as hoard coins or those with findspots. You can either get them directly from the dealer dispersing the hoard or see they're published somewhere you can check e.g. the hoard's auction catalogue or the PAS website. That likely means sacrificing on looks, however, since far too many coins have no provenance and you have fewer coins to choose from. (If I was to make one change to the hobby, it would be to make recording a proven provenance much higher up people's priorities than putting the coin in a slab).

  • PillarDollarCollectorPillarDollarCollector Posts: 4,662 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2022 1:40PM

    I get it but if not certain then ask the experts over at HA at least you get their opinion and then also use your your own knowledge. My guess all his other coins are the real deal. And personally I would stick with NGC for ancient coins.

    Collecting interests: Mexico & Peru early milled 1 reales + 1796-1891 US dimes

    Sports: NHL & NFL

    Thank you Lord for another beautiful day!!!

  • MKUltra24MKUltra24 Posts: 652 ✭✭✭✭

    @KingOfMorganDollar said:
    I get it but if not certain then ask the experts over at HA at least you get their opinion and then also use your your own knowledge. My guess all his other coins are the real deal. And personally I would stick with NGC for ancient coins.

    Fortunately all my other ancients are indeed NGC.

    Today my Vitellius denarius arrived in the mail and he is also a rare emperor like Otho except everyone I’ve asked said that the Vitellius looked authentic.

    The Otho denarius is the first time I ever paid for any coin in an ANACS holder and my trust and faith were more in Heritage than in ANACS.

    I collect US coins too and I know that ANACS has always been viewed as inferior to PCGS & NGC and that a graded coin in an ANACS holder doesn’t bring the same sales prices as that same coin & grade in a PCGS/NGC holder.

    Especially ANACS coins graded MS/PR 70.

  • PillarDollarCollectorPillarDollarCollector Posts: 4,662 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MKUltra24 said:

    @KingOfMorganDollar said:
    I get it but if not certain then ask the experts over at HA at least you get their opinion and then also use your your own knowledge. My guess all his other coins are the real deal. And personally I would stick with NGC for ancient coins.

    Fortunately all my other ancients are indeed NGC.

    Today my Vitellius denarius arrived in the mail and he is also a rare emperor like Otho except everyone I’ve asked said that the Vitellius looked authentic.

    The Otho denarius is the first time I ever paid for any coin in an ANACS holder and my trust and faith were more in Heritage than in ANACS.

    I collect US coins too and I know that ANACS has always been viewed as inferior to PCGS & NGC and that a graded coin in an ANACS holder doesn’t bring the same sales prices as that same coin & grade in a PCGS/NGC holder.

    Especially ANACS coins graded MS/PR 70.

    You would be best to stick with NGC they may cost more sometimes but to me they are #1 for ancients.

    Collecting interests: Mexico & Peru early milled 1 reales + 1796-1891 US dimes

    Sports: NHL & NFL

    Thank you Lord for another beautiful day!!!

  • John ConduittJohn Conduitt Posts: 350 ✭✭✭

    @KingOfMorganDollar said:
    I get it but if not certain then ask the experts over at HA at least you get their opinion and then also use your your own knowledge. My guess all his other coins are the real deal. And personally I would stick with NGC for ancient coins.

    Yes PCGS don't do ancients anyway. Although if you're having to limit yourself to NGC slabs, you might as well go for coins with provenance too and widen your choice!

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