Another 1909 S VDB for MarkW63 and others.
jesbroken
Posts: 10,164 ✭✭✭✭✭
What do you think about this counterfeit 09SVDB?
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
0
Comments
Nice counterfeit
What is the story behind this example?
"What do you think about this counterfeit 09SVDB?"
What makes you think it's a counterfeit?
Fair question.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
The seller says it is and is asking $29. for it. If it is, I can't see why. This is the reason I am asking. Don't get me wrong they could have used a fake photo of a real one for the sale. Just curious.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
The seller appears to be using a photo of a genuine coin to sell a fake.
"The seller says it is and is asking $29."
Seems like everything you need to know.
i'm sticking with very good counterfeit
What are you seeing that makes you say that?
Small things
I think the mint mark is just a tad too right of the 9 - that’s one
The D in VDB should angle up more from the base - that’s two
I don’t see any red flags, other than the seller’s comment.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
Looks like obverse from PCGS die #3 to me. Has the shallow valley 'N'. V.D.B. looks good. The pictures aren't very good however. The 'S' looks a little odd (could be lighting) but it is in the right place and has the right tilt for #3 die. This piece wouldn't be for me but I think it's genuine.
The photo the seller is using is of a genuine coin to sell a $29 copy or replica? A link to the auction would be helpful.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Mint mark #3
Appears the chip in upper loop may be there.
Type 1 shallow N
Slant on center bar of B
Dot between D & B centered
When the PM function is fixed, someone send me a link to the op listing.
@jesbroken What site is it listed on?
The pictures sure do look like a real one - who knows what the seller will send you though - any word of "Coin pictured is the exact one you will receive"? I've never heard of someone selling a real one as a counterfeit -
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
http://www.varietyvista.com/01a LC Doubled Dies Vol 1/Obverse Design Varieties.htm
https://images.pcgs.com/CoinFacts/38459094_55625076_2200.jpg
from above
Good grief some of these are getting very hard to tell!
The letters in liberty seems to be to even across both the top and the bottom (questionable)
The mint mark font is to loopy at the top & bottom, the center section is at to much of an angle.
To me the center bar of the "B" in the designer's initials appears to straight.
The die chip in the upper loop of the mint mark has been mentioned, but if what I'm seeing is the die chip its in the upper portion of the loop, not the lower left (questionable)
I guess this puts me on the counterfeit side of the fence
Thanks for the invite!
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
They are getting scarier and scarier. I don't think it will be long before it will take a truly professional to tell if then.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
It's too easy to start over analyzing with small features, many of the smaller features may change with strike or die erosion and photos can play a big part in the equation.
I posted this in another thread but I will post it here too.
.
.
On 12-21-21 I went and talked to a counterfeit & alteration expert about the 1909 svdb.
I don't know if he is "the best" expert nationwide but I know he is "one of the best" nationwide. I don't know every expert
He has taught counterfeit & alteration classes for the ANA & the US Government and I trust him.
I asked him how he authenticates a 1909 svdb.
He said "I start with the mint mark if it's not in one of the 4 known positions it's not genuine, I stop there"
Next he said "I check for the die chip in the upper loop of the S, if it's not there it's not genuine"
Next was "I look at the crossbar of the B it should be slanted"
The last thing was "I check the location of the dots in VDB but sometimes they may be grease filled or have die erosion and even if the dots aren't there the other things will be there"
I asked "Is that it?"
He said "Yes"
I asked about the shallow N on the reverse and he said "I only use that when dealing with a proof"
I asked "Why not?"
He said "In 30+ years of doing this I have never seen a genuine coin that will pass all of the things I just told you and there is no need to look at anything else"
I'll admit I was a bit disappointed he doesn't use the N for another check point for authentication.
I asked "If there is another point you can check why wouldn't you use it?"
He said "Like I just told you, I have never seen one that can pass the things I mentioned in over 30 years so there is no need"
He also said "I know what you are talking about with the N but I have never done the research myself to know for sure the second design was not used on an svdb"
In closing he also said "Most of the time the mint mark will tell you all you need to know"
Anyone have the link for the OP listing?
That’s sound advice when viewing the coin in hand.
When looking at eBay photos or photos from collectors asking for authentication opinions many of the diagnostics may be too small or out of focus to make a determination.
The N is a larger, more visible target and a great way to eliminate fakes from the real thing.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
https://www.etsy.com/listing/1008313550/rare-antique-usa-united-states-1909-s?click_key=f96aaa8323c6d9e3634eddb1a29a732e1a2213a8:1008313550&click_sum=41c6083e&ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=1909+s+vdb+lincoln+cent&ref=sr_gallery-1-7&organic_search_click=1&frs=1
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
I just Googled 1909 S VDB and this image came up from NGC.
It would appear they hijacked an image of a genuine coin, this is the reverse of the OP coin.
The obverse photo doesn't match so they must have found another image for that.
I kind of thought that was the case, as it looked genuine to me.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
I guess the "D" is the right shape
https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-explorer/united-states/cents/lincoln-cents-wheat-reverse-1909-1958/12426/1909-s-vdb-1c-ms/
Nice work Vam!
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
I can't find the obverse image
This is from NGC
Not sure why looking for these failed.
http://www.varietyvista.com/01a LC Doubled Dies Vol 1/Obverse Design Varieties.htm
@MsMorrisine "I can't find the obverse image"
What does it matter?
It's clear the seller is selling a replica, they state that and the price would indicate that also.
They hijacked an image of the reverse from the web, it only stands to reason they hijacked they obverse too.
They could have hijacked a wrong obverse image that was a counterfeit, 09S no VDB or who knows. It looks genuine
Either way what is shown is not what you would get in the mail.
Bottom line: Genuine photos hijacked to sell a counterfeit coin.
just doing a post mortem as to how I failed