1909S-VDB Phony! Altered, (link included)
MarkW63
Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭✭
I approached this one with a little extra caution!
But the specifics I see are,
Reverse = Wrong font style for the "N" in UNITED!
Obverse = The mint mark is sloppy, but I thought maybe corrosion effect, then I noticed that the mint is tilted counter clockwise unlike any of the known 4 die sets, then looking closer the tails of the "S" are to open as compared to a genuine one.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/255532001513?hash=item3b7ee4e8e9:g:ZRkAAOSw1wtifFLp
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
3
Comments
The mintmark has been added. No doubt.
The coin also shows a lot of porosity.
Pete
business.
wonder if they'll take it down.
note only one side has the porosity.
looks like added mm
One thing to say about that mint mark - Yikes.
Coin Photographer.
I'm sure this is an oversite by the seller, they appear to have great feedback on ebay and appear to be a member here.
@InGodWeTrustCoins You may want to review your coin.
I didn't know the seller was a member, I'd like to think to the honest sellers & collectors we're being helpful, I know everyone here has the best of intentions for the coin collecting hobby.
I noticed the same seller has several other 09SVDB's listed and wow its a real joy to see so many excellent examples of this coin to choose from.
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Thank you everyone for pointing this out, we truly appreciate it. I have just removed the coin from eBay and our inventory.
InGodWeTrustCoinsandCurrency.com
Thank you for be Super reasonable about it, I (we) don't pick out sellers, we attempt to only focus on the coin. One thing is certain that in the very VIEW cases that one of these has turned up in a listing by reputable dealers they've always been Thankful for us spotting these and they just take care of it.
Thank you for taking the time to reply
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
The S looks like MM position #4 to me.
The shape looks a little different, but that could be due to the porosity - one can see traces of the MM that the pores partially obliterated, so that may make it look more "upright" than it really was. It may be an added MM, but there is some uncertainty around that IMO. If I owned the coin I would send it to PCGS - worth a shot.
Agree totally with Connecticoin, who beat me to it. IMO this coin is a genuine MM position 4 coin with damage at the mintmark area from the porosity. @InGodWeTrustCoins suggest you send it in.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Look at the counter clockwise lean of the mint mark, its location is deceptive, but its rotation is totally wrong.
Then there is that deep valley "N" in the UNITED on the reverse.
If the details of the designer's initials was clearer its likely to show incorrectly positioned (spacing) of the periods (dot) between the letter. Now, the dealer having the coin in hand could possibly change the lighting, view angle and may be able to make out the details of that area of the coin better than the image we are seeing.
The "S" mint mark also has other signs of problem in that the loop of it are to open, making it an incorrect font.
Thanks for your input, in helps to add helpful content to these thread
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Take another good look. The tilt is all wrong. So is the shape.
Pete
Well, if the mintmark was indeed added, the pitting/corrosion happened after it was added.
Would the problem with the "N" would suggest it was a die-transfer fake rather than an added mintmark?
Well I understand exactly what your saying, But! (I know we all hate that But!)
First here is my understanding about the deep & shallow valley "N".
Its somewhat understood that the earlier versions of the 09 Lincoln's from both mints had the shallow "N" some here on the forum have been calling the early strikes type 1 reverse & the deep valley's type 2.
So, there is tons of 09-P VDB's with the deep valley "N" (type 2 reverse) as well as the 09-S (no VDB).
Now if the designer's initials was a just a bit clearer I believe (???) that the period following the V would be low of the "V" and the period following the "D" might (???) be tucked up a little to close to the "D" but with what we're able to see neither is provable.
So, that leaves us with two aspects of the coin, the wrong "N" in UNITED and the not so questionable mint.
There is some here that agree about its location being will say okay.
But the tilt is incorrect even taking in the effects of corrosion.
Look closely at the basic shape of the mint mark, look at its counter clockwise rotation.
Follow the lines around the shape of the "S" notice how far the serif ends are from the center body of the letter as compared to the mint marks of a genuine one, its form is incorrect as well as incorrect rotation, there is corrosion effects to.
The seller, (dealer) will no doubt take a very close look at the coin, they have an advantage that we don't, they have the coin in hand.
If the coin had had the correct "N" then when I posted this one I would have removed the background from the images and posted them for opinions without a link to the listing.
Lets see if I can get a better zoomed image of the 4 known die set positions too.
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Keep in mind that this coin had another marker, now if someone can disprove this then the coin in OP does become a little more questionable?
Thanks for your input, this is what's expected when a coin like this shows up, discussions about it.
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Seller ended the auction.
Thanks for the "shallow N" info! Very informative, had not seen that diagnostic before.
It looks like the area around the mm has been smoothed some in the process of adding the s.
I didn't mention that but I for sure questioned the possible (????) tooling in & around the mint mark, glad someone else picked up on that.
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
I understand the arguments against this piece but still think it should be submitted.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Your the type of person that likes "proof in the pudding" and that's a good thing!
Thanks for your input
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
I realize this is a bit controversial, but I would like to procure one of these counterfeits to have it engraved as a personal token.
Any suggestions?
Z
Busy chasing Carr's . . . . . woof!
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Estate Sales,
Any reputable coin dealer with have bunches of them, but convincing them of your good intentions will be another matter. Dealers do what they can to keep these out of circulation. In fact they will often times keep these as much or more locked up than their coins that's on display!
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
I've been a foundry pattern maker and consultant for over 30 years ans porosity in a casting is caused by bad molten metal mixing that traps air in the liquified metal. And the air rises to the top of the casting when it is poured. So that is why you see porosity in the cope (top) side of a casting and the drag (bottom) side looks fine. So if this is indeed a cast coin it was poured with a bad metal mixture allowing air to be trapped into the liquified metal and poured too fast. Keep a lookout for others that look like this -
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"