Is Joe Montana saying Otto Graham is the GOAT?
doubledragon
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Joe Montana was recently asked about whether he thinks Tom Brady is the GOAT, and his answer was a bit weird.
Joe Montana Unclear on Whether Tom Brady Should Be Named the ’GOAT‘
Montana was asked whether he considers the recently-retired Brady the greatest football player of all time.
Tom Brady is commonly referred to as the “GOAT” (greatest of all-time) of NFL players, but former NFL quarterback Joe Montana may think otherwise.
In a recent interview with The Spun, Montana was asked whether he thinks Brady should be called the GOAT now. Montana, who won four Super Bowl titles in his career, was among those referred to as the GOAT before Brady started in the NFL.
Montana didn‘t exactly answer the key part of the question, though.
“Well, obviously Tom has had a tremendous career. The hard part is trying to compare eras. I mean this is what, Super Bowl 56. The NFL has been around for 100 years,” Montana said. “There was a guy way back, Otto Graham, who won 11 championships before there were Super Bowls. I mean the game was just so different, the ball might not have even been the same shape back then. If you watch him, it’s just had to compare guys.”
But, when Montana was asked a similar question last March following Brady‘s seventh Super Bowl win, Montana said he did consider Brady the greatest of all-time.
“I think Tom has taken his place on the top up there a long time ago,” Montana said. "He's had a tremendous career, he's fun to watch. Everybody always contests over that, but I think if you look at what Tom has been able to accomplish in his time that he's played, I think it puts him definitely up there at the top of the list.”
It is unclear what has changed Montana‘s mind on Brady‘s GOAT status in the last 11 months, but regardless, he still considers the now-retired quarterback one of the greatest, if not the greatest.
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I think Brady is the GOAT, but for those of you who are not familiar with Otto Graham, he was consideted the original GOAT before Tom Brady, and even Joe Montana. Here is a great article comparing Tom Brady and Otto Graham.
With 10 title games, 7 championships, Otto Graham deserves to be mentioned with Tom Brady in discussion of Greatest of All Timeby Scott PetrakFebruary 18, 2021
Tom Brady stands alone with seven Super Bowl victories and 10 trips to the big game.
He has competition when it comes to the greatest winner in professional football history.
Otto Graham played in 10 league championship games in 10 seasons as quarterback of the Browns and won seven titles before retiring. Brady matched Graham on Feb. 7 when the Buccaneers beat the Chiefs 31-9 in Super Bowl LV, but he needed 21 seasons to do what Graham did in 10.
“Otto shouldn’t be overlooked just because of when it was,” Bengals owner Mike Brown told The Chronicle-Telegram in a phone interview Tuesday. “He was a real winner.”
Brown is uniquely qualified to discuss Brady and Graham. He was 10 years old when Graham began his career with the Browns in 1946 under Hall of Fame coach Paul Brown, Mike’s dad. Mike, 85, has been around professional football since and has owned the Bengals since 1991.
“Well, Otto’s my favorite,” Brown said. “He was a player who meant so much to the Browns. I grew up as a young boy watching him.
“He had comparable success to Brady. They were the best of their eras. Football was different in the different eras. In Otto’s time, he was the best. In Brady’s time, arguably he is the best.”
Browns quarterback Otto Graham scores the final touchdown of his career in the NFL Championship win Dec. 26, 1955, in Los Angeles.
AP FILE
Graham is rarely mentioned when Brady is almost universally recognized as the NFL’s Greatest of All Time. Not only is perspective slanted toward recent events, the NFL gives extra weight to the Super Bowl era, which began in 1966 after Graham’s career and the Browns’ glory years had ended.
The Browns began play in 1946 and won all four All-America Football Conference championships before joining the NFL in 1950. They earned instant credibility by beating the defending NFL champion Eagles 35-10 in the opener, then topping the Rams in the title game, as Graham picked up yards running to set up Lou Groza’s winning field goal. Graham lost three straight title matchups — by seven, 10 and one — before winning two in a row and retiring at 34 years old.
“I think it’s the thing that sets him apart. He was a winner. Brady’s a winner,” Mike Brown said. “That’s pretty remarkable stuff. Otto did it over a shorter span of years. You can argue that that sets him over Brady, or you can argue that Brady was able to do it all the way to age 43 and maybe he’ll continue to do it even more. That’s extraordinary. They’re both extraordinary players. Otto does deserve to be in the conversation when you talk about the top guys.”
Graham, who died in 2003 at 82 years old, didn’t miss a game in his 10 years and made five Pro Bowls. “Automatic Otto” retired after winning championship No. 7 and was inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame in 1965. The Browns unveiled a statue of him outside FirstEnergy Stadium on Sept. 7, 2019.
“The thing that Otto had was a certain physicality about him,” Brown said. “He moved in the pocket. He could move outside of the pocket. So when I think of comparables, probably (John) Elway is more comparable than Brady’s style or (Peyton) Manning’s style.
“Otto was a great athlete. He could run with the ball effectively. He chose not to unless it was absolutely necessary in order to protect himself and that protected the team.”
Graham was an All-American football and basketball player at Northwestern University. He played a season in the National Basketball League with the Rochester Royals and won a championship. He then joined the Browns and rushed for 50 touchdowns in 10 seasons.
Anyone who’s seen Brady’s 40-yard dash at the 2000 scouting combine knows Graham was the better athlete. Brady made his career with a strong, accurate arm, subtle movement inside the pocket, great decision-making and the ability to thrive in the biggest moments.
Graham had the same characteristics.
“As a passer, he had the ability that the great quarterbacks have, which is to find the open receiver and to get the ball to the open receiver in a catchable, accurate fashion,” Brown said. “Otto could do it at all ranges.”
The numbers support the testimonial.
Not only did he lead the league in passing yards five times, completion percentage four times and touchdown passes three times, Graham is the all-time leader with 9.0 yards an attempt, more than half a yard more than anyone else in history. Hall of Famer Sid Luckman and Chiefs quarterback Patrick Mahomes are second at 8.4. Brady ranks tied for 29th at 7.5.
“That has always been considered the principal standard, and that’s the one that seems to identify the top quarterbacks best,” Brown said. “And it speaks well for Otto that he registers well in that category.”
NFL Network ranked Graham No. 16 in 2010 on its list of greatest players. Brady was No. 21 after winning three Super Bowls. Hall of Fame coach Don Shula presented Graham after growing up watching him then becoming a teammate.
“Otto certainly has to be one of the best of all time,” Shula said during the video. “All you got to do is look at his accomplishments. You go and look at Otto’s record, and all he ever did was win championships. And how else do you judge a quarterback. Every season that he lined up the Browns were in the championship game.
“It’s hard to pick anyone any better.”
Running back Jim Brown was ranked No. 2 on the list, behind 49ers receiver Jerry Rice, but Mike Brown gives Graham the edge in Browns history.
“He was the Browns’ greatest player,” Mike Brown said. “Those who were fortunate to see their history the way I did, which is most of it, the player who is at the top of the heap is Otto.
“Jim Brown was a great player, but he was a running back. Otto was a great player and he was a quarterback. It’s just that the quarterback in NFL football is the position that matters most.”
Which is why Brady gets all the love he does.
Brady is a three-time MVP who’s completed 64 percent for 581 touchdowns, 191 interceptions and a 97.3 passer rating. He had to play more games in a season, beat more teams (the NFL was 13 teams in 1950 and 32 in 2020) and win more playoff games than Graham did to earn a ring. At the most, Graham claimed a title with two postseason wins, while Brady has needed at least three, including four this season.
Terry Bradshaw and Joe Montana won four Super Bowls apiece, and Elway made it to five, winning two. Brady’s separated himself from everyone in the last three generations.
“He’s the player that they are seeing, the one they remember,” Brown said. “They didn’t see Otto. And Brady, let’s admit it, he’s special, too. You tend to give a little bit more credit to the ones who are recent.”
Just don’t forget Graham.
“I’m glad you’re onto this as a topic because Cleveland should be proud of Otto,” Brown said. “He was their player and I wish more of them had had the chance to see him play that I had. He deserves it.”
This is one of Otto Graham's earliest cards, it's ridiculously rare, a 1950 Bread For Health. This is on ebay right now for $6,900.
Check this bad boy out, a 1950 Bowman Otto Graham rookie card in mint condition.
Here is the first known collectible item of Otto Graham, it is a 1946 Sears Roebuck handout schedule of some sort.
An early 1940s premium of Otto Graham.
A 1948 exhibit card of Otto Graham.
I love this set, a 1955 Topps All-American Otto Graham in mint condition.
A photo of Otto Graham running the ball.
Otto Graham and Paul Brown.
Otto Graham running, look at his shoes, are those Converse Chuck Taylor?
A vicious stiff arm from Otto Graham.
Otto Graham takes a breather.
Graham on the run from the Eagles.
Otto Graham in his prime.
Thr great Otto Graham statue.
Different eras, different rules, apples to oranges..... Joe knows.
It's a very fascinating thing to study, the different eras, I can't get enough of it. I love that photo of a blood soaked Y.A. Tittle on his knees.
If you want a little taste of what smash mouth football was like back in the 60s, here's a photo of a Packers player, notice the grass stuck in his helmet and his missing teeth.
No doubt he was great for his era. One has to remember during the 40's and 50's that there were only 10 to 12 teams for the most part.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I'm not sure what you're point is....but in the 1940-50 era the population of the United States was 1/3 of what it is today. So....11 teams x 3 (split the difference between 10 and 12) equals 33 teams. So.....basically same amount of teams per population. 1940-2022. What am I missing?
Graham played 10 pro seasons and led his team to 10 championship games, winning seven. In 1955, his 10th season, he was the highest-paid player in the league. He earned $25,000.
That there was only 10 teams. Much easier to get to a championship game when you only have to beat out 8 teams instead of 30. Same can be said about the NHL as well for example. When Montreal was racking up Stanley Cups there were only 5 other teams.
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Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
A few things:
1) Joe didn't change his position on Brady. He just mentioned Graham as a guy that's often overlooked and then supported his case by mangling the stats regarding Graham.
2) There weren't 10-12 teams when Graham was playing. There roughly 20, give or take, since there were two leagues. In Graham's AAFC days, there were either 8 teams (for 3 of his titles) or 7 teams (1 title).
3) If you want to know how hard it is to compare eras, just look at the pictures of Graham's throwing motion. It barely resembles modern quarterbacks and would be ripped apart today for poor fundamentals.
4) Montreal has won 22 Stanley Cups under the current format of awarding it to the NHL champion that started in the 1920s. 10 of those 22 came AFTER the league expanded from 6 teams.
Montreal- Yes and 3 out of those 10 came with 12-14 teams I believe
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Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
“He had comparable success to Brady. They were the best of their eras. Football was different in the different eras. In Otto’s time, he was the best. In Brady’s time, arguably he is the best.”
This.
Great thread! I love all the pics. Thank you everyone and especially @doubledragon
In thirty years, if someone has surpassed Brady and he is asked about who the greatest is, I'm sure he will steer the conversation towards Montana.
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It is important to remember that Brady played and dominated in the last years before the current rules took hold (though I realize that is not the same era as Graham). The rules were changed so P. Manning could excel, and Brady still won the next SB.
The current hot QB Burrow wanted to be a QB after seeing Brady on this play, which I posted before. And I will re-iterate the important point. After this play Coach Belichick told Brady he would have a short career if he kept playing like that. But the point is that Brady is as tough as anyone.