Are PCGS TrueView Images in Public Domain
gschwernk
Posts: 366 ✭✭✭✭✭
Can PCGS TrueView Images be copied from net and be used on a website. I am assuming the website owner does not own the coin.
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I’m not sure how your going to prevent it. True views are posted all the time. Maybe in a publishing situation That is a very good question. We’ll see 😉
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
No, they are not technically public domain.
PCGS commentary. “You are free to use Trueview images however you like.”
Stack's Bowers plays it safe and states:
"Image with the PCGS TrueView logo is obtained from and is subject to a license agreement with Collectors Universe, Inc. and its divisions PCGS and PSA."
This seems to indicate that PCGS grants the owner of the coin the right to display the image. I don't believe this would give me the right to display an image of a Hanson coin on a website without PCGS license agreement.
Interesting point.
Looking forward to seeing what others have to say.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
It sounds like they're okay with personal use of the images. I imagine it's possible a conflict might arise if one were to attempt to use images commercially, like creating and retailing posters or calendars or such.
They are not in the public domain and they are not okay to use in all instances.
That being said, I've seen TrueViews used extensively in many places without issue. The one place where I have seen an issue is if you make a reference site album of sorts. This is where I think a site like Stack's Bowers needs permission and sites that don't get permission may be forced to shut down, like the one a forum member made. I think the other issue with with the forum member website is that the TrueViews were modified to change their background color, which generally isn't acceptable, though I have seen a prominent dealer brighten TrueViews, both on his website and Registry Sets.
If it's my coin then why don't I own the rights? Did you waive any rights when submitting it? If not, I'll see PCGS in court. You have to pay me to use an image of MY coin on YOUR website. Business is business, baby.
You own the item, but the photographer owns the photo. For TPGs, the photographer generally assigns ownership to their employer, CU in this case.
If you want to own the rights to the photo, you need to make arrangements with the photo's owner, but I doubt they would do this.
If you don't want CU to own the rights to photos of coins you own, you can request that they do not photograph it. Stewart Blay @STEWARTBLAYNUMIS has mentioned that he makes this request for his coin submissions, so you can inquire with him if you want to know more.
This is a very similar situation to wedding photography. The couple is the subject of the photos, but the photos are owned by the photographer.
When you look at your PCGS Trueview images, do they have your name/company on the coin photos or PCGS company name? You waived your right when submitting. The photo belongs to PCGS.
But they are not in the public domain. The owner having the right to use the coin image is not the same as anyone else, especially if the use is commercial.
Try reading contracts before you sign them.
Did you know that most photographers hold the rights to the wedding photos that they took? You might not own your wedding photos. Lol
You can sue anyone, or everyone, but you're going to lose.
Yep, that is exceptionally poorly written as it doesn't define any of the terms. It doesn't mention ownership if the coin. Any way you like does not explicitly declaim commercial use.
About the only thing you clearly can't do is sell the rights to somebody. But they can come to PCGS and download it themselves and then use it anyway they like...
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
I didn't sign any contracts. But if the gold shield means I've lost the right to the image of this coin, then I won't buy any coins with a gold shield on them. Legal problem solved!
You did sign a contract. It's on the submission form, which you sign.
You are NOT looking at the legalese. The quoted section is simply an FAQ on the site. If you look at the submission form under "terms and conditions" #11 says (emphasis added by me):
ing, including, but not limited to, data relating to the identity, minting, condition and grade of the coin
(the “Data”); and (ii) may take, or have taken, one or more digital or other types of photographs, images or
reproductions of each such coin (collectively, the “Images”). In consideration for the grading services being
provided by PCGS, Customer, on behalf of itself and any third party for whom Customer may be acting, hereby
authorizes PCGS (i) to compile and maintain such Data with respect to each coin submitted hereunder for
grading; and (ii ) to take, or cause to be taken, one or more Images of each such coin, and further agrees that
PCGS will be the owner of such Data and all such Images and that PCGS may use and exploit such Data and the
Images for commercial and any other purposes, as PCGS in its sole discretion deems appropriate, including,
but not limited to, the publication and republication or reproduction in or on any media, of such Data and Images. Without limiting the generality of the foregoing, Customer, on behalf of itself and any third party for whom
Customer may be acting with respect to this agreement, unconditionally and irrevocably transfers, conveys
and assigns to PCGS any and all current and any hereafter acquired rights, title and interests (including,
without limitation, rights in copyright, patent, trade secret and trademark) that Customer or any such third
party may have in or to the Data and the Images (on whatever media or in whatever form such Images may
be reproduced or published).
12. If any coins are being submitted
You signed this:
1 AUTHORIZED SIGNATURE / TERMS & CONDITIONS
TERMS AND CONDITIONS: I HAVE READ AND AGREE TO THE PCGS GRADING TERMS AND CONDITIONS ON THE BACK OF THIS FORM AND I ACCEPT FULL RESPONSIBILITY FOR
COMPLETELY AND ACCURATELY FILLING OUT THE SUBMISSION FORM. IF COINS ARE SUBMITTED FOR SERVICES FOR WHICH THEY DO NOT QUALIFY, SIGNATURE BELOW
AUTHORIZES PCGS TO CORRECT THE ORDER AND CHARGE ANY ADDITIONAL GRADING, GUARANTEE PREMIUM, HANDLING AND SHIPPING FEES THAT MAY APPLY.
The terms and conditions (#11) include assignment of all image rights to PCGS.
**e, or cause to be taken, one or more Images of each such coin, and further agrees that
PCGS will be the owner of such Data and all such Images and that PCGS may use and exploit such Data and the
Images for commercial and any other purposes, as PCGS in its sole discretion deems appropriate, including,
but not limited to, the publication and republication or reproduction in or on any media, of such Data and Images. Without limiting the generality of the foregoing, Customer, on behalf of itself and any third party for whom
Customer may be acting with respect to this agreement, unconditionally and irrevocably transfers, conveys
and assigns to PCGS any and all current and any hereafter acquired rights, title and interests (including,
without limitation, rights in copyright, patent, trade secret and trademark) that Customer or any such third
party may have in or to the Data and the Images (on whatever media or in whatever form such Images may
be reproduced or published). **
I'm not submitting coins to PCGS. I'm buying coins other people have sent to PCGS. So it's good to know what that gold shield on the front really means. Looking at eBay auctions you'd think it made th coin extra special when actually it means you don't own the image of it.
If you are only buying the coin, why would you assume you own the photo at all??? If you buy a suit at Goodwill, would you assume you own any picture taken of that suit by the prior owner?
If you bought a raw coin from me on eBay, would you assume you also own the photos I took of the coin when I listed it on eBay?
I spent much of my working life as a professional photographer and I can confirm that in most cases, the the rights for the photo taken, belong to the photographer. Exceptions often made are for those working in the capacity of “staff photographer”, in which case, the photo rights are retained by the employer.
Photos taken in public, or of private property are another matter.
It’s not simple.
What IS a simple observation though is that THE INTERNET, and digital imaging and manipulation have made for a MESS of piracy, rip offs, and sometimes even blatantly shameless disregard for photographers works without regard to copyright law and even the common courtesy of a photo credit in some cases.
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
@crito_is_baaack Wouldn’t make much sense to run a photography business if you don’t own the photos you take, you could never promote your own work.
If you can’t understand that I can’t help you
I didn't know PCGS was running a photography business. I thought they were running a coin grading business. In any case, to me a gold shield on the front is like buying property after the previous owner sold the mining rights: it makes the coin less desirable to me, not more so.
Nobody's stopping you from photographing your coin yourself, you know. Then you can do whatever you want with the image.
Buy the coin, not the image. Then Make your own images of the coin.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
Take a photo of it and you own the photo. Whoever takes the photo, owns the photo unless as a photographer you sign those rights away!
Gold Shield is a plus to me.
TrueViews aren’t limited to Gold Shield. A great percentage of TrueViews are of coins in Regular PCGS slabs.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
Just wondering, using the wedding photos as an example, if I take a picture of one of the wedding photos do I own it then since I took the picture or does it still belong to the photographer that took the original picture?
Mr_Spud
oh, no! A new motto.
It would be cheaper to buy the image not the coin.
I would imagine that falls under the "fair use" doctrine. For personal use, no problem. For commercial use...
Can I, for example, go to a gallery and take photos of the photos and create my own commercial book using my photos? Absolutely not. Do I need gallery permission to post my photos on Facebook? Probably not.
That was my question? What does the gold shield have to do with anything as far as the tru-views. Also, pcgs is very much in the photography business. Have you seen Ngc’s tru-views, no? They are not in the photopraphy business. Welcome and listen to some of these folks they are very knowledgeable. 😉
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
The gold shields now come with tru-views. That's the only connection.
This is the first time I've ever heard anyone think they were buying the photograph. I suppose the destroy all copies when they sell the coin. They should probably charge Heritage or Stack's for the Truview continuing to reside in their archives.{end sarcasm}
I don't see what the issue is. They permit personal use and you can use it to sell the coin. What else do you want?
"Technically" the photographer that took the original photo is the only one who can duplicate it. If you want a copy you need to pay them to make a copy for you, You are not allowed to copy/reproduce/duplicate by any means. The photo you took is your property but it could get you sued and be used as evidence against you or you may need to agree to destroy it to prevent further litigation.
I don't know how the wedding photographer would find out about it or if it would be worth it for them to pursue legally.
Disclaimer: Free legal advise on the internet is worth exactly what you paid.
Ok, that makes sense. But what if a wedding photographer takes a picture of a Native American husband and wife. According to the following paper,
Native Americans retain ownership of any images made or taken of them. I believe it has something to do with the old belief that Native Americans didn’t used to like having their picture taken because the photographer could take ownership of their soul
https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1100&context=nebanthro
Come to think of it, who owns a TrueView of a Buffalo nickel that contains an image of a Native American if the above paper is accurate? It’s definately an image depicting a Native American
Mr_Spud
I practice IP law, including copyright and trademark. The answer to your question is actually quite complicated. However to make it easy to understand - any design of a US coin belongs to the US Mint and hence the US government. However, the government rarely enforces their IP rights, except in certain situations. Mostly, they get upset when people are using the various seals of different offices...
https://law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/713
As for private mint coins, those designs belong to the designer and/or company who produced the medal/coin. They may not like the use of their design without a license agreement and payment.
PCGS owns the copyright. It has a liberal public use policy listed online. This is not the same as being in the public domain.
If the photographer is paid to take the photos, they should not own the rights to them. That always seemed bonkers to me. And yes our wedding photog tried to pull this also until we threatened to walk.
I’m paying you for the service, I get the result. Imagine your home builder saying “sure, you can USE it, but…”
Oy
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
Vey
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
Very interesting. I wonder if PCGS works with all the public and private mints around the world to get license rights to show them in TrueViews and CoinFacts.
Here's a design owned by Dan Carr @dcarr that PCGS photographed:
Here's one from McDonald's:
Except as @jmlanzaf posted, the t&c (contract) doesn't say the same thing.
The large print giveth and the fine print taketh away.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
It always does, doesn't it?
People are trying too hard here. If you want to use TrueViews to make a calendar to hang on your coin room wall or to post in your eBay listing when you're selling the coins, nobody is going to care. If, on the other hand, you are putting TrueViews in the book you're publishing or the posters you're selling on your website, you just might hear from somebody at PCGS about it.
CU/PCGS would want to have a liberal stance on this because it is in the best interest of their business and their brand. Simple enough. I might have reason to use some of their images and would request their permission in advance of course, as I did from auction companies. And while I am no lawyer, I would suspect part of the contract here is protecting the other direction. When you pay for a TrueView (many do predate the gold shield service), CU would want the content to be broadly available to them as well. The problems generally would come in if reuse of the images either would harm the brand or be used in a way that competes with it. That is not a legal view, just the practical business and marketing one.
Someone hasn't read the grading terms and conditions.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
I dont think any of the private mints or @dcarr cares about non-monetary uses such as photographs.
However, if someone took a @dcarr design and made it their corporate logo and used it for advertising products - coins or non-coins, I am sure he would want to be paid for such uses. Or if someone starting making silver rounds and "borrowed" his design for the obverse and then added a different reverse from a US Mint coin.
As for the McDonalds Big Mac coin, Im sure @dcarr lawyers properly licensed the McDonald's logo and the TM "BigMac" to make that coin.
I produced the 2007 silver 100 Ameros coin pictured. But I did not design, manufacture, market, or sell the McDonalds token.
Wow.... Did not realize TruViews could create such a tempest. I just enjoy them. Post them if you got them.
Cheers, RickO