Tough Situation
Project_Donkey
Posts: 5 ✭
Long time reader of this forum, first time poster.
A friend just buy a PSA 10 1997 Ultra David Ortiz on eBay and had the seller send directly to his PWCC vault. Four days after arrival, PWCC contacted my friend and said it was a counterfeit slab. After trying to reach out to the seller, who didn’t respond, he reached out to eBay and told them that he had been a victim on fraud. eBay stated that because he didn’t contact them within three days of PWCC receiving they were unable to cancel the sale due to a three day limitation on refunds for sports cards. This brings up lots of issues.
- Kudos to PWCC for determining that the slab was counterfeit.
- How can eBay enforce a three day return timeframe for a counterfeit item? I understand the concern that they don’t want returns due to market movements, but why wouldn’t eBay have a carve out for fraud?
- My friend will now go to AMEX and try to initiate a chargeback. If that’s successful, will the money be pulled back from eBay or the criminal seller? If its eBay, why would they take risk on, and would they retaliate against my friend?
- Is eBay trying to punish people from using vault services? They said they don’t want people sending purchases to third parties.
For those of you interested, here is the link to the auction. Apologies, this is my first post and I don;t know how to imbed a link.
Yes, there are all sorts of red flags in this ad.
Anyone have any advice as to how to proceed?
Evan
Comments
Why anyone would have bid on that listing is beyond me.
I wish you friend luck on the chargeback.
CDsNuts, 1/9/15
That's what he gets for not paying sales tax!
I’m sure he declares on on his year-end tax forms.
How did your friend pay for the card? He may be able to file a claim if he paid using Paypal or a credit card.
In this case I think trying a credit card chargeback might be the only option. At least your friend can show a chain-of-evidence that the card was shipped to a vault service, and then the vault service deemed the card a fake.
I would also call eBay and ask to speak to a supervisor. I had some luck on one issue where the supervisor was actually able to help remedy a bad situation.
I agree the 3 day window to file a return really hurts if the buyer is sending the card to a Vault Service. The issue is the Vault Service takes a few days to process the package, and by that time it's after the deadline.
Going forward, eBay is in the process of adding "Guarantee Authentication" -- but currently it is only on RAW cards above $500. I have read that at some point they will expand the service to graded cards (which might have caught the fake slab in this instance), but it depends on what threshold they apply for the value of graded cards (any slab, only slabs above $1K, $5K, $10K, etc...)
But in the meantime if I were sending to a Vault Service, I would only buy from sellers who offer Returns.
Good luck to your friend, I hope they can do something for him.
I had a very similar thing happen to me. Complained like crazy, but because I didn't initiate within three days I had no chance. The Ebay rep I was escalated to had little to no desire to apply common sense to the situation - like why do any of their seller protections continue in a fraud situation?! Lesson learned: As long as a seller has a no return policy + three days pass by, Ebay will let a seller get away with ANYTHING including sending counterfeit merch. It takes a lot to get me riled up but I was shouting at this guy - seems like as long as Ebay gets their cut, the rest doesn't much matter.
Paid directly through CC instead of using PP, which was a mistake by me. I was reimbursed temporarily during investigation, but ultimately ended up having to pay because not enough supporting evidence to reverse the transaction.
I will say there also seems to be an expectation of police involvement. I think these institutions take a sort of position like "If it's not a big enough deal for you to file a police report, it's not a big enough deal for us to be serious about it."
He paid through eBay using Amex. Amex has refunded his money—while there’s an investigation ongoing. It could be reversed of course. He’s tried three different people at eBay and they’ve all quoted the three day rule. They seem to be sticking to the procedures. I mentioned to file a police report to him. He’s been hesitant so far on that for whatever reason. He does have a return address from the seller—not sure if it’s legitimate—so
I suggested contacting the precinct in that jurisdiction. Judging from the hallmark experience which seems very similar things are looking a bit grim.
That's ridiculous that 3 days stands even when it's a counterfeit item. I am sure an unethical person could make a great living abusing that rule.
It's also strange that in one direction they make items go through an authenticity protocol now which some may consider overkill. Then on the other hand they allow people to sell counterfeit items and if they can get away with it for 3 days then they are off Scot free.
It's like the shortest statute of limitations on record.
The 3 days rule is garbage. For higher end stuff, I always use CC just to cover myself.
3 days is MORE than enough time to figure things out.... It's not eBay's or the Seller's problem if the buyer doesn't open it. eBay and sellers are in the business of selling things to an actual buyer via a normal shipping method to the buyer. Having things go to a 3rd party for "tampering" is not part of the deal (well except for the new eBay $500+ raw card authentication process). I'm not saying it's fair or right, but everyone knows that when you buy cards on eBay you get 3 days.... PERIOD. After that, it's not eBay's problem. That is when you escalate to the payment method protections that are in place, but blaming eBay is off-base since you are the cause of the issue for taking more than 3 days. I'm guessing even the counterfeit issue doesn't make a difference since after 3 days you could have swapped it for a fake or some other lame theory.
And the best part of this story is that it involves PWCC, Of course eBay is going to tell you to pound sand, because they BANNED them from eBay for improper business practices (in theory, I Have no issue with them)
Excuse me Rufus? I’m out of town for 3 days and because of that I’m stuck with a fake slab/fake card? That’s an idiotic take if I’ve ever heard one.
You could swap for a counterfeit on day 1 just as easy as day 3, so that is irrelevant.
HOF SIGNED FOOTBALL RCS
That sucks! Sorry to hear but I guess we all need to be more careful. We have all had a slab or two that didn't look right, something was off in our collections and to find out it wasn't legit would suck.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Your vacations are not eBay's or the seller's problem... It's up to the buyer to plan for the purchase's arrival.
I can't believe someone would think it's OK to receive a fake slab, because it wasn't reported by the day after arrival, it's the buyer's fault. I honestly cannot believe that is your opinion.
HOF SIGNED FOOTBALL RCS
The guy has to be an Ebay employee, no?
NO, I never said it is ok.. It is NOT ok.... But there are rules. We buy on eBay knowing that there are rules/responsibilities for buyers. It states the 3 day rule right on the auction:
Should eBay have a exception for the 3day rule when there is fraud or fakes, Yes.... But as of right now they don't. So if you don't have the competence to look at and vet your purchases within 3days after delivery, then you probably shouldn't purchase on eBay, or just come to the realization that you will be SOL until eBay changes its policy...
Yes, life happens and sometimes you may not open a package for 3 days, but that's on you, not eBay and not the seller. The seller has a responsibility not to screw the buyer (sending a fake), but per eBay rules, it is up to the Buyer to yell SHENANIGANS within 3days to hold the seller accountable.
It's sort of like when you valet your car, you can't really drive home and then claim that the valet damaged your car... (I know not a great example, but sort of the same gist).
I always wondered why anyone would have their cards sent somewhere else and not directly to them.
Seems like the scammers always take advantage of every opportunity to screw people.
God luck, I hope you are able to get your money back, and keep it!
I would have a tough time bidding $100 with that seller let alone $1500.
I agree. Just added this seller to my blocked list.
Taxes, for one. You can “avoid” the sales tax if the address is in a state with no sales tax, like Oregon.
So my friend just received a note from eBay. Looks like they may not challenge the chargeback. Fingers crossed.
As for sending cards to a vault--I do this as well for a few reasons. Taxes, as mentioned. I don't live in the safest neighborhood so I feel better knowing that my more valuable cards are not sitting in my mailbox or house unattended. I also find I look at them more often on the app then I look at my cards that are buried in boxes. I probably send 5-6 cards a month to a vault service and never had an issue. But to each their own.
I do wonder if this card had been sent to my friend directly if he would have been able to determine it was counterfeit. He's relatively new to the hobby, and hasn't seen nearly the number of slabs as PWCC has. Three day issues aside, this is a pretty valuable service which PWCC just provided to my friend.
Evan
I guess it could be argued that this is one reason why eBay intends to have graded cards go through the authentication process as well.
It looks like quite a few of the sellers slabs are fake. Check his sold items....
The Joe Sakic is my favorite!
Man, that’s crazy. The Ortiz is the least expensive of the fakes! Over $20,000 worth of fakes sold in the last month. There are a bunch of folks sitting on these fake slabs now that have no idea they are fake. So sad. Shame on eBay for letting this guy continue to advertise on their site. My buddy is going to let eBay know next time he speaks with them. See if they do anything…
When did it change to 3days? Totally missed that since I haven’t been a buyer in over a year.
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I don't know if anyone looked up the seller and what else he sells, but I didn't see one listing of any sports cards. I need see a lot of power tools, that tells me he likes going into Lowes.
Seller is starting to get hammered via feedback. If it isn't sorted out yet then try again. As more and more outright fake slabs are reported they should do something. If not try a credit card chargeback with the new information coming to light.
Sorry, how do you plan around an arrival that could take between 2 and 50 days?
And where are all the people that think the eBay auth guarantee is junk now. This is the reason.
Well, if it says that in the estimated delivery time, then I would make sure not to be on vacation for the next 53 days IF I wanted to have the option of invoking the eBay guarantee... In reality, the tracking should give you an estimate of actual delivery, assuming it is not international. Because life happens is not an excuse!