1805 bust quarter attribution help

Vbowling299

Anyone able to help me with this one? I think the die crack is throwing me off. Thank you!

Andrew

numisma

This is B-2 (R.2). A later die state. Beautiful coin! My favorite series.

Omegaraptor

That is a beautiful Draped Bust Quarter. Concur with the above and die cracks actually help attribution a lot.

jesbroken

What is a good CBQ variety designation book for the series.
Jim

Walkerguy21D

@jesbroken said:
What is a good CBQ variety designation book for the series.
Jim

Is there anything newer than Browning’s book? Not sure, but that was the old bible.

jesbroken

Have no intentions of collecting the series but would like to have a book that designates which varieties they are.
AW Brownings book I owned at one time years ago. They are relatively inexpensive, so I'll pick up another.
Thanks
Jim

yosclimber

@Walkerguy21D said:

@jesbroken said:
What is a good CBQ variety designation book for the series.
Jim

Is there anything newer than Browning’s book? Not sure, but that was the old bible.

Yes, there are 2 fairly new books:
1. Tompkins (2008)
https://www.amazon.com/Early-United-States-Quarters-1796-1838/dp/B00CLHGV9Y
https://www.wizardcoinsupply.com/early-united-states-quarters-1796-1838.html
2. Rea/Peterson/Karoleff/Kovach (2010)
https://www.amazon.com/Quarter-Dollars-United-States-1796-1838/dp/B0097TP68Q

1TwoBits

Remove duplicate post.

1TwoBits

I agree with @numisma on the B-2 attribution. Getting to be a late die state with some die cracks off stars 10-13, but not the latest yet.

What’s going on with the marks from the field through Liberty’s bust, Andrew? While it may look like a die crack, I’m thinking a lamination issue or post mint damage.

Nice example!

1TwoBits

Vbowling299

@1TwoBits said:
I agree with @numisma on the B-2 attribution. Getting to be a late die state with some die cracks off stars 10-13, but not the latest yet.

What’s going on with the marks from the field through Liberty’s bust, Andrew? While it may look like a die crack, I’m thinking a lamination issue or post mint damage.

Nice example!

1TwoBits

It is a die break, showed to multiple dealers who confirmed. It goes from the rim up to the spot where it pops out more.

LanceNewmanOCC

nice coin, pics and presentation.

numisma

I have to agree with @1TwoBits regarding the obverse anomaly. He's correct that it is PMD or possibly a planchet lamination.

This is one of the those coins that can elicit controversy since it certainly does look like a die crack. My guess is that there was an ancient scratch in that area of the coin. A deep scratch will displace metal on either (or both) sides of the scratch. As the coin wears, the raised metal will blend with the adjacent surfaces and eventually appear to be a die break. I have examined this phenomenon many times. Could be a lamination though, as @1TwoBits opined.

Another important factor to consider here is that 1805 B-2 is known for a retained cud in the area of stars 10 through 13. This happens in the latest die states. So, for your coin to have a die break as shown, it would have had to occurred
before the retained cud develops. Just not possible considering all of the evidence.

1TwoBits

Well said @numisma. A die break like this isn't mentioned in any of the new or old early quarter reference books, but that isn't to say new things can't be discovered. For this example, it would be odd for a die break like that to disappear from all other examples of the variety while the retained cud is forming at stars 10-13.

It's worth mentioning that the 1807 B-1 has an example with multiple light obverse die cracks that were then lapped off before the striking of the die marriage resumed. This 1805 B-2 doesn't seem like a candidate for something like that for the reasons @Numisma and I mention.

1TwoBits

jesbroken

@yosclimber said:

@Walkerguy21D said:

@jesbroken said:
What is a good CBQ variety designation book for the series.
Jim

Is there anything newer than Browning’s book? Not sure, but that was the old bible.

Yes, there are 2 fairly new books:
1. Tompkins (2008)
https://www.amazon.com/Early-United-States-Quarters-1796-1838/dp/B00CLHGV9Y
https://www.wizardcoinsupply.com/early-united-states-quarters-1796-1838.html
2. Rea/Peterson/Karoleff/Kovach (2010)
https://www.amazon.com/Quarter-Dollars-United-States-1796-1838/dp/B0097TP68Q

Do any of the newer books have nice photograph of the coins and their particular areas of diagnostics?
Jim

yosclimber

@jesbroken said:

@yosclimber said:

@Walkerguy21D said:

@jesbroken said:
What is a good CBQ variety designation book for the series.
Jim

Is there anything newer than Browning’s book? Not sure, but that was the old bible.

Yes, there are 2 fairly new books:
1. Tompkins (2008)
https://www.amazon.com/Early-United-States-Quarters-1796-1838/dp/B00CLHGV9Y
https://www.wizardcoinsupply.com/early-united-states-quarters-1796-1838.html
2. Rea/Peterson/Karoleff/Kovach (2010)
https://www.amazon.com/Quarter-Dollars-United-States-1796-1838/dp/B0097TP68Q

Do any of the newer books have nice photograph of the coins and their particular areas of diagnostics?

Yes, they do.

1. Description of the Tompkins book at the wizardcoinsupply link I gave:

In this monumental new hardbound work, printed and bound in the US you will find 448 pages covering each year and the known die marriages, along with background of the early mint. Included are quick finding charts and pictorials, as well as, oversized color photos of every die marriage. Along with new rarity ratings and a new condition census, as an added bonus there are in-depth studies on the rare 1823 and 1827 quarters (including pedigrees). The appendices are chock full of interesting information on, among other things, quarter patterns, private re-strikes, error coins, and the mysterious E & L countermarks, along with several useful charts, die re-marriage listings, and much, much more!! Not an update of an older version but a complete new book.

2. Part of the description of the Rea book

All of the photographic work is by Rea, who captured images of many of the finest known examples of Draped Bust and Capped Bust quarter dollars known to exist. Included with the presentation of each set of photographs are quick attribution tips to assist collectors in rapidly identifying the die marriage of their quarter dollars.

The individual attribution guides with thumbnail illustrations are accompanied by detailed obverse and reverse die diagnostics. The die marriages are listed by the Browning attribution numbering system. The authors of the new reference have also included historical vignettes of national and international importance to put the issuance of the coins into perspective.

Each die variety includes full obverse and reverse images, images of die states and rarity comments.

from
https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/early-quarters-book-first-on-topic-since-1925.html
(Note: the article title is not accurate because apparently the reviewer or person who chose the article title was not aware that the Tompkins book was published 2 years prior, in 2008).

Flatwoods

Nice coin.
From the pics it actually looks like PMD to me. But I don't have the coin.
Interesting either way!

numisma

I will second what @yosclimber stated about the two relatively new Bust quarter books. Both references have wonderful photos and what must be the most comprehensive research on this series ever attempted and completed. At this time, I think that we can safely say that these two books together are timeless. Can't imagine future updates to either reference, since they are so well done and the chances of a new variety appearing are slim to none. I guess it could happen, but ...

That being said, I believe that the Rory Rea reference was produced with the initial goal of providing high quality photographs of some of the best examples of each variety. I especially love my copy of this book, since I am fortunate enough to own a deluxe black leather bound edition with marbled endsheets. It is my favorite book out of my entire library at this time. Heck, I am afraid to even use it! Now that I think about it, I should buy a working copy soon.

jesbroken

Thanks fellows. I should have read the Wiz's description and I wouldn't have needed to bother you guys.
Jim

bustie

@numisma said:
I will second what @yosclimber stated about the two relatively new Bust quarter books. Both references have wonderful photos and what must be the most comprehensive research on this series ever attempted and completed. At this time, I think that we can safely say that these two books together are timeless. Can't imagine future updates to either reference, since they are so well done and the chances of a new variety appearing are slim to none. I guess it could happen, but ...

That being said, I believe that the Rory Rea reference was produced with the initial goal of providing high quality photographs of some of the best examples of each variety. I especially love my copy of this book, since I am fortunate enough to own a deluxe black leather bound edition with marbled endsheets. It is my favorite book out of my entire library at this time. Heck, I am afraid to even use it! Now that I think about it, I should buy a working copy soon.

Like the 1822 B-3!