@craig44 said:
you are heading down a rabbit hole for which there is no exit if your defense of andro is that even though it is a banned substance, it wasnt as bad as ........
there will always be varying strength PED. the only standard we can use to judge is the banned list. it is the only standard that matters.
Well to you. I have no problem if you look at it that way.
I use my own judgement and think for myself. I always will.
Steroids were a huge problem in the MLB not because they were another form of trying to get an unfair advantage, but because they worked so well.
Did you ever read Canseco's books? He states a lot of claims that turned out to be absolutely correct. Guys that made a mockery of the record books should never get in the HOF. You can't keep EVERYBODY out.
Would you really keep Hank Aaron out? Please answer.
That is EXACTLY my point. there needs to be a standard and that standard should be followed. that standard is the rule book.
If we all use our own judgement, it falls to anarchy and there can never be consistency. your standard is different than my standard, which is different than everyone elses standard. Just because I have a "feeling" or make my own "judgements" should mean absolutely nothing in regards to the HOF. that is the trap so many HOF voters fall into.
throughout the history of baseball, there have been many rule changes. we dont penalize cy young because the mound was only 50 feet when he first started pitching. we dont penalize Mathewson because there was no rule against the spitball when he pitched. similarly, why are we penalizing guys who used PED when there was no rule against it?
we need to keep our own views and judgements out of it and see what was "permitted" in the context of players careers.
as for hank aaron. I would absolutely not keep him out of the hall of fame. wether he used one greenie or was munching on them in the outfield. the reason, he played pre 2011. there was no reason for him not to use them, unless he was worried about health sideaffects.
similarly, the guys who used PED in the 80's, 90's until the 2005 season i dont have a problem with either. same deal
I guess you would sentence a shopper who eats a single grape without paying to the same punishment as a serial killer. They're both criminals.
we are not talking about sentencing here. we are discussing the difference between cheating and not cheating. in the court of public opinion, which is basically what the HOF voters are, getting jabbed once with a steroid is just as damning as 1,000 times. at least in the mind of voters.
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We most certainly are, the post is about getting into the HOF. The sentence is you don't get in if guilty.
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gary sheffield said he only used one time, and that one time he didnt even know what he was using.
Sheffield had a lot more issues than just failing a test.
In my opinion, if a player used a substance that was not on the banned substance list, they are not cheating.
at all.
if it is on the banned substance list, they have cheated. even if it was only once.
He has admitted to using Androstenedione in the 1990s. He said he stopped in 1998. Andro was placed on the MLB joint drug program banned list at the end of the 2004 season.
assuming what Piazza said was true, and he did stop in 1998, Did he "cheat"
PS, he also admitted to using amphetamines. they were added to the banned list in 2011. Does that make him a double cheater?
That really encapsulates your overall point well, and so far nobody has really given a good answer for that question.
I was speaking of two hypothetical players in the example. one playing before the spitball ban, one playing after. one would have been playing within the rules, the other breaking the rules, though they were doing the exact same thing.
I am not a fan of "hypothetical players", so I probably didn't understand what the point was.
and yes, I have read every one of your posts. I do value what you contribute even if i may disagree.
>
I also value your contributions, we agree often and disagree as well. As it should be.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
To address the question of why so many consider Piazza a cheater:
It was widely known during his playing days that he had the severe backne that is symptomatic of steroid use.
No, he didn't have any wild jumps in performance once he was in the majors, at least nothing that can't be attributed to age/inexperience. He had 6 homers in 88 games one year in the minors and 29 the next but stuff like that is very normal. He had 1 homer in 21 games as a rookie in the majors and then 35 the next but stuff like that is pretty normal, too.
@Tabe said:
To address the question of why so many consider Piazza a cheater:
It was widely known during his playing days that he had the severe backne that is symptomatic of steroid use.
No, he didn't have any wild jumps in performance once he was in the majors, at least nothing that can't be attributed to age/inexperience. He had 6 homers in 88 games one year in the minors and 29 the next but stuff like that is very normal. He had 1 homer in 21 games as a rookie in the majors and then 35 the next but stuff like that is pretty normal, too.
I once had a big "zit" on my back and mentioned it to my mother in law who was a nurse.
She looked at it and said that's not a pimple,it;s a boil. Apparently they can spread and be hard to control especially on one's back.
If "backne" is the only evidence that Piazza used, I think we might just dismiss that.
If he was a user, he was right from the beginning as his numbers in the Majors don't appear to be unusual.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@Tabe said:
To address the question of why so many consider Piazza a cheater:
It was widely known during his playing days that he had the severe backne that is symptomatic of steroid use.
No, he didn't have any wild jumps in performance once he was in the majors, at least nothing that can't be attributed to age/inexperience. He had 6 homers in 88 games one year in the minors and 29 the next but stuff like that is very normal. He had 1 homer in 21 games as a rookie in the majors and then 35 the next but stuff like that is pretty normal, too.
I once had a big "zit" on my back and mentioned it to my mother in law who was a nurse.
She looked at it and said that's not a pimple,it;s a boil. Apparently they can spread and be hard to control especially on one's back.
If "backne" is the only evidence that Piazza used, I think we might just dismiss that.
If he was a user, he was right from the beginning as his numbers in the Majors don't appear to be unusual.
we have had many discussions throughout the years about using statistics as evidence for steroid use. the consensus has always been that statistical analysis is not a valid "proof" for steroid use. there have been many instances throughout the history of the game of outlying seasons or great seasons at late ages.
we also don't have to wonder if Piazza used steroids, he did. he admitted he did. it is only a matter of the timing of when he used. he used it before andro was put on the banned list so he didn't cheat
we also don't have to wonder if Piazza used steroids, he did. he admitted he did. it is only a matter of the timing of when he used. he used it before andro was put on the banned list so he didn't cheat
@Tabe said:
To address the question of why so many consider Piazza a cheater:
It was widely known during his playing days that he had the severe backne that is symptomatic of steroid use.
No, he didn't have any wild jumps in performance once he was in the majors, at least nothing that can't be attributed to age/inexperience. He had 6 homers in 88 games one year in the minors and 29 the next but stuff like that is very normal. He had 1 homer in 21 games as a rookie in the majors and then 35 the next but stuff like that is pretty normal, too.
One could say he had a pretty big performance jump from being the last pick in the draft talent to what he quickly became in MLB.
That is EXACTLY my point. there needs to be a standard and that standard should be followed. that standard is the rule book.
No. That's not the standard. The standard is being able to convince 3/4 of the voting members of the BBWAA you are worthy within a certain period or 3/4 of one of various poorly assembled committees presumably ever. Bonds is never going to achieve the first standard no matter what he did on or off the field. He probably will achieve the second someday.
Every time my stance starts to soften on Bonds I look at before and after pics. I think we can all agree he was the best at using steroids. World class.
Still a nay for me
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
He has admitted to using Androstenedione in the 1990s. He said he stopped in 1998. Andro was placed on the MLB joint drug program banned list at the end of the 2004 season.
assuming what Piazza said was true, and he did stop in 1998, Did he "cheat"
PS, he also admitted to using amphetamines. they were added to the banned list in 2011. Does that make him a double cheater?
That really encapsulates your overall point well, and so far nobody has really given a good answer for that question.
I think that the general silence around this question is particularly damning to many posters arguments. I think the refusal to answer is really their answer.
@thisistheshow said:
Can anyone come up with the names of current players who have a prescription for amphetamines. I'm sure some are on the record or discussed.
I think that is double super-secret information. I don't think the commissioner releases that information
@thisistheshow said:
Can anyone come up with the names of current players who have a prescription for amphetamines. I'm sure some are on the record or discussed.
I think that is double super-secret information. I don't think the commissioner releases that information
....
I just googled something like "mlb players ADHD" and the results are interesting. Didn't go through them. I've heard Trout's name before. One of those results is from 2012 and says 8% of the league. So either way I am sure it is rampant.
@thisistheshow said:
Can anyone come up with the names of current players who have a prescription for amphetamines. I'm sure some are on the record or discussed.
I think that is double super-secret information. I don't think the commissioner releases that information
....
I just googled something like "mlb players ADHD" and the results are interesting. Didn't go through them. I've heard Trout's name before. One of those results is from 2012 and says 8% of the league. So either way I am sure it is rampant.
I know chris davis did it. also, lars anderson has given interviews about how much Adderall helped him.
the trout rumors have been circulating for years. it will never ever be released by mlb if he had a script to use.
Comments
That is EXACTLY my point. there needs to be a standard and that standard should be followed. that standard is the rule book.
If we all use our own judgement, it falls to anarchy and there can never be consistency. your standard is different than my standard, which is different than everyone elses standard. Just because I have a "feeling" or make my own "judgements" should mean absolutely nothing in regards to the HOF. that is the trap so many HOF voters fall into.
throughout the history of baseball, there have been many rule changes. we dont penalize cy young because the mound was only 50 feet when he first started pitching. we dont penalize Mathewson because there was no rule against the spitball when he pitched. similarly, why are we penalizing guys who used PED when there was no rule against it?
we need to keep our own views and judgements out of it and see what was "permitted" in the context of players careers.
as for hank aaron. I would absolutely not keep him out of the hall of fame. wether he used one greenie or was munching on them in the outfield. the reason, he played pre 2011. there was no reason for him not to use them, unless he was worried about health sideaffects.
similarly, the guys who used PED in the 80's, 90's until the 2005 season i dont have a problem with either. same deal
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
In my opinion, if a player used a substance that was not on the banned substance list, they are not cheating.
at all.
if it is on the banned substance list, they have cheated. even if it was only once.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
by the way, Sheffield had a fantastic HOF worthy career. check out his numbers.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Sheffield has lots of problems. Great hitter though.
That really encapsulates your overall point well, and so far nobody has really given a good answer for that question.
>
I am not a fan of "hypothetical players", so I probably didn't understand what the point was.
>
I also value your contributions, we agree often and disagree as well. As it should be.
To address the question of why so many consider Piazza a cheater:
It was widely known during his playing days that he had the severe backne that is symptomatic of steroid use.
No, he didn't have any wild jumps in performance once he was in the majors, at least nothing that can't be attributed to age/inexperience. He had 6 homers in 88 games one year in the minors and 29 the next but stuff like that is very normal. He had 1 homer in 21 games as a rookie in the majors and then 35 the next but stuff like that is pretty normal, too.
I once had a big "zit" on my back and mentioned it to my mother in law who was a nurse.
She looked at it and said that's not a pimple,it;s a boil. Apparently they can spread and be hard to control especially on one's back.
If "backne" is the only evidence that Piazza used, I think we might just dismiss that.
If he was a user, he was right from the beginning as his numbers in the Majors don't appear to be unusual.
we have had many discussions throughout the years about using statistics as evidence for steroid use. the consensus has always been that statistical analysis is not a valid "proof" for steroid use. there have been many instances throughout the history of the game of outlying seasons or great seasons at late ages.
we also don't have to wonder if Piazza used steroids, he did. he admitted he did. it is only a matter of the timing of when he used. he used it before andro was put on the banned list so he didn't cheat
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
He also admitted taking greenies.
One could say he had a pretty big performance jump from being the last pick in the draft talent to what he quickly became in MLB.
No. That's not the standard. The standard is being able to convince 3/4 of the voting members of the BBWAA you are worthy within a certain period or 3/4 of one of various poorly assembled committees presumably ever. Bonds is never going to achieve the first standard no matter what he did on or off the field. He probably will achieve the second someday.
Every time my stance starts to soften on Bonds I look at before and after pics. I think we can all agree he was the best at using steroids. World class.
Still a nay for me
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I think that the general silence around this question is particularly damning to many posters arguments. I think the refusal to answer is really their answer.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Can anyone come up with the names of current players who have a prescription for amphetamines. I'm sure some are on the record or discussed.
I think that is double super-secret information. I don't think the commissioner releases that information
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
....
I just googled something like "mlb players ADHD" and the results are interesting. Didn't go through them. I've heard Trout's name before. One of those results is from 2012 and says 8% of the league. So either way I am sure it is rampant.
I know chris davis did it. also, lars anderson has given interviews about how much Adderall helped him.
the trout rumors have been circulating for years. it will never ever be released by mlb if he had a script to use.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Being more of an "AL guy" I didn't know too much about Sheffield.
If you just look at his totals, he looks like a good candidate. After looking more closely, I would not vote for him.
Bonds tainted the game forever.
And his head circumference became absolutely HUGE over his MLB career.