Are dealers useless and antiquated? I have added an optional description. Feel free to add a comment
jayhawke
Posts: 1,306 ✭✭✭
With FB and IG groups do we need them anymore? Fanatics will soon be selling direct to consumers and no more middleman. Should the market completely shift? Auction houses appear to be growing market share.
Are dealers useless and antiquated? I have added an optional description. Feel free to add a comment
This is a public poll: others will see what you voted for.
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Ebay has been around for 25 years...........yet there are still shows; and a few shops
Anyone who has a "PC" and cards that are not PC can be considered a dealer. Not sure what the difference between a flipper and a dealer is. As flippers get more inventory they get tables at shows or become sources of cards on Ebay. I would say there are more dealers than ever and well over 50% of sales are between dealers and go through more layers of middlemen than ever before. Those on FB and IG are middlemen too, often buying from shows and then flipping those cards. They bought from someone and are selling to someone else. With the clamped down 1099s on Ebay and PayPal the thousands of card dealers will be identified. Every card out there has multiple outlets trying to find the collector that will pay the most for it.
I guess it all depends on your definition. I've sold 500-600 cards from my personal collection on Ebay in the last couple years, but I wouldn't call myself a dealer. But if you're talking about people who make their living selling cards (either online or physical space), then yeah, I don't see a lot of value in them. We all look in the same places for cards. I can find what I need without the need for a(nother) middleman.
There's a place for dealers, such as BBCE, 4SC, LCS, auction houses, shows, and etc. In one form or another, they provide a service in buying and selling cards. You can determine value on your own. I am at the stage in my life where one day I will sell my entire collection. Entities like BBCE will get a phone call from me or my wife.
I think the real question is about local card shops. The dealer is the guy sitting there every day paying overhead to offer a place where people can gather and buy and sell and discuss. I would say the dealer is the guy making his living trading. I don't even know if that's possible anymore though. I suspect that most of the shops that are still open actually operate at a loss just to have the opportunity to buy from the general public.
The thing is, there is a lot of value in having places to go in your community. I live in one of the biggest cities in the world. A lot of stuff around me is closing. One of the biggest cities in the world and there isn't much reason for me to leave my house. The people who pay to keep spaces open where people can go and enjoy themselves with other people who share similar interests are getting to be fewer and fewer. Ordering online is a lot less cool to me than being able to go somewhere to buy what I'm looking for.
Where I live there's a shop that's got sports cards but also Magic (and the like) and comic books, and every time I'm there I see other customers. They're off in the fringes of town, where rent must be much lower. I doubt they'd survive on sports cards alone.
What a dealer means to me is someone who is aggressively trying to dig up collections to bring to market. The current internet infrastructure does make it much easier for collectors to sell some cards for themselves, and I’m sure dealers hate not having everyone crawling to them to sell for 40% of retail. But dealers do serve an important purpose in bringing new collections to market, and when those cards hit eBay (which is very rarely lately) I am happy someone made them available to me.
Why would you need a middle man to bring it to market when, now, the owners can just do it themselves and you wouldn't even know the difference when you see it on eBay. And what does aggressively mean? Like, the dealer is the guy posting "WTB Collections" in the Facebook groups and on Craigslist the most? The guys who have been sitting in those stores for years are the guys who know where all the cards are. When you sell cards to people for a long time you end up knowing all the people with the cards. Well, unless you're just sending cards out through the mail. Paying rent on a store is pretty aggressive too. It is hard to compete with the guys who have no overhead though. I think the current situation is real sad.
@CardGeek
Not everyone who owns a nice collection is going to sell it on eBay or Facebook. They may be elderly, uncomfortable with the internet, etc. By aggressive, I mean dealers who do whatever it takes to unearth those collections and bring them to market. And there are plenty of collections like that.
What is "whatever it takes" though? You mean like sitting in a store for 30 years developing contacts?
Just like any business, the quality card shops that have what people want will have customers. With today's choices of how to purchase collectibles, it's just way harder to stay open.
Not sure why you are obsessed with the idea of a store.
i define dealer as one who makes his income completely from the resale of sportscards.
everyone now has the opportunity to buy/sell online easier than ever before, without the overhead a traditional dealer has.
the only real advantage "dealers" have had is the current distribution model for unopened. that will be radically changing as soon as Fanatics starts selling direct to consumer and there are no more wholesale accounts.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I'm obsessed with storefronts because the way the market is working right now is completely flawed. I'm, only, 48 years old. But, a lot of people in this hobby are younger than I am. Younger people who won't remember what the world was like before the internet and believe that just because something is newer it's better. It's interesting that you mention elderly people who may be uncomfortable with the internet. 30+ years in to the digital age the elderly who would be uncomfortable using the internet are dying off. Elderly people are going to be just as comfortable with the internet as anyone else in not too many years. It used to be that my parents were computer illiterate. Now, though, they've been using computers for 30+ years.
Nearly every day I see posts about fraud stemming from people trading blind over the internet. At the same time I don't want everything I do online tied to my phone.
You're a dealer, right? Do you want to sell me something? By "you" I mean anybody reading. How much information are you going to give me about yourself. Is that JPG on your profile actually you? What's your address? What hours can I swing by to browse your stock?
I know this seems like a simple question. The truth though is that all of these hobbies and the small markets they create reflect what's happening in markets and economies at every level.
It used to be that if you were a store owner it was a bad idea to stock anything that Walmart or Target sold. Because, you can't beat the price they can sell at after buying at the quantities those companies buy at. Now, Amazon, Target and Walmart sell everything. So, what can small business owners sell? Now "dealers" buy from Amazon, Target and Walmart just to crack and sell on eBay. It's as if Amazon, Target and Walmart are the wholesalers. They just removed the wholesale discount. Or shifted it directly to the gigantic retailers. I don't see how that's good for anybody but Amazon, Target and Walmart. It's not better for the customers. The customers end up losing places to go in the community and ends up paying a markup when the "dealers" buy out Amazon Target and Walmart. Do you really think that Fanatics is going to tell Walmart and Target that they don't get a discount?
The real advantage dealers have is being high profile, being available and having contacts. It turns out anybody can sell a car or a house. That doesn't make everybody a car dealer or a real estate agent. If I buy a car from random dude and have a problem I may not be able to find random dude. If I buy it from Mercedes Benz I know I can get help because Mercedes Benz has 5 locations, authorized dealers, within 10 miles of me. I see tons of posts on this site from by people dealing on the internet who don't want to take returns. I may or may not be able to actually return my Mercedes. But, I know that company will help me resolve my problem and give me, reasonably, accurate advice or information. I know I can drive 10 minutes and be face to face with a representative. There's huge value in that. This hobby seems to want to burn down the dealerships.
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On a side note. Why do they bother putting cards in packs anymore? All the wrappers just go right in the trash. 99% of the cards that are printed nobody wants. If they only printed singles to order, there would be actual unplanned/non-manufactured rarities. Maybe Fanatics should just sell singles straight to the public. They could even slab them before they sell. Then nobody would flip on eBay unless they were selling under retail or until Fanatics was sold out or decided to stop producing. It would take the lottery out of the game though. Maybe Fanatics could sell scratchers that you could redeem for hot /1, /10, /100s. They could manufacture a scratcher for less than the cost of current packaging probably.
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I should write a book. Oh wait, nobody reads books anymore. Borders, Walden Books, 90% of the independent book stores, gone. Barns & Noble still open. I hear it's a good place to meet chicks. Granted, nobody has ever met a woman at a sports card store ever.
There are always dealers at Chantilly with tons of overpriced vintage that don’t seemed motivated to sell anything - even their body language is passive / apathetic or even surly at times. And I’ve seen the same ones at that show for 10+ Years with little to no table traffic. I can only assume they do most business with other dealers during non-show hours? But they don’t seem to enjoy the process one bit. And when they drag their spouse along, it gets even more depressing.
Kiss me twice.....let's party.
If by dealer you mean the conduit directly thru the card co.'s ~ Yes, they are about to be directly circumvented.... if by dealer you mean the collector/investor who buys cards and sets up at a card show then~ NO ~they are dealers and still a valid aspect of the hobby food chain....
I don't think I'm useless or antiquated.
There's no doubt, it's easier than ever to sell your own stuff rather than sell it to a dealer, but anyone who has ever decided to sell their own cards will tell you, it can be like having a second job. People like me just offer those who would like to sell their collection an alternative - sell it all at once and leave it up to us to piece it out for a profit.
I think I can speak for most dealers who make their living buying and selling cards - we are busier than ever. The demands for my services are at an all time high, that I turn deals down regularly because I just can't get to them all in a reasonable amount of time.
Reed Kasaoka
Head Buyer, Dave & Adam's Card World
Reed, you were exactly the person I had in mind with my comments above. I remember the work you put into finding and obtaining collections, and I imagine almost none of those people wanted the hassle of trying to realize the full value of their collections themselves.
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You said it, and I've probably heard you say it before along with others, that you are thankful guys like me dig up all the cool stuff hidden away in collections and make them available to everyone. I've remembered that sentiment over the years; I'm doing my part in the process of finding new homes for sports collectibles. Yes, I get paid to do it, and I know that upsets quite a few people, and I'm not sure why it does.
In my defense, I do work quite hard as this job isn't for everyone, whether it be the product knowledge or the travel or the physical labor or the negotiations, but I couldn't imagine doing anything else. My good friend, fellow dealer Rob Veres at Burbank Sportscards, was once "scolded" by a Facebook friend how hard it was to work 40 hours a week. He replied, and I couldn't "like" his comment enough, that he knocks out 40 hours a week "just on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday."
There are tons of lazy dealers in this business, and I'm sure the OP is referring to them when he created this poll and discussion, but there are quite a few of us who work hard, work smart, and are quite successful being useful.
I hear you on that. Over the weekend I sold a bunch of vintage commons in G to VG shape for $8 but eBay's system in calculating the shipping cost for the buyer came out with about $2, but when I went to generate the label I was going to be charged $3.50 or so. It took 15 minutes of online chatting with eBay support to learn that there was indeed a glitch in their system, and they'd credit me with the roughly $1.50 difference. So I just spent 15 minutes to get $1.50 -- absolutely not worth it, but I wasn't going to supplement the buyer's shipping to that extent. (Well, I guess I could have, since sellers do offer free shipping. But I wasn't seeing things from that perspective. Especially since I thought the cards should have gone for twice that much.)
My point being that a lot of people would be better off bringing their old collection to a dealer than going through the frustration of selling it themselves.
Most dealers I talk to these days don’t want a connection to their customers, just a transaction. A sad part of the hobby has disappeared.
Can somebody please explain to me how the hell any sports card store actually makes any money. I can't figure out how the hell they still stay open ?
It used to be, people would go in to these stores and talk. The dealer was selling cards to collectors. When those collectors wanted to sell the dealer would be the first person they were offered to. Now the market is totally different.
I have one of the biggest sports card stores in the industry, I think, like 30 minutes from me. The people working there don't even want to talk to the customers. They push you toward a computer in the store so you can shop on the computer. Then they tell you when your order is ready so you can check out. It might actually be cheaper for me to pay the shipping than to pay for the gas to drive over there.
I think it's interesting that Dave and Adams is turning deals down regularly. The demand for his service is at an all time high. Doesn't that mean that more people than ever are looking to dump off their cards? Perhaps unsuccessfully?
I'm turning down deals because I can't be everywhere in the country at once. After I fill a truck with product and get back to the office, it has to be sorted, priced, and listed for sale. I wish I could just hand it off to my guys and say "here, you do it," but they don't know anywhere near what I do about vintage, unopened, autographs, etc. so I have to be in the office at least part of the time providing guidance and expertise.
If a deal isn't approaching six figures, it likely has to wait until I know I'm going to be in the area, so I can attempt to buy several deals at once. I might have 10-15 appointments on a two week buying trip; it's a grind! I've also had sellers who only want to deal with me wait over a year until I was back in their area again, but those are rare exceptions. If I know it could be months before I can get to someone, I encourage them to find other options if time is of the essence. I consider myself fortunate that I can pick and choose which deals are worth pursuing.
My rate for closing deals is at an all time low these days. A hot market has led to even more sellers with unreasonable expectations. They want me to buy everything, come and pick it up, and pay cash, but want retail or higher. There's nothing worse than someone not valuing your time and effort. LOL
Must be somewhat frustrating. I get it, everyone wants to maximize the value of their collection. What I don't get is that anyone that has been a collector for 10+ years and many of us for 40+ years is that we have very little dollars "invested" in our collections compared to todays value. So when the time comes to sell: Why wouldn't we sell those $100 purchases years ago for $500-$1000 (insert any Hank Aaron PSA 8) instead of holding out to get closer to APR especially when it's a cash deal, no seller fees, and leave some meat on the bone for people like Reed living the grind finding hidden collections.
If it's a $1 million dollar value or more, just how fast would Reed get there ?
Not that fast. I require proof of life, and if the collection is that big, the seller may not want to put in the effort to even do a quick summary. I've never bought a seven figure deal, but have been offered many, and it makes me wonder if they are still there, sitting unsold.
At $1M, it's likely an auction house has already started making promises it can't keep, and the seller can't unhear those words. I don't fault anyone for using an auction house for their best stuff, but if you're gonna sell me the leftovers, you need to have realistic expectations.
Yep, they want to get retail without lifting a finger. Not going to happen now, would never happen in the past when they would take their collection to a shop and get 35 on the dollar for it.
People who don’t sell on eBay have NO clue the work involved.
HOF SIGNED FOOTBALL RCS
Often the easier cheaper path isn't the best choice long term.
I had a dealer, and I don’t mean someone with with a retail store ask me, how can he can get someone like me and my contemporaries to sell our collections. I told him first don’t be so full of himself. There are so many ways to sell collections these days, this guys doesn’t get it. A big zero when it comes to people skills and customer service. He hates the fact that collectors don’t have to sell to him. He loves capitalism, except he is the only one allowed to participate. He is a one hit wonder. Buy, sell and burn a bridge.
When a dealer advertises free appraisal, it actually means according to this dealer, only on cards,collections they want to buy. False advertising and a waste of my time.