Cleaning Ancients

PwrHsePro

Hi all!

In transport from Dubai is an ancient that I hope to receive in a few weeks. It was advertised as "As Found" which means uncleaned.

Can anyone recommend where I can have this coin sent to be properly cleaned?

Thank you!
Jeff

bidask

No such thing as ‘ properly cleaned’
in my opinion

Best to buy a coin with original surfaces

PwrHsePro

@bidask said:
No such thing as ‘ properly cleaned’
in my opinion

Best to buy a coin with original surfaces

I tend to agree if it is a more modern coin... and especially more common...

I would venture to say that after a thousand years and more that they had wither been cleaned a number of times, or buried in the sand or mud or whatever and require some sort of treatment.

John Conduitt

@PwrHsePro said:

@bidask said:
No such thing as ‘ properly cleaned’
in my opinion

I tend to agree if it is a more modern coin... and especially more common...

I would venture to say that after a thousand years and more that they had wither been cleaned a number of times, or buried in the sand or mud or whatever and require some sort of treatment.

Yes you would have a job finding an uncleaned ancient. Every one of them came out of the ground. Hoard coins start out in large clumps covered in Verdigris and other deposits. This coin has been cleaned to some extent.

Whether it would be improved by further cleaning is something of a risk - sometimes the corrosion goes into the coin. And sending it to someone to be cleaned would be a big cost, so not really worth it for lower value coins. (I believe TPGs offer 'conservation'). But there are fairly safe things you can do yourself involving distilled water or Acetone, which more experienced collectors than me have posted about a fair few times.

PwrHsePro

Yep... I exchanged a few emails with David Hendin saying the same thing...

Im hoping to bring the legends out a bit better, then I thought Id PCGS it...

It wont hurt to leave it as is, but I felt it worth a few hundred dollars ro have it spruced up a bit...

291fifth

I'd leave it as is. The coin is probably Roman and has an interesting reverse.

PwrHsePro

@291fifth said:
I'd leave it as is. The coin is probably Roman and has an interesting reverse.

ROMAN PROVINCIAL. Phoenicia. Byblos under Macrinus (AD 217-218). AE 30 mm, 22.74 g. Laureate and cuirassed bust of Macrinus r., seen from front / Temple of Aphrodite including stairway to entrance of distyle temple with lighted altar on l. and conical baetyl of Aphrodite within courtyard to right, shown from aerial perspective. Rouvier, JIAN 4, 697; BMC Phoenicia 37-38; Price & Trell 713.

ajaan

Soak in olive oil for 6 months?

PwrHsePro

@ajaan said:
Soak in olive oil for 6 months?

Ya know, that was my modus operandi for years, but in talking with Hendin, found this was a no-no.

Apparently the acid in the olive oil is bad news and difficult to deal with later...

He mentioned the distilled water thing, but said that in the end that was pretty useless

Namvet69

What about a long soak in pure mineral oil?

PwrHsePro

@Namvet69 said:
What about a long soak in pure mineral oil?

Thank you... that may work, however, Im pretty reluctant to mess with a fairly valuable and scarce coin... Id prefer just to send it to a reputable pro.

Namvet69

I agree that is usually the first option other than leaving it as is. Have you seen any before and after results using the pro?

PwrHsePro

@Namvet69 said:
I agree that is usually the first option other than leaving it as is. Have you seen any before and after results using the pro?

I've never had one that Ive sent for cleaning... Ive done the olive oil thing with great results on $20 coins... but rhis is a totally different league.

Ive seen professionally cleaned coins in auctions and in museums...

syl

I've used the extra virgin olive oil soaks for cheaper coins and it does help, but you have to change it frequently. Nothing will work on really heavily encrusted things, depending on where they were dug.

PwrHsePro

@syl said:
I've used the extra virgin olive oil soaks for cheaper coins and it does help, but you have to change it frequently. Nothing will work on really heavily encrusted things, depending on where they were dug.

Yep... I always have done that too... when contacting David Hendin, he recommended against it.

PillarDollarCollector

Is it silver or copper?

PwrHsePro

@KingOfMorganDollar said:
Is it silver or copper?

Bronze

PillarDollarCollector

@PwrHsePro said:

@KingOfMorganDollar said:
Is it silver or copper?

Bronze

Probably best to leave it as is or have PCGS clean it safer that way I would think.

PillarDollarCollector

Took 1000's of year's to get it to this point it will get no worse in my opinion during your whole life time.

PwrHsePro

@KingOfMorganDollar said:

@PwrHsePro said:

@KingOfMorganDollar said:
Is it silver or copper?

Bronze

Probably best to leave it as is or have PCGS clean it safer that way I would think.

That is an option... I did want to have PCGS slab it, I wasnt aware that they did conservation...

I think it'd be a shame to slab it without having it be brought to its best condition.

PillarDollarCollector

@PwrHsePro said:

@KingOfMorganDollar said:

@PwrHsePro said:

@KingOfMorganDollar said:
Is it silver or copper?

Bronze

Probably best to leave it as is or have PCGS clean it safer that way I would think.

That is an option... I did want to have PCGS slab it, I wasnt aware that they did conservation...

I think it'd be a shame to slab it without having it be brought to its best condition.

Yes PCGS I believe they offer that service. Maybe someone here can give their input on this matter?

PillarDollarCollector

https://www.pcgs.com/restoration

Now do they offer this for different types of metals outside of silver or gold I don't know best to call them. My guess would be yes but I am not sure.

PwrHsePro

@KingOfMorganDollar said:
https://www.pcgs.com/restoration

Now do they offer this for different types of metals outside of silver or gold I don't know best to call them. My guess would be yes but I am not sure.

Thank you... I'll see what they can do.

PillarDollarCollector

@PwrHsePro said:

@KingOfMorganDollar said:
https://www.pcgs.com/restoration

Now do they offer this for different types of metals outside of silver or gold I don't know best to call them. My guess would be yes but I am not sure.

Thank you... I'll see what they can do.

NP let us see it once it is done and graded. I do not know ancient much at all how rare is this coin?

MsMorrisine

I don’t think PCGS slabs ancients.

If you are going to try to get it in a holder, may as well let NGC conserve it.

Otherwise, if it won’t be certified, I think PCGS wants me to say to send it to PCGS for conservation.

PwrHsePro

@KingOfMorganDollar said:

@PwrHsePro said:

@KingOfMorganDollar said:
https://www.pcgs.com/restoration

Now do they offer this for different types of metals outside of silver or gold I don't know best to call them. My guess would be yes but I am not sure.

Thank you... I'll see what they can do.

NP let us see it once it is done and graded. I do not know ancient much at all how rare is this coin?

Sure thing... I need to see if, like you said, if they do Bronze and particularly ancients. Im thinking this is a whole different beastie.

Its pretty rare... Ive only seen a couple over the past twenty some years. On ancients, I dont worry about the actual grade so much...

PillarDollarCollector

@PwrHsePro said:

@KingOfMorganDollar said:

@PwrHsePro said:

@KingOfMorganDollar said:
https://www.pcgs.com/restoration

Now do they offer this for different types of metals outside of silver or gold I don't know best to call them. My guess would be yes but I am not sure.

Thank you... I'll see what they can do.

NP let us see it once it is done and graded. I do not know ancient much at all how rare is this coin?

Sure thing... I need to see if, like you said, if they do Bronze and particularly ancients. Im thinking this is a whole different beastie.

Its pretty rare... Ive only seen a couple over the past twenty some years. On ancients, I dont worry about the actual grade so much...

When coins are rare condition does not matter (to some yes) you have to buy one when you get the chance otherwise you may never own one. I am sure PCGS will help guide you and hopefully they offer a service you can use. Good luck!!

PwrHsePro

@KingOfMorganDollar said:

@PwrHsePro said:

@KingOfMorganDollar said:

@PwrHsePro said:

@KingOfMorganDollar said:
https://www.pcgs.com/restoration

Now do they offer this for different types of metals outside of silver or gold I don't know best to call them. My guess would be yes but I am not sure.

Thank you... I'll see what they can do.

NP let us see it once it is done and graded. I do not know ancient much at all how rare is this coin?

Sure thing... I need to see if, like you said, if they do Bronze and particularly ancients. Im thinking this is a whole different beastie.

Its pretty rare... Ive only seen a couple over the past twenty some years. On ancients, I dont worry about the actual grade so much...

When coins are rare condition does not matter (to some yes) you have to buy one when you get the chance otherwise you may never own one. I am sure PCGS will help guide you and hopefully they offer a service you can use. Good luck!!

Agreed... so of the coin guys I hang out with feel differently... if its not as good as they want, they pass...

I dont mind grabbing a rare one in any condition so I have one, then holding out for a better one.

PwrHsePro

@MsMorrisine said:
I don’t think PCGS slabs ancients.

If you are going to try to get it in a holder, may as well let NGC conserve it.

Otherwise, if it won’t be certified, I think PCGS wants me to say to send it to PCGS for conservation.

I just sent PCGS a message.

PillarDollarCollector

@PwrHsePro said:

@MsMorrisine said:
I don’t think PCGS slabs ancients.

If you are going to try to get it in a holder, may as well let NGC conserve it.

Otherwise, if it won’t be certified, I think PCGS wants me to say to send it to PCGS for conservation.

I just sent PCGS a message.

Let us know how all this turns out and post images.

crito_is_baaack

I've done the extra virgin olive oil thing too. Thought the whole reason to use extra virgin is it's MORE acidic. And reason you change it frequently is because the acid reacts and gets used up. I always rinse with pure acetone afterwards though to make sure all oils are removed.

EDIT: Last coin I did this to wasn't an ancient but it is in a PCGS AU55 holder. And it looks exactly the same today as it did 10 years ago. So can't be too harmful. Might also add that sometimes a LITTLE (as little as possible) friction is required to remove all the green junk. I used a 100% cotton fluffy white towel. Applied pressure with the palms of my hand and gave it a 90 degree twist. Had two big green circles on the towel and the rest was loosened up so much the acetone rinse just washed it away. It's really is a lovely 2 Obol now...

EDIT2: Judge for yourself, just don't tell PCGS. I don't want them to know.

PwrHsePro

@crito_is_baaack said:
I've done the extra virgin olive oil thing too. Thought the whole reason to use extra virgin is it's MORE acidic. And reason you change it frequently is because the acid reacts and gets used up. I always rinse with pure acetone afterwards though to make sure all oils are removed.

EDIT: Last coin I did this to wasn't an ancient but it is in a PCGS AU55 holder. And it looks exactly the same today as it did 10 years ago. So can't be too harmful. ......

Per David Hendin:

my suggestion is that if you have any collector or dealer friends ask for their advice but under no circumstances should you ever soak ancient coins in olive oil. there are many ways to clean ancient coins but using something like olive oil, acidic and invasive and almost impossible to remove, is a terrible idea.

to remove olive oil from any of your coins....which you should do because it is definitely acidic.....take a clean jar with lid. soak the olive oil coins in 90% alcohol you get from the drugstore (usually they sell 70 and 90%). let them soak for a few hours. gentle swirl around and repeat.

if there is ANY COLOR to the alcohol after this then you must repeat.

afterward let coins dry on a paper towel. always store your coins in a dry place.

there are many places online with advice on cleaning. BUT look them over carefully and if anyone suggests olive oil ... turn the page....other tips....i would avoid the "pencils" made of fiberglass that stuff is nasty to inhale, avoid METAL brushes, avoid any STRONG acidic solutions.

crito_is_baaack

Yeah, the thing is when someone like that starts saying things that contradict decades of experience, all I hear is "blah, blah, blah, I'm the authoritay!" Never had any problem with olive oil or acetone UNLESS the coin is monster toned, of course. There's always an exception to the rule.

John Conduitt

@crito_is_baaack said:
Yeah, the thing is when someone like that starts saying things that contradict decades of experience, all I hear is "blah, blah, blah, I'm the authoritay!" Never had any problem with olive oil or acetone UNLESS the coin is monster toned, of course. There's always an exception to the rule.

The patina is what's protecting an ancient coin from corrosion. The acid in the oil will strip the patina (which is why you'd use it for cleaning in the first place). Once it's gone, you have to wait for it to re-tone, hoping in the meantime it doesn't get into contact with acids e.g. from fingertips or the air.

Ancients are more likely to have imperfections that give acid a route to the core of the coin. Some reactions self-perpetuate (as with bronze disease, which is caused by chlorides) so you don't want to risk upsetting the balance.

The type of metal is important - bronze and silver react with acid while gold barely does at all. But because of its inertness, you'll never need to clean a gold coin in olive oil anyway. Silver is less reactive than bronze, but still reacts with sulphur, which causes it to tone/go black.