Fascinating stories, Goldenage. I like this level of detail about where cards come from. I think the provenance of cards matters to me just as much as the grade assigned.
When collecting the 68 puck stickers set I've noticed that there are many in PSA holders that have uneven toning and foxing. These also seem to be from vending, with no surface dents from the pack production line. I wonder if many of those are from your friends collection.
The Orr in the 68 puck stickers is a tough one and will only get tougher. Here's my set...
Guys like Bill, and Aarons on eBay and a guy from Chicago where the fire was and the water damaged a lot of his cards were the three big hockey buyers from Gelman.
Fritsch ordered only Topps hockey I believe from Gelman.
Gelman rented a room and these guys waited their turn to enter. You’ve all heard how Mr. Mint came across those mint 52 high numbers in Massachusetts’s ? That’s how Gelman worked. Case upon cases of cards starting in 1952 when he and Sy Berger started the company he would offer for sale.
Bill would enter his room and there would be stacks of Namath rookies one year. Seaver and Ryan rookies by the hundreds. All the hockey, football, baseball and basketball you could afford.
Gelman was cutting the 70 and 71 opc high series hockey in the US to sell to dealers here. That’s why many of them have the sharp cut. He used the light back paper in 1973 to print and cut the entire set here.
1973 opc was his final year of cutting and selling vending cases in the states because no one was buying it anymore and it wasn’t worth his time. That’s why you don’t see many razor sharp cards from 74-75 opc like you do with 73-74 opc and 70, 71, and 69 high series.
Until 1985 hit and I’d be over Bills house and tell him I’m going to Boston to see my friend Ted Woo. I need some 69 opc Derek Sanderson.
Bill would go to his filing cabinet and get me 25 mint ones. I’d say omg. He said you need more we can go to the vending cases downstairs. Bill, you got 70 opc Sanderson ? Outcomes another 25 more.
I submitted 35 1973 opc Bobby Orr light backs from Gelmans vending cases when PSA first started. 33 came back PSA 8 because of centering issues from vending and they awarded two nines for some reason.
Bill would say to me that I shouldn’t flood the market with so much of his stuff, but these things really started to sell easily because Bill had such great stuff like Nathaniel’s PSA 8 1968 opcBobby Orr.
@Frozencaribou said:
Fascinating stories, Goldenage. I like this level of detail about where cards come from. I think the provenance of cards matters to me just as much as the grade assigned.
When collecting the 68 puck stickers set I've noticed that there are many in PSA holders that have uneven toning and foxing. These also seem to be from vending, with no surface dents from the pack production line. I wonder if many of those are from your friends collection.
The Orr in the 68 puck stickers is a tough one and will only get tougher. Here's my set...
Yes, but also consider that there are 2-3 thousand out there that could be restored possibly with todays methods. There are about 100-200 Bobby Orrs and others that “could” fall into the hands of a restorer, but if not, then you are spot on.
Guys like Bill, and Aarons on eBay and a guy from Chicago where the fire was and the water damaged a lot of his cards were the three big hockey buyers from Gelman.
Fritsch ordered only Topps hockey I believe from Gelman.
Gelman rented a room and these guys waited their turn to enter. You’ve all heard how Mr. Mint came across those mint 52 high numbers in Massachusetts’s ? That’s how Gelman worked. Case upon cases of cards starting in 1952 when he and Sy Berger started the company he would offer for sale.
Bill would enter his room and there would be stacks of Namath rookies one year. Seaver and Ryan rookies by the hundreds. All the hockey, football, baseball and basketball you could afford.
Gelman was cutting the 70 and 71 opc high series hockey in the US to sell to dealers here. That’s why many of them have the sharp cut. He used the light back paper in 1973 to print and cut the entire set here.
1973 opc was his final year of cutting and selling vending cases in the states because no one was buying it anymore and it wasn’t worth his time. That’s why you don’t see many razor sharp cards from 74-75 opc like you do with 73-74 opc and 70, 71, and 69 high series.
Until 1985 hit and I’d be over Bills house and tell him I’m going to Boston to see my friend Ted Woo. I need some 69 opc Derek Sanderson.
Bill would go to his filing cabinet and get me 25 mint ones. I’d say omg. He said you need more we can go to the vending cases downstairs. Bill, you got 70 opc Sanderson ? Outcomes another 25 more.
I submitted 35 1973 opc Bobby Orr light backs from Gelmans vending cases when PSA first started. 33 came back PSA 8 because of centering issues from vending and they awarded two nines for some reason.
Bill would say to me that I shouldn’t flood the market with so much of his stuff, but these things really started to sell easily because Bill had such great stuff like Nathaniel’s PSA 8 1968 opcBobby Orr.
I kept going back to Ocean city time after time.
As an OPC collector myself, These stories are awesome! Keep them coming.
@dtmodel said:
Ted Woo...now thats a name I haven't heard in 15+ years...he had some great stuff
That’s the last time he called me from Arizona where he, his wife Sherry and son Alex moved to after he retired from US Customs in Boston . Remember those amazing Ice Kings in Nm-mt he came across ? Many PSA 7s and 8s are from him. He got a lot of nice cards into collectors hands.
A greedy person could be jealous of Ted because of all the great stuff he had. Those of us who just enjoyed the hobby loved him. After the BC High show Ted would take a few of us to his favorite Chinese restaurant and he would pick up the tab. We would talk for hours some times on the phone. Loved that guy. He was a genuine guy who would never take advantage of you. He spoke openly and honestly.
Guys like Bill, and Aarons on eBay and a guy from Chicago where the fire was and the water damaged a lot of his cards were the three big hockey buyers from Gelman.
Fritsch ordered only Topps hockey I believe from Gelman.
Gelman rented a room and these guys waited their turn to enter. You’ve all heard how Mr. Mint came across those mint 52 high numbers in Massachusetts’s ? That’s how Gelman worked. Case upon cases of cards starting in 1952 when he and Sy Berger started the company he would offer for sale.
Bill would enter his room and there would be stacks of Namath rookies one year. Seaver and Ryan rookies by the hundreds. All the hockey, football, baseball and basketball you could afford.
Gelman was cutting the 70 and 71 opc high series hockey in the US to sell to dealers here. That’s why many of them have the sharp cut. He used the light back paper in 1973 to print and cut the entire set here.
1973 opc was his final year of cutting and selling vending cases in the states because no one was buying it anymore and it wasn’t worth his time. That’s why you don’t see many razor sharp cards from 74-75 opc like you do with 73-74 opc and 70, 71, and 69 high series.
Until 1985 hit and I’d be over Bills house and tell him I’m going to Boston to see my friend Ted Woo. I need some 69 opc Derek Sanderson.
Bill would go to his filing cabinet and get me 25 mint ones. I’d say omg. He said you need more we can go to the vending cases downstairs. Bill, you got 70 opc Sanderson ? Outcomes another 25 more.
I submitted 35 1973 opc Bobby Orr light backs from Gelmans vending cases when PSA first started. 33 came back PSA 8 because of centering issues from vending and they awarded two nines for some reason.
Bill would say to me that I shouldn’t flood the market with so much of his stuff, but these things really started to sell easily because Bill had such great stuff like Nathaniel’s PSA 8 1968 opcBobby Orr.
I kept going back to Ocean city time after time.
As an OPC collector myself, These stories are awesome! Keep them coming.
OPC collectors like myself really have to honor Gellman and guys like Bill for all the wonderful opc cards they bought and kept for future generations.
Think of how rare and tough the 1967 General Mills Bobby Orr is to get. Think of how tough the 71 bazooka is. In 1967 the population of Canada was similar to the total population of New York.
If the opc vault didn’t keep those sheets, and if guys like Bill and others didn’t order from Gelman, then the difficulty of finding high grade opc cards from 1968-1979 would be extremely high.
Again, think of how hard it is to find bazooka and GM cards. That’s very similar to what finding old opc in high grade would be like today. Although more kids collected opc then they did bazooka.
I wish I knew the park hurst history but I do not. Good stuff to pass down to future generations of collectors. There was a vending case find of 62 parkies years ago, so the park hurst company may have had more of an entrepreneurial spirit then opc did. Opc was just trying to sell gum and did not have a guy like Gelman in their ranks. As we all know the one great thing opc did do was allow employees to have sheets of cards. That helped the high grade enthusiasts a lot years later. I think it’s believed that over 100 81 and 80 opc sheets are still out there, or were and were cut.
Love the stories. Personally I find it discouraging to know how many high grade cards have been slabbed. For 30-40 years guys have been working cards.
It’s the reason I collect mostly mid grade, financially I can play in the high end hockey spade but how do you know what is actually pack pulled original? Nearly impossible.
@80sOPC said:
Love the stories. Personally I find it discouraging to know how many high grade cards have been slabbed. For 30-40 years guys have been working cards.
It’s the reason I collect mostly mid grade, financially I can play in the high end hockey spade but how do you know what is actually pack pulled original? Nearly impossible.
I used to feel like you too when I was in my 30s. I’m 57 now, and still a purist, but I am glad that the OPC vault sheets from Mastro were preserved, cut, and in PSA holders. I can afford them, but would never buy them, but am happy for those who like them.
They came from the opc company and we’re printed years ago.
I am a total purist. My cards need to be from packs or vending.
But I’ve bought and sold the others, hoping others would enjoy them as long as they know what they’re getting, and many of them don’t care, as long as it says PSA 9 or 10.
I feel both sides can co-exist, as long as honesty and truth guides us.
The other reality we face is that we just don’t know sometimes.
Geordie Howe told me years ago that a guy gave him a 51 parkhurst sheet in exchange for him doing his golf tournament. When Geordie passed we can be sure that someone cut that sheet up.
On top of that many 51 Parkies are oversized and undersized. What do we think the chances are of the oversized ones cut to size and in 8 and 9 holders?
Like you said, mid grade or 7s are always best for the purist, unless you’re absolutely sure where it came from.
Good perspective, and I am with you in that I don’t care what others covet, to each his own. Unfortunately I don’t have the background in the hobby you do, so easiest way for me to stay a purist is don’t play at all.
One of my favorite Orr cards.
Love the color combo of the card design and the Bruins uniforms, and Cheevers and his mask in background.
Nice centering on this one, but there is a slight crease/bend on the bottom right corner (not visible on this old scan).
Bought it over 15 years ago at a very good price, probably do to it being a KSA.
@clarke442 said:
One of my favorite Orr cards.
Love the color combo of the card design and the Bruins uniforms, and Cheevers and his mask in background.
Nice centering on this one, but there is a slight crease/bend on the bottom right corner (not visible on this old scan).
Bought it over 15 years ago at a very good price, probably do to it being a KSA.
One of my top five favorites as well. Loved the way Cheevers roamed way out of his net. Was a joy to watch. Great card.
This card below was always a bear to find centered. Would love to see others if anyone has pics. Vending cards of Orr in the high series were never 50/50. The only way to get dead centered ones was from wax. If you ever see this card or any other high series Orr card from 1970 opc with a razor cut and 50/50, then it wasn’t cut in 1970.
Mine below is a wax pack find. Again, would love to see pics if you have any others with 50/50 to 60/40 centering. Thanks.
Goldenage, the stories about Gelman explain the 68 to 71 offerings of Topps and OPC by Wholesale Cards in the early to mid 70's. Later, I may try to post a picture of his catalogue.
@georgebailey2 said:
Goldenage, the stories about Gelman explain the 68 to 71 offerings of Topps and OPC by Wholesale Cards in the early to mid 70's. Later, I may try to post a picture of his catalogue.
And forgive me, who is Bill? Mastro?
Yes indeed. Everything came through Gellman to local dealers.
Not Mastro. The catalogue pic would be a fantastic addition to all of us here.
This Bill lived in Ocean City and owned a beach front hotel before retiring to Kenneth Square PA.
He is 85 now.
Yes indeed. Everything came through Gellman to local dealers.
Not Mastro. The catalogue pic would be a fantastic addition to all of us here.
This Bill lived in Ocean City and owned a beach front hotel before retiring to Kenneth Square PA.
He is 85 now.
The prices will make your head spin. 71-72 series 1 $3.95, series 2 $3.95. Both series $6.95. I will take a picture and upload tonight.
Lived in Ocean City and retired to Kenneth Square? I would think it should be the other way around.
Loved Ocean City as a kid. Bought plenty (for a 9 year old) of 73 rack packs at the penny candy store at the north end of the boardwalk that summer. Those high numbers, including Schmidt, are still part of my set.
Thank you. This perfectly aligns with what Bill told me.
He said they made sets of 69-70 and 70-71 using low series Topps and high series OPC.
Back in 1989 after learning this from him I knew that 68 opc would have many high grade cards because American dealers were buying full vending from Gellman.
I also knew that 69-70 and 70-71 opc low series was going to be a bear to find in high grade.
I remember Leland’s auctioning off a complete 69-70 opc hockey set around 1995. I won it and got the first George Ferguson PSA 9 ever from the low series. The low series cards were that tough to get 9s. Years later the OPC vault sheets were sold through Mastro and I knew more were coming.
I’ve learned something new with your picture. Bill only had 68 opc puck stickers. About 2-3 thousand of them. He did not have the 69-70 opc four in ones. So he simply did not buy them. I wonder if any other dealers did. Never saw or heard of them existing in bulk.
The ad says the cards were printed in Canada which is correct. The vending cases even have the OPC label on them as I saw when I picked from them. There are only two ways to explain the sharp cuts on many of the 68-70 opc cards from vending. Either OPC London Ontario used a different cutting and packaging service other than their own to cut, box, and ship the cards, or they trucked the printed card sheets and flat vending cases to Gellman in NY. I would think Gellman would want to save money and not pay OPC employees to cut them and had them shipped to him so he could do a little side hustle knowing the extra money he could make, but that is just my guess, and not fact.
The tall boys Bill had from Gellman all had the rough OPC cut. So perhaps in 64 Gellman was buying printed and cut cards from Canada, but by 68 he decided he could make more money doing it himself, or he wasn’t happy with OPCs poor centering problems and “ugly” edges and his dealers complained enough to make him produce a better product.
Only Woody Gellman knows this and I unfortunately never got the chance to ask him.
Thanks for sharing and I saved that ad to my phone, and yes, where is the DeLorean and Michael J Fox when you need him.
The other Gellman mystery that remains that neither I or anyone else over the years knows, I even spoke to Mike and Brian at length about this, is the 1973 opc hockey mystery.
We all know that Gellman sold the sharp cut light backs here in the USA
We all know that the rough cut dark backs were only distributed through wax packs in Canada.
The question is, where in Gods creation did this never seen before bright paper come from that Gellman used to produce his 1973 opc hockey vending cases ?
There could be an easy answer, but I’m not sure it’s right. OPC printed the cards but ran out of the dark back 1973 opc hockey paper they had in stock. So they used 1972 opc baseball paper to print the cards, shipped the sheets to Gellman in NY to have them cut there. The cards in PSA 8 and 9 holders today with the sharp edges and light backs are so bright on the backs simply because they were kept from the light all those years, tucked away in vending cases, and did not darken.
Which is why by the way I choose to keep pictures of my cards on my phone, and keep all my cards in sealed boxes, only taking them out when I choose to see them. It protects the autograph and the original card color for future generations from any light fading the card and autograph.
I would welcome any information, thoughts, or ideas to this mystery, and I wish Woody were still here. I would order him his favorite steak dinner and beverage and chat for hours.
Yes indeed. Everything came through Gellman to local dealers.
Not Mastro. The catalogue pic would be a fantastic addition to all of us here.
This Bill lived in Ocean City and owned a beach front hotel before retiring to Kenneth Square PA.
He is 85 now.
The prices will make your head spin. 71-72 series 1 $3.95, series 2 $3.95. Both series $6.95. I will take a picture and upload tonight.
Lived in Ocean City and retired to Kenneth Square? I would think it should be the other way around.
Loved Ocean City as a kid. Bought plenty (for a 9 year old) of 73 rack packs at the penny candy store at the north end of the boardwalk that summer. Those high numbers, including Schmidt, are still part of my set.
Love hearing people who have their original cards. There’s nothing more pure in the hobby than that.
@Goldenage said:
The other Gellman mystery that remains that neither I or anyone else over the years knows, I even spoke to Mike and Brian at length about this, is the 1973 opc hockey mystery.
We all know that Gellman sold the sharp cut light backs here in the USA
We all know that the rough cut dark backs were only distributed through wax packs in Canada.
The question is, where in Gods creation did this never seen before bright paper come from that Gellman used to produce his 1973 opc hockey vending cases ?
There could be an easy answer, but I’m not sure it’s right. OPC printed the cards but ran out of the dark back 1973 opc hockey paper they had in stock. So they used 1972 opc baseball paper to print the cards, shipped the sheets to Gellman in NY to have them cut there. The cards in PSA 8 and 9 holders today with the sharp edges and light backs are so bright on the backs simply because they were kept from the light all those years, tucked away in vending cases, and did not darken.
First off, wow, what great hockey card knowledge that was waiting to be shared on this forum! I didn't connect the dots on the reason why a set such as 1969-70 OPC only had series 2 vending. It is a revelation, but rather obvious, that dealers would pair the smaller Topps set with the second series OPC cards. I haven't ever seen sets sold like that in my collecting experience, which started in earnest in 1988, but perhaps that practice didn't catch on.
Second, I have some rough cut light back 1973-74 OPC cards, so the light back stock was not exclusive to US vending. Considering the time period and the relatively small facilities, I'd speculate the light paper stock from 1972 OPC baseball and 1973 OPC hockey comes from the same batch.
I am fortunate to have purchased a mint 1973-74 OPC vending light back set a number of years ago. It is interesting, as you have mentioned, Goldenage, how uniform the centering is on those cards. Also interesting that for whatever reason the Darryl Sittler is always cut thinner than the other cards.
Keep the Orr cards coming and the vintage hockey stories flowing. This is the best thread in a long time for me as a hockey collector.
@Bosox1976 said:
As a Boston kid growing up in the 70's, I only collected Topps hockey - but I am enjoying this thread immensely - thanks for the wonderful sharing.
The feeling is mutual as stated above.
Boston is crazy for Orr. Crazy meaning that at the BC High show a good 25 years ago Ted Woo had his usual six tables, and I had one small one right next to him. Like to travel light and just bring some nice Boston stuff, along with sets and key rookies. Anyway I bring just the glass of my Bobby Orr pinball machine just for show. A guy offers me twice of what I paid for it, plus two perfect 1972 opc 3rd series packs which were impossible back then, AND he offers to drive south 5 hours to get it. The Monday after the show he’s at my house (took off work), loads it and drives back to Boston the same day.
David Hughes was kind enough to sell me a mint signed Pelle Lindbergh rookie at that same show.
Next time I visited Bill it was a joy to just hand it to him. He was a big Flyers fan, season ticket holder, which is why he bought so much product in 1968-73. He wanted many of those cards for his own autograph collection.
@Goldenage said:
The other Gellman mystery that remains that neither I or anyone else over the years knows, I even spoke to Mike and Brian at length about this, is the 1973 opc hockey mystery.
We all know that Gellman sold the sharp cut light backs here in the USA
We all know that the rough cut dark backs were only distributed through wax packs in Canada.
The question is, where in Gods creation did this never seen before bright paper come from that Gellman used to produce his 1973 opc hockey vending cases ?
There could be an easy answer, but I’m not sure it’s right. OPC printed the cards but ran out of the dark back 1973 opc hockey paper they had in stock. So they used 1972 opc baseball paper to print the cards, shipped the sheets to Gellman in NY to have them cut there. The cards in PSA 8 and 9 holders today with the sharp edges and light backs are so bright on the backs simply because they were kept from the light all those years, tucked away in vending cases, and did not darken.
First off, wow, what great hockey card knowledge that was waiting to be shared on this forum! I didn't connect the dots on the reason why a set such as 1969-70 OPC only had series 2 vending. It is a revelation, but rather obvious, that dealers would pair the smaller Topps set with the second series OPC cards. I haven't ever seen sets sold like that in my collecting experience, which started in earnest in 1988, but perhaps that practice didn't catch on.
Second, I have some rough cut light back 1973-74 OPC cards, so the light back stock was not exclusive to US vending. Considering the time period and the relatively small facilities, I'd speculate the light paper stock from 1972 OPC baseball and 1973 OPC hockey comes from the same batch.
I am fortunate to have purchased a mint 1973-74 OPC vending light back set a number of years ago. It is interesting, as you have mentioned, Goldenage, how uniform the centering is on those cards. Also interesting that for whatever reason the Darryl Sittler is always cut thinner than the other cards.
Keep the Orr cards coming and the vintage hockey stories flowing. This is the best thread in a long time for me as a hockey collector.
-Nathanael
Nathaniel.
Do you recall if your 73 light back rough cuts were acquired before or after the Mastro OPC vault sale ?
Does anyone know if this sale is legit ? If so, it’s a huge jump for this card.
One of the most beautiful Orr cards for my money with the more rare black bottom print variation.
Love seeing the old collector publications. Here's one I have from 1987. Boy to go back just for a little while seeing the prices. It's a Baseball guide but worth posting.
Wanted to post a pic of one of my 67 Orr’s to mention a few things that most know but some may not.
First thing is just like his rookie, there are counterfeits on eBay and elsewhere. Be careful when buying raw.
Second is at least half came out of the factory with a printers line down the middle back of the card. It’s not a crease as it does not show on the front. So when buying raw, hold the back of the card up to see if that annoying visible printers line/indentation is there.
Here’s a picture of my card to go on to the last two points.
The card itself inside a PSA holder should at least touch both side barriers of the holder and touch the top and bottom barriers inside the holder. There are cards out there in PSA holders that do not do this. The grader must have felt it was undersized, which is fine, but you are taking the risk of perhaps, and I say perhaps, buying a trimmed card.
There is tons of trimming and restoration in our hobby, along with plenty of guys with integrity and honesty.
Second point is the purple or lavender background. I always want, and it’s just me and a few others, who do not want any white specs or the white hickey near Bobby’s left knee. We feel it’s a printing failure of opc, just like the line on the back. Tony Esposito rookies have the same issue. Many have red specs all over the front of the card. Some do not.
That’s a personal preference and not something that is widespread.
On the former vintage hockey forum led by Bobby B who is a wonderful contributor to our hobby, there was great discussion about a PSA 8 Bobby Orr #92 from 1967 that was rather short inside the holder. I miss that place, as it was a great place to share opinions and discuss what is truth and what is fiction.
PSA does allow in their guidelines for a card to be 1/16th short which is very fair and reasonable because some cards did come short and some came a little long. However we all know that many PSA 7s can turn into PSA 9s with a 1/16th cut by unscrupulous hobbyists.
Therefore I always want my cards to perfectly fit inside the holder. Just like the card pictures above. The only risk involved with this one is that it was once oversized and cut to fit in the holder. Chances of that are very small, but if that happened then it happened and I never found out about it.
@erba said:
I enjoy multi signed and oddball cards. Here’s what I have with Orr.
This is a playing card. I don’t think I’ve seen another one that’s signed. It’s currently at PSA.
This is fantastic. Thanks for sharing. May I ask how you obtained those awesome cards ?
Thanks!
Lots of mailing cards out for signings. I usually wait until all I need is Orr and send them to him through his site. The business card was a purchase through his site and then I sent it off to PSA.
@dtmodel said:
Ted Woo...now thats a name I haven't heard in 15+ years...he had some great stuff
Remember Ted with the long pony tail when he was in his 30s ?
Well here he is right before he retired. I will leave this pic up for a few days. Then I will take it down and replace it with a few of my Orr cards.
Ha, that picture of Ted brings back many fond memories. The Ted I knew had the long pony tail but I do recall many years later his picture being in the newspaper(?) for some work related event and he had the buzz cut.
The BC High show was only an hour+ from my house and I would go all the time. It was always a great show as Ted had great inventory. I would stand in front of his table for at least an hour+ looking at his cards - like a kid on Christmas morning! He must have thought I was a real nut case...
Fond memories for me as well. I always had a small table aside Ted so I’m sure I saw you as he and I always worked together along with his cousin Brian.
BC High show had autographs for $5 to $10 each year for guys like Rocket Richard, Beliveau, Bourque, Leetch, and Patrick Roy one year. I do remember Bill Russell making his first ever autograph appearance ever and the fee was $495 per auto.
Most of my cards in my PC came from Ted and when I eventually got them graded years later, the grades were very high and there never was any issue with trimming, recoloring etc - Ted was as honest and knowlegable as anyone I had ever met in the hobby over my 35 years.
Ah those autograph prices...I really loaded up with on card autos. $8 for Howe, Richard etc. It really was just a great show and something I looked forward to. Today, my graded cards have long since been sold to put my children thru college but I still have every autograph that I got at those shows and they remain my favorites
In reference to some of the minor printing flaws I mentioned when showing my 1967 PSA 8.5 card, there are three types of Tony Esposito rookies. I looked at a lot of them in my time with all Bills vending.
There’s the ones with all the red specs. No pic.
There’s mustard face Tony with a yellow print on both sides of his mouth.
Then there’s the PSA 10 that has beautiful print qualities to it.
Also pictured is a 67 Bobby Orr with the hickey near his left knee, along with all that white showing through the lavender near his right shoulder.
It’s not the holder as some or many have this issue with card #92.
Comments
More stories please sir
Fascinating stories, Goldenage. I like this level of detail about where cards come from. I think the provenance of cards matters to me just as much as the grade assigned.
When collecting the 68 puck stickers set I've noticed that there are many in PSA holders that have uneven toning and foxing. These also seem to be from vending, with no surface dents from the pack production line. I wonder if many of those are from your friends collection.
The Orr in the 68 puck stickers is a tough one and will only get tougher. Here's my set...
https://psacard.com/psasetregistry/hockey/company-sets/1968-69-o-pee-chee-puck-stickers/publishedset/49866
Google Woody Gelman Topps.
Guys like Bill, and Aarons on eBay and a guy from Chicago where the fire was and the water damaged a lot of his cards were the three big hockey buyers from Gelman.
Fritsch ordered only Topps hockey I believe from Gelman.
Gelman rented a room and these guys waited their turn to enter. You’ve all heard how Mr. Mint came across those mint 52 high numbers in Massachusetts’s ? That’s how Gelman worked. Case upon cases of cards starting in 1952 when he and Sy Berger started the company he would offer for sale.
Bill would enter his room and there would be stacks of Namath rookies one year. Seaver and Ryan rookies by the hundreds. All the hockey, football, baseball and basketball you could afford.
Gelman was cutting the 70 and 71 opc high series hockey in the US to sell to dealers here. That’s why many of them have the sharp cut. He used the light back paper in 1973 to print and cut the entire set here.
1973 opc was his final year of cutting and selling vending cases in the states because no one was buying it anymore and it wasn’t worth his time. That’s why you don’t see many razor sharp cards from 74-75 opc like you do with 73-74 opc and 70, 71, and 69 high series.
Until 1985 hit and I’d be over Bills house and tell him I’m going to Boston to see my friend Ted Woo. I need some 69 opc Derek Sanderson.
Bill would go to his filing cabinet and get me 25 mint ones. I’d say omg. He said you need more we can go to the vending cases downstairs. Bill, you got 70 opc Sanderson ? Outcomes another 25 more.
I submitted 35 1973 opc Bobby Orr light backs from Gelmans vending cases when PSA first started. 33 came back PSA 8 because of centering issues from vending and they awarded two nines for some reason.
Bill would say to me that I shouldn’t flood the market with so much of his stuff, but these things really started to sell easily because Bill had such great stuff like Nathaniel’s PSA 8 1968 opcBobby Orr.
I kept going back to Ocean city time after time.
Yes, but also consider that there are 2-3 thousand out there that could be restored possibly with todays methods. There are about 100-200 Bobby Orrs and others that “could” fall into the hands of a restorer, but if not, then you are spot on.
As an OPC collector myself, These stories are awesome! Keep them coming.
Stacks of Namath rookies…….Wow!
Ted Woo...now thats a name I haven't heard in 15+ years...he had some great stuff
That’s the last time he called me from Arizona where he, his wife Sherry and son Alex moved to after he retired from US Customs in Boston . Remember those amazing Ice Kings in Nm-mt he came across ? Many PSA 7s and 8s are from him. He got a lot of nice cards into collectors hands.
A greedy person could be jealous of Ted because of all the great stuff he had. Those of us who just enjoyed the hobby loved him. After the BC High show Ted would take a few of us to his favorite Chinese restaurant and he would pick up the tab. We would talk for hours some times on the phone. Loved that guy. He was a genuine guy who would never take advantage of you. He spoke openly and honestly.
OPC collectors like myself really have to honor Gellman and guys like Bill for all the wonderful opc cards they bought and kept for future generations.
Think of how rare and tough the 1967 General Mills Bobby Orr is to get. Think of how tough the 71 bazooka is. In 1967 the population of Canada was similar to the total population of New York.
If the opc vault didn’t keep those sheets, and if guys like Bill and others didn’t order from Gelman, then the difficulty of finding high grade opc cards from 1968-1979 would be extremely high.
Again, think of how hard it is to find bazooka and GM cards. That’s very similar to what finding old opc in high grade would be like today. Although more kids collected opc then they did bazooka.
I wish I knew the park hurst history but I do not. Good stuff to pass down to future generations of collectors. There was a vending case find of 62 parkies years ago, so the park hurst company may have had more of an entrepreneurial spirit then opc did. Opc was just trying to sell gum and did not have a guy like Gelman in their ranks. As we all know the one great thing opc did do was allow employees to have sheets of cards. That helped the high grade enthusiasts a lot years later. I think it’s believed that over 100 81 and 80 opc sheets are still out there, or were and were cut.
Love the stories. Personally I find it discouraging to know how many high grade cards have been slabbed. For 30-40 years guys have been working cards.
It’s the reason I collect mostly mid grade, financially I can play in the high end hockey spade but how do you know what is actually pack pulled original? Nearly impossible.
I used to feel like you too when I was in my 30s. I’m 57 now, and still a purist, but I am glad that the OPC vault sheets from Mastro were preserved, cut, and in PSA holders. I can afford them, but would never buy them, but am happy for those who like them.
They came from the opc company and we’re printed years ago.
I am a total purist. My cards need to be from packs or vending.
But I’ve bought and sold the others, hoping others would enjoy them as long as they know what they’re getting, and many of them don’t care, as long as it says PSA 9 or 10.
I feel both sides can co-exist, as long as honesty and truth guides us.
The other reality we face is that we just don’t know sometimes.
Geordie Howe told me years ago that a guy gave him a 51 parkhurst sheet in exchange for him doing his golf tournament. When Geordie passed we can be sure that someone cut that sheet up.
On top of that many 51 Parkies are oversized and undersized. What do we think the chances are of the oversized ones cut to size and in 8 and 9 holders?
Like you said, mid grade or 7s are always best for the purist, unless you’re absolutely sure where it came from.
Good perspective, and I am with you in that I don’t care what others covet, to each his own. Unfortunately I don’t have the background in the hobby you do, so easiest way for me to stay a purist is don’t play at all.
Great thread, what an amazing hobby.
One of my favorite Orr cards.
Love the color combo of the card design and the Bruins uniforms, and Cheevers and his mask in background.
Nice centering on this one, but there is a slight crease/bend on the bottom right corner (not visible on this old scan).
Bought it over 15 years ago at a very good price, probably do to it being a KSA.
One of my top five favorites as well. Loved the way Cheevers roamed way out of his net. Was a joy to watch. Great card.
This card below was always a bear to find centered. Would love to see others if anyone has pics. Vending cards of Orr in the high series were never 50/50. The only way to get dead centered ones was from wax. If you ever see this card or any other high series Orr card from 1970 opc with a razor cut and 50/50, then it wasn’t cut in 1970.
Mine below is a wax pack find. Again, would love to see pics if you have any others with 50/50 to 60/40 centering. Thanks.
Goldenage, the stories about Gelman explain the 68 to 71 offerings of Topps and OPC by Wholesale Cards in the early to mid 70's. Later, I may try to post a picture of his catalogue.
And forgive me, who is Bill? Mastro?
Yes indeed. Everything came through Gellman to local dealers.
Not Mastro. The catalogue pic would be a fantastic addition to all of us here.
This Bill lived in Ocean City and owned a beach front hotel before retiring to Kenneth Square PA.
He is 85 now.
The prices will make your head spin. 71-72 series 1 $3.95, series 2 $3.95. Both series $6.95. I will take a picture and upload tonight.
Lived in Ocean City and retired to Kenneth Square? I would think it should be the other way around.
Loved Ocean City as a kid. Bought plenty (for a 9 year old) of 73 rack packs at the penny candy store at the north end of the boardwalk that summer. Those high numbers, including Schmidt, are still part of my set.
I need a time machine please!
Thank you. This perfectly aligns with what Bill told me.
He said they made sets of 69-70 and 70-71 using low series Topps and high series OPC.
Back in 1989 after learning this from him I knew that 68 opc would have many high grade cards because American dealers were buying full vending from Gellman.
I also knew that 69-70 and 70-71 opc low series was going to be a bear to find in high grade.
I remember Leland’s auctioning off a complete 69-70 opc hockey set around 1995. I won it and got the first George Ferguson PSA 9 ever from the low series. The low series cards were that tough to get 9s. Years later the OPC vault sheets were sold through Mastro and I knew more were coming.
I’ve learned something new with your picture. Bill only had 68 opc puck stickers. About 2-3 thousand of them. He did not have the 69-70 opc four in ones. So he simply did not buy them. I wonder if any other dealers did. Never saw or heard of them existing in bulk.
The ad says the cards were printed in Canada which is correct. The vending cases even have the OPC label on them as I saw when I picked from them. There are only two ways to explain the sharp cuts on many of the 68-70 opc cards from vending. Either OPC London Ontario used a different cutting and packaging service other than their own to cut, box, and ship the cards, or they trucked the printed card sheets and flat vending cases to Gellman in NY. I would think Gellman would want to save money and not pay OPC employees to cut them and had them shipped to him so he could do a little side hustle knowing the extra money he could make, but that is just my guess, and not fact.
The tall boys Bill had from Gellman all had the rough OPC cut. So perhaps in 64 Gellman was buying printed and cut cards from Canada, but by 68 he decided he could make more money doing it himself, or he wasn’t happy with OPCs poor centering problems and “ugly” edges and his dealers complained enough to make him produce a better product.
Only Woody Gellman knows this and I unfortunately never got the chance to ask him.
Thanks for sharing and I saved that ad to my phone, and yes, where is the DeLorean and Michael J Fox when you need him.
The other Gellman mystery that remains that neither I or anyone else over the years knows, I even spoke to Mike and Brian at length about this, is the 1973 opc hockey mystery.
We all know that Gellman sold the sharp cut light backs here in the USA
We all know that the rough cut dark backs were only distributed through wax packs in Canada.
The question is, where in Gods creation did this never seen before bright paper come from that Gellman used to produce his 1973 opc hockey vending cases ?
There could be an easy answer, but I’m not sure it’s right. OPC printed the cards but ran out of the dark back 1973 opc hockey paper they had in stock. So they used 1972 opc baseball paper to print the cards, shipped the sheets to Gellman in NY to have them cut there. The cards in PSA 8 and 9 holders today with the sharp edges and light backs are so bright on the backs simply because they were kept from the light all those years, tucked away in vending cases, and did not darken.
Which is why by the way I choose to keep pictures of my cards on my phone, and keep all my cards in sealed boxes, only taking them out when I choose to see them. It protects the autograph and the original card color for future generations from any light fading the card and autograph.
I would welcome any information, thoughts, or ideas to this mystery, and I wish Woody were still here. I would order him his favorite steak dinner and beverage and chat for hours.
Love hearing people who have their original cards. There’s nothing more pure in the hobby than that.
This is an epic learning thread. Great knowledge being shared. Thanks for sharing.
As a Boston kid growing up in the 70's, I only collected Topps hockey - but I am enjoying this thread immensely - thanks for the wonderful sharing.
Bosox1976
Prices not quite the same, but I still have the 80-81 set somewhere.
First off, wow, what great hockey card knowledge that was waiting to be shared on this forum! I didn't connect the dots on the reason why a set such as 1969-70 OPC only had series 2 vending. It is a revelation, but rather obvious, that dealers would pair the smaller Topps set with the second series OPC cards. I haven't ever seen sets sold like that in my collecting experience, which started in earnest in 1988, but perhaps that practice didn't catch on.
Second, I have some rough cut light back 1973-74 OPC cards, so the light back stock was not exclusive to US vending. Considering the time period and the relatively small facilities, I'd speculate the light paper stock from 1972 OPC baseball and 1973 OPC hockey comes from the same batch.
I am fortunate to have purchased a mint 1973-74 OPC vending light back set a number of years ago. It is interesting, as you have mentioned, Goldenage, how uniform the centering is on those cards. Also interesting that for whatever reason the Darryl Sittler is always cut thinner than the other cards.
Keep the Orr cards coming and the vintage hockey stories flowing. This is the best thread in a long time for me as a hockey collector.
-Nathanael
Epic is the perfect word to use recalling the times I spent with Bill. My pleasure passing on his knowledge from me to us.
The feeling is mutual as stated above.
Boston is crazy for Orr. Crazy meaning that at the BC High show a good 25 years ago Ted Woo had his usual six tables, and I had one small one right next to him. Like to travel light and just bring some nice Boston stuff, along with sets and key rookies. Anyway I bring just the glass of my Bobby Orr pinball machine just for show. A guy offers me twice of what I paid for it, plus two perfect 1972 opc 3rd series packs which were impossible back then, AND he offers to drive south 5 hours to get it. The Monday after the show he’s at my house (took off work), loads it and drives back to Boston the same day.
David Hughes was kind enough to sell me a mint signed Pelle Lindbergh rookie at that same show.
Next time I visited Bill it was a joy to just hand it to him. He was a big Flyers fan, season ticket holder, which is why he bought so much product in 1968-73. He wanted many of those cards for his own autograph collection.
Nathaniel.
Do you recall if your 73 light back rough cuts were acquired before or after the Mastro OPC vault sale ?
What’s interesting is the dealers west of Chicago like Burbank and Frisch only dealt in Topps, ordering directly from the company.
Gellman would only sell OPC during his hotel room arrangements with East coast dealers, and that guy from Chicago who would drive out here.
Wonder if this was a side hustle for Gellman and Fritsch and Burbank could never buy opc directly from Topps.
Why would Gellman rent a hotel room with guys waiting their turn to enter card heaven one by one.
Only Woody knows, and I’m just happy he did his little entrepreneurial endeavors. Without them we’d be starving for high grade.
Does anyone know if this sale is legit ? If so, it’s a huge jump for this card.
One of the most beautiful Orr cards for my money with the more rare black bottom print variation.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/154885755837?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=r5wyp5z8R_S&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=l0X1ohu8Sm2&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
Love seeing the old collector publications. Here's one I have from 1987. Boy to go back just for a little while seeing the prices. It's a Baseball guide but worth posting.
Forgot I had this Orr button. Been tucked away for a while.
I enjoy multi signed and oddball cards. Here’s what I have with Orr.
This is a playing card. I don’t think I’ve seen another one that’s signed. It’s currently at PSA.
Wanted to post a pic of one of my 67 Orr’s to mention a few things that most know but some may not.
First thing is just like his rookie, there are counterfeits on eBay and elsewhere. Be careful when buying raw.
Second is at least half came out of the factory with a printers line down the middle back of the card. It’s not a crease as it does not show on the front. So when buying raw, hold the back of the card up to see if that annoying visible printers line/indentation is there.
Here’s a picture of my card to go on to the last two points.
The card itself inside a PSA holder should at least touch both side barriers of the holder and touch the top and bottom barriers inside the holder. There are cards out there in PSA holders that do not do this. The grader must have felt it was undersized, which is fine, but you are taking the risk of perhaps, and I say perhaps, buying a trimmed card.
There is tons of trimming and restoration in our hobby, along with plenty of guys with integrity and honesty.
Second point is the purple or lavender background. I always want, and it’s just me and a few others, who do not want any white specs or the white hickey near Bobby’s left knee. We feel it’s a printing failure of opc, just like the line on the back. Tony Esposito rookies have the same issue. Many have red specs all over the front of the card. Some do not.
That’s a personal preference and not something that is widespread.
On the former vintage hockey forum led by Bobby B who is a wonderful contributor to our hobby, there was great discussion about a PSA 8 Bobby Orr #92 from 1967 that was rather short inside the holder. I miss that place, as it was a great place to share opinions and discuss what is truth and what is fiction.
PSA does allow in their guidelines for a card to be 1/16th short which is very fair and reasonable because some cards did come short and some came a little long. However we all know that many PSA 7s can turn into PSA 9s with a 1/16th cut by unscrupulous hobbyists.
Therefore I always want my cards to perfectly fit inside the holder. Just like the card pictures above. The only risk involved with this one is that it was once oversized and cut to fit in the holder. Chances of that are very small, but if that happened then it happened and I never found out about it.
This is fantastic. Thanks for sharing. May I ask how you obtained those awesome cards ?
Thanks!
Lots of mailing cards out for signings. I usually wait until all I need is Orr and send them to him through his site. The business card was a purchase through his site and then I sent it off to PSA.
Ha, that picture of Ted brings back many fond memories. The Ted I knew had the long pony tail but I do recall many years later his picture being in the newspaper(?) for some work related event and he had the buzz cut.
The BC High show was only an hour+ from my house and I would go all the time. It was always a great show as Ted had great inventory. I would stand in front of his table for at least an hour+ looking at his cards - like a kid on Christmas morning! He must have thought I was a real nut case...
Fond memories for me as well. I always had a small table aside Ted so I’m sure I saw you as he and I always worked together along with his cousin Brian.
BC High show had autographs for $5 to $10 each year for guys like Rocket Richard, Beliveau, Bourque, Leetch, and Patrick Roy one year. I do remember Bill Russell making his first ever autograph appearance ever and the fee was $495 per auto.
Ted was a class act and a benefit to the hobby.
Most of my cards in my PC came from Ted and when I eventually got them graded years later, the grades were very high and there never was any issue with trimming, recoloring etc - Ted was as honest and knowlegable as anyone I had ever met in the hobby over my 35 years.
Ah those autograph prices...I really loaded up with on card autos. $8 for Howe, Richard etc. It really was just a great show and something I looked forward to. Today, my graded cards have long since been sold to put my children thru college but I still have every autograph that I got at those shows and they remain my favorites
In reference to some of the minor printing flaws I mentioned when showing my 1967 PSA 8.5 card, there are three types of Tony Esposito rookies. I looked at a lot of them in my time with all Bills vending.
There’s the ones with all the red specs. No pic.
There’s mustard face Tony with a yellow print on both sides of his mouth.
Then there’s the PSA 10 that has beautiful print qualities to it.
Also pictured is a 67 Bobby Orr with the hickey near his left knee, along with all that white showing through the lavender near his right shoulder.
It’s not the holder as some or many have this issue with card #92.
I remember the old BC High shows, always had tons of Hockey.
I picked up my first graded card at that show.
What’s the patch on the upper arm of the uniform ? Never seen or noticed it before.
Based upon a Google search, it is a 50th anniversary patch for the 73-74 season.
In 2020 PSA 8s were selling for $230.
In 2021 it rose to $400.
The last one in 2021 went for $540.
None auctioned yet this year.
I won this in 2020 from PWCC for $360. The last two eights though not as well centered auctioned at
$620 and $640.
It seems like many of his cards are inching, or leaping higher.
Just arrived. The only graded card from the team issue. Very tough with these oversized issues grading high. Happy to add it to the PC. Enjoy.
