1754 Bavaria Thaler with Angled Date--Variety or Fake?

airplanenut

This 1754 thaler showed up and looks like a KM-501/Dav-1948, except I can only find examples in Krause and online (and not that many, at that) of the type with the date sitting horizontally, whereas on this coin, the digits are angled. Is this an unlisted variety (or one I just missed)? Is it simply not a Bavaria issue and I'm looking in the wrong spot? Is it not authentic, with the date oddly laid out for some reason?

The coin weighs in at 27.6g and has been cleaned.

Here's one of the examples I found with the horizontal date (https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=3641&lot=1392):

Aegis3

Try the Sixbid archives. Looks like Kunker has sold a few of this variety.

airplanenut

@Aegis3 said:
Try the Sixbid archives. Looks like Kunker has sold a few of this variety.

I searched “1754 Bavaria Thaler” and of the 11 results, 4 are the same general design, but all have the horizontal date which matches the Krause photo.

amwldcoin

I don't see anything ringing alarm bells in my head.

coinkat

@airplanenut

I see it as being KM224- I write this mainly based upon the portrait and that the reverse is more alike based on the top of the crown in the picture in Krause. I checked Davenport as well- I see it as #1948 for basically the same reasons.

Take a good look at the portrait of the 1754 you found and posted- I see that portrait as being different than subject coin. I suspect the production for this thaler is fairly high- likely over 100K minted per year or close to it. Multiple reverse dies were likely used and there seem to be some variations based on the images posted and what is in Krause.

I have no reason to believe it is and I highly doubt that it is a contemporary counterfeit.

Aegis3

@airplanenut said:

@Aegis3 said:
Try the Sixbid archives. Looks like Kunker has sold a few of this variety.

I searched “1754 Bavaria Thaler” and of the 11 results, 4 are the same general design, but all have the horizontal date which matches the Krause photo.

I believe I used the search terms (not including quotes) of "1754 taler 1948". Searching in multiple languages can be tricky. Taler vs thaler, Bavaria vs Bayern and so forth. Dates and attribution numbers are more stable, usually.

airplanenut

@Aegis3 said:

@airplanenut said:

@Aegis3 said:
Try the Sixbid archives. Looks like Kunker has sold a few of this variety.

I searched “1754 Bavaria Thaler” and of the 11 results, 4 are the same general design, but all have the horizontal date which matches the Krause photo.

I believe I used the search terms (not including quotes) of "1754 taler 1948". Searching in multiple languages can be tricky. Taler vs thaler, Bavaria vs Bayern and so forth. Dates and attribution numbers are more stable, usually.

Ah yes--thank you! Now I'm seeing a few of them.

@coinkat said:
@airplanenut

I see it as being KM224- I write this mainly based upon the portrait and that the reverse is more alike based on the top of the crown in the picture in Krause. I checked Davenport as well- I see it as #1948 for basically the same reasons.

Take a good look at the portrait of the 1754 you found and posted- I see that portrait as being different than subject coin. I suspect the production for this thaler is fairly high- likely over 100K minted per year or close to it. Multiple reverse dies were likely used and there seem to be some variations based on the images posted and what is in Krause.

I have no reason to believe it is and I highly doubt that it is a contemporary counterfeit.

Appreciate the insight! One thing that I've found a bit confusing... it seems that KM-501 is the former KM-224. My copy of Krause, which isn't brand new (it's not like they've making any more coins dated 1700-1800) has it listed as 224, but I've seen things online as 501. Finally I saw a website that mentioned 224 became 501. Dav-1948 has remained the same, so that keeps some consistency when navigating variety numbers.