Small blob on a Peruvian 4 Reales rim... is it solder or mint-made?
airplanenut
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I sold this coin recently, and the buyer (a long-time customer who is very knowledgeable) sent it back because of a small spot of solder on the edge. Having it back in hand, I'm wondering if it is indeed solder, or instead mint-made. On the solder side, it's a small blob of metal on the edge. On the non-solder side, on the reverse (but not obverse) a dentil extends slightly into it, and there's a small notch on the edge nearby, as well as an area with some extra metal extending beyond the edge of the dentils. My question is whether this is indeed solder, or a mint-made defect resulting from either how the planchet was made or perhaps a crude collar. The solder I'm used to seeing tends to be a bit sloppier, and overall I'm a bit intrigued by this coin. Admittedly I overlooked the little blob when I first handled the coin, but now that this has been pointed out, I'm curious to know what's going on.
Comments
You could carefully touch it with a hot soldering iron and see if it melts?
As struck
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
It does not look like solder to me. As struck.
broken collar, like a collar cud
No collars back then, but I do agree that's as made.
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No collars on genuine issues. It does look like a die break happened above the N in HISPAN on the reverse but it's curious that it's also right where one of the two overlaps of the edge design is visible, which would just be a coincidence on a genuine issue as the edging and upsetting mill was a completely different piece of equipment from the screw press. There should be another overlap directly opposite and I hope you know what it means if you can't find the second overlap.
Occam's razor: PMD. You are all overthinking this.
oh I see
I understand an implication that the coin may not be authentic, but I'm not sure I quite understand everything leading up to that, owing in part to some unfamiliarity with exactly how the edge design was put on. Are you saying that there are two places, 180 degrees apart, where two of the long designs will be adjacent to each other, where elsewhere it's an alternation of long and short? I'm not sure exactly what I'm looking for here.
I don’t think so
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
Indeed, right at one of the edge design overlaps - likely as made!!!
And Jack (and Roman, CCF gang in the house), it's absolutely a genuine piece. Fabric is ABSOLUTELY correct for an 1810s Lima 4R. I've often thought that one of our weak points of studying the manufacture of 8R on there has been not looking enough at other denominations like the 4R (where the edge design is still large and plainly visible) - and also gold.
airplanenut, the edge design overlaps itself at two points, 180 degrees apart on the edge. The other overlap should be around E and I of DEI. Can you show an edge pic of that spot?
PS - if that were mounting damage in that particular position, we would likely see 3 other solder points (that would likely be a 4-point mount if one were in that position). That does not appear to be what's going on here, though.
I find it curious that the rim design rib is intact on both sides of the lump. Peace Roy
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The piece of lint is between the D and E in DEI, and the coin is obverse-down in the photo. so the I is to the right of the piece of lint.
I don't see anything else that looks like a mount on the coin.
A coin run through a parallel edging mill, aka Castaing machine must have two points directly opposite each other on the edge where the coin rotates through the mill and the edging dies start to hit the portions that have already been edged. It looks like the dies meet just to the right of the piece of lint where the rectangle and circle are too close to each other to be part of the normal pattern.
Also the blanks were run through the upsetting and edging mill before being struck on the screw press so I think it's possible for a cud from a die break to extrude from the edge.
Even though it may not be 4th down, I think I am going to punt.
Seriously... I suspect it is some sort of cud as struck. I would really have to be sold on the solder theory through some type of testing... just not exactly sure how that would be completed whether it would be definitive. If it were solder would it be some sort of tin/lead mixture? The other issue is the location of the solder... what's the plan here? Not sure there really is one that is compelling.
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couldn't the upsetting mill crack in a way similar to a cud? nevertheless, if you're a buyer, you assume the next guy will think it's PMD so you return it, worth less because of the controversy
Sure, it could. In that case the design would be missing on this bump altogether, I'd guess. The Edge design rectangle seems to be deformed, stretched. One possibility could also be that the planchet had a split or extra metal that was pushed up during edging (edge design applied), but squished back down and out during the striking off the coin, deforming the edge design.
8 Reales Madness Collection