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Anyone have photos hairline scratches or other issues caused by cleaning?

Herb_THerb_T Posts: 1,748 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited January 9, 2022 12:59PM in U.S. Coin Forum

Trying to get some photo reference material together for coins that would get a details grade as a result of cleaning. Hairline scratches or other surface issues from cleaning.

Comments

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,173 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Herb_T said:
    Trying to get some photo reference material together for coins that would get a details grade as a result of cleaning. Hairline cracks or other surface issues from cleaning.

    I think you mean hairline scratches. Cleaning doesn't cause hairline cracks.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • MetroDMetroD Posts: 2,210 ✭✭✭✭✭

    PCGS video about "details" grade 92 - cleaning.

  • Che_GrapesChe_Grapes Posts: 1,884 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This coin is was graded details cleaned just because of this one spot where someone apparently tried to scrub away some debris - it’s unfortunate, because without that this is easily a 65 1921 peace and worth 2k. As it is - details cleaned and worth ~300 maybe

  • Che_GrapesChe_Grapes Posts: 1,884 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If you want better pics I can provide some. What I’ve learned over the years is that hairlines differ from polishing lines by the convex versus concave attribute - in other words hairline scratches are cuts into the coin and form valleys, while polishing lines protrude upward from the surface and form little ridges.
    Polishing lines are desirable - hairlines are utter ruin to any coin...

  • Che_GrapesChe_Grapes Posts: 1,884 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here is the whole coin - can’t even see them in this picture. I even had experts look at it and couldn’t see them. But under the right lighting they are there - PCGS found them!!
    It came back UNC details cleaned - broke my heart

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,563 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2022 2:31PM

    @Che_Grapes said:

    Here is the whole coin - can’t even see them in this picture. I even had experts look at it and couldn’t see them. But under the right lighting they are there - PCGS found them!!
    It came back UNC details cleaned - broke my heart

    To me, the coin doesn’t look close to “easily a 65” and contrary to another post of yours, die polishing lines aren’t typically considered to be “desirable”.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • Herb_THerb_T Posts: 1,748 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What do you think of this coin? Cleaned?

  • Che_GrapesChe_Grapes Posts: 1,884 ✭✭✭✭✭

    To me, the coin doesn’t look close to “easily a 65” and contrary to another post of yours, die polishing lines aren’t typically considered to be “desirable”.

    Well sir I have shown this coin at many shows to several experts and they have said - with the coin in hand - that without the hairlines it would grade 64 or 65.
    But - as you seem so knowledgeable regarding a coin you’ve never seen in person I commend you.
    And yes - for certain VAMs the polishing lines are indeed desirable!!!
    VAM 1H or even 1F it is the polishing lines that determine these die pairs.

    There is always a wise guy -
    Good for you!!

  • MWallaceMWallace Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Just about every 19th century proof has hairlines, yet they straight grade. You can find them on dealer's websites and eBay.

  • jedmjedm Posts: 3,026 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If you go to ebay you'll see hundreds or thousands of photos of cleaned coins. Many examples will be in slabs from reputable grading companies which tend to show, upon inspection, the reason why they received the designation.

  • CryptoCrypto Posts: 3,710 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2022 3:23PM

    @Che_Grapes said:

    To me, the coin doesn’t look close to “easily a 65” and contrary to another post of yours, die polishing lines aren’t typically considered to be “desirable”.

    Well sir I have shown this coin at many shows to several experts and they have said - with the coin in hand - that without the hairlines it would grade 64 or 65.
    But - as you seem so knowledgeable regarding a coin you’ve never seen in person I commend you.
    And yes - for certain VAMs the polishing lines are indeed desirable!!!
    VAM 1H or even 1F it is the polishing lines that determine these die pairs.

    There is always a wise guy -
    Good for you!!

    Those dealers were being nice, the luster, neck dings and rub prevent a gem grade or anything close. Market 62 but it should be noted that it didn’t grade that high in real life let alone in pictures.

    Also the peace vams aren’t desirable because of die polish, the are desirable despite their die polish because they are made from former proof dies. Not mentioning there is not much demand for peace vams let alone an active two way market which speaks to desirability

    Mfeld maybe dry and blunt but he is right most of the time. Read more, post less

  • fathomfathom Posts: 1,711 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here is a stained chemical treatment and faint hairlines piece.

    Very strong device detail though and still some eye appeal, a decent scarce coin in the higher grades.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,563 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Herb_T said:
    What do you think of this coin? Cleaned?

    The coin looks to have been cleaned, though I can’t tell from the images whether it might still straight grade.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 33,144 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @Herb_T said:
    What do you think of this coin? Cleaned?

    The coin looks to have been cleaned, though I can’t tell from the images whether it might still straight grade.

    Hasn’t it seen chemical warfare and lost?

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,563 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MsMorrisine said:

    @MFeld said:

    @Herb_T said:
    What do you think of this coin? Cleaned?

    The coin looks to have been cleaned, though I can’t tell from the images whether it might still straight grade.

    Hasn’t it seen chemical warfare and lost?

    It appears so.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • Herb_THerb_T Posts: 1,748 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @MsMorrisine said:

    @MFeld said:

    @Herb_T said:
    What do you think of this coin? Cleaned?

    The coin looks to have been cleaned, though I can’t tell from the images whether it might still straight grade.

    Hasn’t it seen chemical warfare and lost?

    It appears so.

    It graded AU50…..

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 33,144 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Herb_T said:

    @MFeld said:

    @MsMorrisine said:

    @MFeld said:

    @Herb_T said:
    What do you think of this coin? Cleaned?

    The coin looks to have been cleaned, though I can’t tell from the images whether it might still straight grade.

    Hasn’t it seen chemical warfare and lost?

    It appears so.

    It graded AU50…..

    Older coins can straight grade with problems where newer ones wouldn’t. - “market acceptable”

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,563 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Herb_T said:

    @MFeld said:

    @MsMorrisine said:

    @MFeld said:

    @Herb_T said:
    What do you think of this coin? Cleaned?

    The coin looks to have been cleaned, though I can’t tell from the images whether it might still straight grade.

    Hasn’t it seen chemical warfare and lost?

    It appears so.

    It graded AU50…..

    That’s not a surprise. As I commented previously, “The coin looks to have been cleaned, though I can’t tell from the images whether it might still straight grade.” Apparently, it was felt that there weren’t severe enough issues to merit a details-grade.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • shorecollshorecoll Posts: 5,445 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The 39-O looks very busy on the neck, that's what drew my eye re cleaning.

    ANA-LM, NBS, EAC
  • airplanenutairplanenut Posts: 22,162 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @Che_Grapes said:

    To me, the coin doesn’t look close to “easily a 65” and contrary to another post of yours, die polishing lines aren’t typically considered to be “desirable”.

    Well sir I have shown this coin at many shows to several experts and they have said - with the coin in hand - that without the hairlines it would grade 64 or 65.
    But - as you seem so knowledgeable regarding a coin you’ve never seen in person I commend you.
    And yes - for certain VAMs the polishing lines are indeed desirable!!!
    VAM 1H or even 1F it is the polishing lines that determine these die pairs.

    There is always a wise guy -
    Good for you!!

    Of course, I can only go by the obverse photo you posted. It shows flaws on the face, neck and fields, as well as subdued luster. And now, after initially saying the coin was easily a 65 without the hairlines, you state that several experts said it would grade 64 or 65 without the hairlines. That sounds like easily a 64, not easily a 65.😉

    Sure, die polish lines can be desirable in some cases, but that’s very different from your blanket statement “Polishing lines are desirable”. Perhaps I’m not a wise guy, but just care more about accuracy than you do.

    I have a Franklin half dollar with heavy die polish that I bought because I wanted an example of die polish. And if you extrapolate from just that one lone purchase by me to all purchases by all buyers, you’ll see that die polish lines are, indeed, always desirable. I love proving you wrong.

    JK Coin Photography - eBay Consignments | High Quality Photos | LOW Prices | 20% of Consignment Proceeds Go to Pancreatic Cancer Research
  • OmegaraptorOmegaraptor Posts: 540 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2022 3:39PM


    Here’s a real unfortunate one, and one I use as an example. This 1896-O Barber Half Dollar is a semi-key that gets truly tough with any level of detail higher than this and problem free. This would be an $80 coin with original surfaces. Unfortunately, because of harsh cleaning, the coin is only worth about $20.

    "You can't get just one gun." "You can't get just one tattoo." "You can't get just one 1796 Draped Bust Large Cent."

  • Herb_THerb_T Posts: 1,748 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Omegaraptor said:

    Here’s a real unfortunate one, and one I use as an example. This 1896-O Barber Half Dollar is a semi-key that gets truly tough with any level of detail higher than this and problem free. This would be an $80 coin with original surfaces. Unfortunately, because of harsh cleaning, the coin is only worth about $20.

    I can see that one! 😎

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,563 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Omegaraptor said:

    Here’s a real unfortunate one, and one I use as an example. This 1896-O Barber Half Dollar is a semi-key that gets truly tough with any level of detail higher than this and problem free. This would be an $80-$100 coin with original surfaces. Unfortunately, because of harsh cleaning, the coin is only worth about $20.

    That’s an excellent example of a coin which is obviously cleaned, even if you can’t see patches of hairlines. The overall sheen is unnatural and easily indicative of a cleaning.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • PapiNEPapiNE Posts: 315 ✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2022 4:03PM

    Cleaned/Scratches

    USAF veteran 1984-2005

  • CoinCrazyPACoinCrazyPA Posts: 2,899 ✭✭✭✭

    @scotty4449 said:
    Here is a franklin that looked great at the auction house. When I got it home and compared it to my other Franklins I could tell the luster was impaired. When tilted just right to the light I could see the hairlines.

    Nice example

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  • ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 6,511 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Same coin, different views. Super gemmy looking until the light is just right.

    Collector, occasional seller

  • Herb_THerb_T Posts: 1,748 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ChrisH821 said:
    Same coin, different views. Super gemmy looking until the light is just right.

    Yikes!

  • Herb_THerb_T Posts: 1,748 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @scotty4449 said:
    Here is a franklin that looked great at the auction house. When I got it home and compared it to my other Franklins I could tell the luster was impaired. When tilted just right to the light I could see the hairlines.

    I can see those hairline scratches. We’re you able to return it to the auction house?

  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,797 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2022 5:55AM

    Here's a coin that I am 100% certain was cleaned improperly. I know, because I'm the dolt who did it.

    When I lived in France in the 1990s I carried an Ike as a pocket piece. I eventually ran into a French coin collector who admired it and he eventually sold me one of these. It was originally a nice proof coin with mirror surfaces. When I got back to the states I forgot about it until sometime many years later. When I happened upon it, I tried to remove it from its PVC flip and discovered that it was covered with green sticky slime stuff.

    At the time, I knew nothing about coins and the importance of original surfaces. I concluded (possibly correctly) that the coin was already ruined. I attempted to remove the gunk with soap and water to no avail. I then set about harshly rubbing all the gunk off with a cloth, figuring that at least a non-sticky coin was better than a gooey, green one.

    This coin shows all the classic hallmarks of harsh cleaning. The once-mirrored fields show heavy, multi-directional hairlines. Protected areas (inside the letters and devices) show hints of original surfaces This results in a "ghosting" effect around the devices.

    image

  • BarberianBarberian Posts: 3,597 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ChrisH821 said:
    Same coin, different views. Super gemmy looking until the light is just right.

    It looks cleaned and whizzed to me based upon the surface metal abrasion-like luster. Am I correct on this diagnosis?

    3 rim nicks away from Good
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,563 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Barberian said:

    @ChrisH821 said:
    Same coin, different views. Super gemmy looking until the light is just right.

    It looks cleaned and whizzed to me based upon the surface metal abrasion-like luster. Am I correct on this diagnosis?

    It looks like a possible wheel mark to me.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • jayPemjayPem Posts: 4,080 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Herb_T said:
    What do you think of this coin? Cleaned?

    Herb, this could indeed be a pretty nice coin that's just not photographed well, but pretty nice and exciting original surfaces are not really the same thing...🤔

    The 39 o has seen alot of great threads here over the years, concerning what is a good original look vs the many that are maybe market acceptable but essentially processed and ugly.
    TomB usually provides the most valuable insight into this particular series, but he seems absent lately..

  • scotty4449scotty4449 Posts: 714 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Herb_T said:

    I can see those hairline scratches. We’re you able to return it to the auction house?

    Nope, I had to eat the cost. Worst part was it was a full set, and around 75% of the coins would be ungradable because of hairlines. Seems like the previous owner liked to wipe them down every once in a while. I still have them, they are otherwise a great looking set. It's a shame because I think they all would have been around 65/66.

  • nwcoastnwcoast Posts: 2,865 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2022 7:37PM

    Here’s a painful example.
    From my personal school of hard knocks, and not in the so distant of past either.
    The first photos are the sellers photos. The coin looks like AU with some significant abrasion but I took a gamble thinking it may not be too bad.
    The second photos are some I took. Heavy polishing and harsh abrasion is very evident in these pictures.
    I believe that the sellers photos may have used digital manipulation and/or very diffuse lighting to eliminate the hairlines and harsher abrasions.
    Buyer beware!

    Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014

  • Herb_THerb_T Posts: 1,748 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I went back and was able to get some other closeups. At this magnification do you see hairline scratches?

  • Herb_THerb_T Posts: 1,748 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2022 7:46PM

    I played with the photo settings, this coin looks very busy on the surfaces…..

  • ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 6,511 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @Barberian said:

    @ChrisH821 said:
    Same coin, different views. Super gemmy looking until the light is just right.

    It looks cleaned and whizzed to me based upon the surface metal abrasion-like luster. Am I correct on this diagnosis?

    It looks like a possible wheel mark to me.

    Definitely not whizzed.
    PCGS called it cleaned but I suppose it could be a wheelmark. Either way they are surface hairlines that I missed before sending it with an order.

    Collector, occasional seller

  • jayPemjayPem Posts: 4,080 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Not seeing hairlines from cleaning necessarily, just the usual wear and tear..
    Looks more like at least one thorough dipping and maybe more..
    Does dipping =cleaning?
    I say yes, many others say no..
    TPG's included.

  • airplanenutairplanenut Posts: 22,162 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Herb_T said:
    I played with the photo settings, this coin looks very busy on the surfaces…..

    Coins pick up lots of chatter in circulation. Whether or not it's cleaned AND has hairlines to prove it can't be discerned from your images. Even if the hairlines exist, lighting (in many cases) can mask it, intentionally or not. Those photos aren't lit in a way to make an educated guess.

    JK Coin Photography - eBay Consignments | High Quality Photos | LOW Prices | 20% of Consignment Proceeds Go to Pancreatic Cancer Research
  • Herb_THerb_T Posts: 1,748 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2022 8:37PM

    Would any of you buy that coin or would you pass? 1939-O coins are pricey……

  • Pnies20Pnies20 Posts: 2,315 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It looks Like a harsh dip rather than a harsh wipe which let it straight Grade. Surfaces are not natural but there doesn’t seem to be a ton of uniform hairlining.

    A wise collector told me, if you’re unsure if you’re gonna like it while Bidding, you’re going to be unsure if you like it once You get it.

    BHNC #248 … 130 and counting.

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 33,144 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I’m not knowledgeable with 1839-O half dollars…. Well circulated.

    What else is out there instead? Dunno.

    I’d try for something looking more original, but don’t know if it exists.

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • jayPemjayPem Posts: 4,080 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Herb_T said:
    Would any of you buy that coin or would you pass? 1939-O coins are pricey……

    I would definitely not.

  • fathomfathom Posts: 1,711 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Herb_T said:
    Would any of you buy that coin or would you pass? 1939-O coins are pricey……

    Personally, I would pass. My opinion is that it has a washed out look of a previous cleaning that has not aged well.

    This is again a case of most coins of that type have been at least wiped at one time. I have no problem with the straight grade, only if the coin has been harshly cleaned, should it be in a details holder. In this case, the photos are not good enough to give me purchase confidence IMO.

  • OnastoneOnastone Posts: 3,965 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Besides hairline scratches, cleaned coins have a certain dullness, cleaner but a certain lack of luster.

  • coastaljerseyguycoastaljerseyguy Posts: 1,367 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Che_Grapes said:

    Here is the whole coin - can’t even see them in this picture. I even had experts look at it and couldn’t see them. But under the right lighting they are there - PCGS found them!!
    It came back UNC details cleaned - broke my heart

    I'm not sure just that little patch of wiping caused the details grade. Looking at the photo, the darker shade around Liberty, motto, the date, etc looks like a heavy dipping occurred in the past and the dark toning/tarnish slightly ate into the coin. The wiping was just additional abuse the coin suffered.

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