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2 OF 3 TOP GRADING SERVICES DOING ANCIENTS, WHY NOT PCGS?
KOYNGUY
Posts: 103 ✭✭✭
ANACS has been certifying ancients since 1972, NGC since 2005(?). Both apparently doing a good job for collectors
and investors. Why has PCGS not joined the fray? They can obviously afford the talent and reference library need for such an undertaking. Are they having trouble finding personnel? Too much work? Love to see you guys join in!
I'd be glad to advise. J.P. Martin NUMISMATIST1@MSN.COM
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Because they shouldn't. There have been many posts on this subject but it comes down to:
a) they don't guarantee authenticity anyway;
b) ancients are far more variable due to the method of manufacture, which makes grading pointless;
c) most would be considered incredibly rare if they were US coins. If there are 50 of a variety known it's actually quite common - so what are you grading against?;
d) All ancients have been dug up from the ground. So what does a 'details' grade for cleaning/environmental damage even mean?;
e) most people who collect ancients do so for the history and want to hold the coin in their hands.
Of course, they reason they don't is economics.
Hello John Conduitt,
I'm not sure if we've met but I assume you are an ancient collector.
I'd be happy to share my opinion with you and address your 5 points,
First though, I'D like to establish some of my credentials.
I have been a collector of Ancients for 50 years, worked with Harlan Berk over 40 years ago, and been an professional
grader and authenticator of Greek, Roman and Byzantine coins since 1984, Established ANAAB, ICG, and full service Slabbing of ancients in both ICG and Anacs.
a) they don't guarantee authenticity anyway
Both ANACS and David Sear guarantee the authenticity of coins they certify and always have. NGC does not, But has an excellent record with authenticty. And yes, ANACS has bought back a few coins. dozens out of 10,000, but less than 10 types of coins, (Remember the Black sea hoard?)
b) ancients are far more variable due to the method of manufacture, which makes grading pointless;
I would argue quite the contrary, coins like 2021 dollars have little variability and as a consequence matter little as to MS-69 or 70, Common morgan dollars may range from $25 for an AG-3 to $2,000 for an MS-68, Ancient coins that vary in style, strike, surface condition, centeredness, and the worst to the best are valued from 10-1000 times a base good coin.
c) most would be considered incredibly rare if they were US coins. If there are 50 of a variety known it's actually quite common - so what are you grading against?;
It is all relative, While there are few ancient coins that survive in the hundreds of thousands, there is not millions of collectors (even worldwide) to push demand. The historical appreciation bar is also higher for ancients. All dies of ancient coins differ as they are hand cut on similar, but not blanks of exacting sameness, The variability of style does not preclude a fair analysis or comparison of similar coins even on a 70 point scale.
d) All ancients have been dug up from the ground. So what does a 'details' grade for cleaning/environmental damage even mean?;
I would argue your assumption is correct that all ancients have experienced some degree of environmental degradation.
However the variance of degradation is great based on metallic content and environmental conditions.
Gold coins found in a ceramic pot in desert conditions will suffer virtually no degradation whereas copper or base metal
coins in wet, acidic or salty conditions may be eroded to the point of loss of identity. Thankfully the 1-3% surviving coins
are identifiable and have moderate corrosion and encrustations. Virtually all have been cleaned to varying degrees and
pristine. Are ancients in AU to mint state graded with the same criteria as u.s type or morgan dollars? No. The standards
are more relaxed. You may argue that this conceptually wrong, But there are variances in grading standards of U.S. coins
of only a couple centuries duration. Think Bust dollars versus morgan dollars. There are mint state aurei, denari, staters and drachms by almost anyone's standard.
e) most people who collect ancients do so for the history and want to hold the coin in their hands.
For most advanced collectors this may be true. I have found most collectors, investors, and newly acquainted ancient enthusiasts like and prefer the peace of mind that a disassociated third party opinion brings. I think the real crime is the thousands of first time purchasers the will be turned of by the fake, altered, repaired and over graded and over priced coins
they encounter and add to their collections. PCGS has a chance to add to the value of the collectors experience while making a healthy profit. Let me also add I have relatively few coins certified out of my thousand coin collection. Not because I dislike
holders, but because most all were acquired previous to the services inception. Keep in mind there are Millions of Americans
that would love to overpay for a "B.C." ," Jesus era coin" on T.V. From a mass marketer, just to have the opportunity to own these historical mementos. Whose to say they are wrong.
Love to see your response, J.P. Martin
good convo, but agree with the idea that its based on economics. Easy to move huge volumes of us coins through the grading machine when they're pretty uniform and well known. Much harder to do this for ancients which require a huge knowledge base for attribution, and the volume of ancients slabbed is far lower.
But would also like to hear your perspective @KOYNGUY, given your experience you would have a much better handle on things
Yes I collect ancients, although not exclusively.
I certainly respect your experience.
Unfortunately, I've seen many negative opinions about ANACS grading ancients. It's a bit academic as it would rarely be cost effective for me to use them. Either way, similarly respectable experts (and sometimes with more specialist knowledge) at major auction houses and dealers will guarantee the authenticity of ancient coins (or your can return them for a refund). That doesn't require the coin to be encapsulated or for a subscription, an extra fee and return postage to be paid.
With many ancients, you can even buy directly from the dealer distributing a hoard, or see images of your coin in a hoard sale. Often (in places like the UK or the Netherlands) you will find the coin photographed and written up in the Portable Antiquities Scheme. It's much like buying moderns directly from the mint. This is authentication without needing to send your coin back off in the mail to get wrapped in plastic. Dare I even say it's better.
You could argue that. It seems to me that a grading system falls apart when there are a dozen aspects of a coin's appeal to consider on a single scale. NGC have introduced 'strike' and 'surfaces' to address exactly that problem, but of course it isn't enough. You end up resorting to net grading, which is when it loses credibility. If you use net grading, you might as well scrap the grades and just say - that coin's worth $100, and that one's worth $1000.
I'm not sure demand is the point. If there are 10 of a coin, anyone can tell which ones are more appealing than the others without a grade. If there are 1000s of a coin, who cares if yours is MS69 or MS70, when you can easily find a good one and also account for style, centring, strike of the obverse, strike of the reverse, patina, flan shape, flan cracks, how much of your favourite element in the design is on the flan etc. (No-one who collects ancients, anyway).
And yet the TPG will either say 'Environmental Damage' or not. No nuance. The only option left is to add/subtract from the grade, which is meant to be telling me the level of wear.
The question is whether an ancients collector needs a third party to tell them that coin A is better than coin B by an imperceptible amount on just one of the dozen variables of a coin's appearance that might not even matter. (If it was perceptible, they wouldn't need the TPG to tell them). It's quite telling that NGC don't even have population reports - so you can't tell if your coin is 'top pop'. Of course, it'd be top pop anyway, because there's only one coin in the population.
I would say grades are only relevant either to people who collect grades (who might as well stick to modern coins where there are fewer other variables) or to investors - and I don't know if as a collector I could justify TPGs on the grounds that people with no interest in the coins are encouraged to buy them in the hope that the value rises on the backs of collectors. Perhaps they should stick to bullion.
>
I'd say most collectors of ancients who like slabs came from US moderns in the first place (where TPGs are much more justified). You don't often see anyone else even talk about grade on ancients forums - beginners as much as anyone. And unlike the auction houses that major in US coins (Heritage, Stacks), those that focus on ancients tend not to make much of the grade at all e.g. CNG has no filter for grade and does not mention it in the heading. As I said, peace of mind doesn't have to mean losing the connection to your coins and the reason you collect them in the first place.
This is true of all coins. I would say it's not so difficult to avoid fake ancients (as much as is possible) by buying from reputable auction houses and dealers, of which there are many. Anyone who buys anything on eBay had better learn about the coins first - including how to avoid fake slabs.
This leads on to another benefit of buying raw ancient coins. You get to feel and examine your coins, and learn what a real coin is like. You can examine the edge - crucial for spotting many fakes, but hidden in a slab. You can see and feel (and even pick at) a fake patina and maybe wash it off. You can weigh the coin - crucial in spotting fakes but inexplicably left off the label on a slab.
I'm glad they don't. The way it is now, I wait for 6 months to have the coins back, if they did ancients too, I will be as old as Iulius Caesar when the coins return
Dear mr.Conduitt
Thanks for your response. I appreciated and was frankly surprised by your thoughtful opinions.
So often I am confronted with hearsay, immature and impulsive opinions, that genuine rational discourse is refreshing and welcoming
In a nutshell, I can say that ancient grading services are probably not as useful to you and I.
We pursue coins through coin shows, specialized established auctions, dealers and web sites. EBAY, Great Collections, TV venues, HSN, Mass marketers, are predominantly designed for introductory sales. This can be a good thing. One can only acquire so many gordian III antoniniani, Severus alexander denarii, and Constantine bronzes, Why not certify, and mass market these hoard coins to the uninitiated.
Yes, They may pay a multiple of what you'd pay at a coin show, but the feeling of owning a coin that a gladiator may have spent is often worth it. None of my initial Roman, Greek coin purchases were great bargains, but they have a special place in my collection.
David Sundman sells entry level coins through Littleton at extraordinary levels. Is he seen as a vulture feeding on the unwary? Of course not! There is a greater cost to engage the general public.
However, the question initially was whether PCGS should pursue this channel of numismatics.
In my mind This venue offers several benefits to Collectors Universe and PCGS.
First and foremost it is very profitable. The NGC program is very successful. I told David Vagi that I did not think an ancient authentication opinion would not fly as an unbacked product.
I was wrong. NGC has struggled to meet demand. They are making plenty of money and the Ancient Market is changing by their influence.
PCGS can and will diversify it's product line. Greek, roman, byzantine are only steps in a long line
of additional services. At ANACS we strive to attempt every coin, medal and token made. This has included Islamic, Medieval, Hammered and other difficult coins. At PCGS, with it's great resources, be a challenge
Should read, At PCGS, with it's great resources, this should not be a challenge
You can edit your posts, should you desire- just click the gear icon after the time stamp and an "Edit" option pops up.
Maybe once the current mania for graded, sealed video games and graded, non-sports cards dies down, they will put some resources on figuring out an ancient coin grading/authentication business model. In order for them to differentiate, I feel they will need to offer a different product than currently exists at the other services. I don't know what that would be, but they will have to figure that out.
Perhaps Stacks-Bowers could help push them into that market with an exclusive deal similar to what they have done with world coins?
Funny you mention those other hobbies, maybe you haven't heard, but sealed graded VHS tapes are the new trend.
https://vhsdna.com
https://www.actionnetwork.com/news/sealed-vhs-tapes-next-alternative-asset-class
I've been seeing it in many auctions and articles now.
I just shake my head.
Both ANACS and David Sear guarantee the authenticity of coins they certify and always have. NGC does not, But has an excellent record with authenticty. And yes, ANACS has bought back a few coins. dozens out of 10,000, but less than 10 types of coins,
Wait, What?????
Ngc slabs are not being certified if they are fake or real?
So NGC will slab a fake?
Thank you, Heavenly Father, for first loving us.
<------I was currently about ready to ship my Caesar coin in.. should I not?
Thank you, Heavenly Father, for first loving us.
No they won't slab it if they know it is fake. But they don't guarantee it isn't a fake. You still get the benefit of their expert view, as you do if you buy from CNG or the other major auction houses, who also happen to guarantee it.
If you bought your Caesar coin from eBay and you don't know whether it is real or not, NGC will most likely tell you. Grading is definitely worth it if you spend a lot of money on ancient coins without knowing what you are doing. I suppose this is @KOYNGUY's point about the entry level market.
I did purchase the Caesar from CNG recently and would just like to have it slabbed, I have several ancient coins already in NGC slabs that I purchased that way. Is there a better alternative to NGC?
Thank you, Heavenly Father, for first loving us.
I would stick with NGC. If they grade it, and it's been seen by both CNG and NGC, you can be as confident as you'll ever be that it's genuine. If you sell it, the CNG auction photos will still be there to prove it, and it'll be in a slab.