Matte Proof Lincoln attribution

LCS · November 18, 2021 6:49PM

I have been looking over the PCGS matte proof photos, and some of them just don't look right...
Specifically the 1913 issues. Specifically the pr67+red...
I do not see any of the typical obverse or reverse die markers and the rim is not flat or broad and it does not have wire rims or a sharp inner edge.
It just looks wrong to me...
Anyone have any input?

MsMorrisine · November 18, 2021 6:57PM

MsMorrisine · November 18, 2021 6:57PM

This one?

MsMorrisine · November 18, 2021 7:01PM

hummingbird_coins · November 18, 2021 7:02PM

Looks just fine to me. It undoubtedly has the right texture.

MsMorrisine · November 18, 2021 7:11PM

I’m not knowledgeable about MPL

I can see what you are saying about the rims on the CoinFacts 67+RD vs the 67RD (both pictured above)

MsMorrisine · November 18, 2021 7:12PM

Check this out

Perhaps it may explain

https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/2021-s-1-silver-eagle-t1-emergency-issue-struck-san-francisco/838919

LCS · November 18, 2021 7:25PM

@MsMorrisine said:
This one?

Yes...

MsMorrisine · November 18, 2021 7:33PM

Did you go to the above silver eagle link?

Not only educational but also entertaining

LCS · November 18, 2021 7:47PM

@hummingbird_coins said:
Looks just fine to me. It undoubtedly has the right texture.

It is not the texture that I have issue with...

They used special high pressure hydraulic presses. The rims have always been a diagnostic for matte proofs.

Also, it is well known that the 1913 matte proof dies were used for business strikes after completion of the matte proof production.

That and the lack of identifiable die markers make me question this.

Of course it could be the photos fault...

LCS · November 18, 2021 7:49PM

KevinFlynn

LCS · November 18, 2021 7:52PM

Also, when you add up the total certified, there is a larger number of 13s certified than any other year. Even though there were conciterably more 1910s minted...

MsMorrisine · November 18, 2021 7:53PM

If you want to notify on Kevin Flynn his handle here is @kevinj

MsMorrisine · November 18, 2021 7:56PM

As far as “could be the image” goes, the silver eagle link shows just how wrong pictures can be in CoinFacts.

PCGS may have placed a business strike Lincoln on the MPL page

However it could be misattributed. Those aren’t square rims.

MsMorrisine · November 18, 2021 8:01PM

Well now….

Here is the cert page for it. graded “PR67+RD”

https://www.pcgs.com/cert/09925148

MsMorrisine · November 18, 2021 8:06PM

PCGS does make mistakes

robec · November 18, 2021 8:23PM

@LCS said:

Also, it is well known that the 1913 matte proof dies were used for business strikes after completion of the matte proof production.

I’m not sure this is true. I’ve always heard the MPL dies stayed in the medal room. Even Kevin Flynn says no MPL dies were used to strike coins for circulation. He actually mentions this twice in his book.

I agree with regards to the rims. Looking at the photo of the PR67+RD the rims have the appearance of beveled or rounded rather than sharply squared.

hbarbee · November 18, 2021 8:25PM

If you download the TrueView for that cert number at max size and zoom in on the image, the coin appears to have the die diagnostics described in Flynn's book for Obverse #1/Reverse #1.

LCS · November 18, 2021 8:27PM

@MsMorrisine said:

Compare this one to the one at the top of the page. A noticable difference in the rims. At least in the photos...

So, there are a couple of issues here...

First is that it may not be a ligitimate matte proof.

Second, if it is ligitimate, how does it get certified as the finest known example when it does not meet the basic diagnostics of a matte proof.

That would be like giving a dog with 3 legs the "Best in Show" trophy. I know it should have 4 legs, but look at that face...

LCS · November 18, 2021 8:29PM

@MsMorrisine said:
PCGS does make mistakes

Yes, everyone makes mistakes, but they should not make this kind of mistake on one that they certify as the finest known example...

LCS · November 18, 2021 8:32PM

@hbarbee said:
If you download the TrueView for that cert number at max size and zoom in on the image, the coin appears to have the die diagnostics described in Flynn's book for Obverse #1/Reverse #1.

Can you post some cropped images for us...

LCS · November 18, 2021 8:51PM

@robec said:

@LCS said:

Also, it is well known that the 1913 matte proof dies were used for business strikes after completion of the matte proof production.

I’m not sure this is true. I’ve always heard the MPL dies stayed in the medal room. Even Kevin Flynn says no MPL dies were used to strike coins for circulation. He actually mentions this twice in his book.

...Snip

In the 80's, there was published documentation of circ coins found with matte proof reverse diagnostics...

robec · November 18, 2021 9:08PM

@LCS said:

@robec said:

@LCS said:

Also, it is well known that the 1913 matte proof dies were used for business strikes after completion of the matte proof production.

I’m not sure this is true. I’ve always heard the MPL dies stayed in the medal room. Even Kevin Flynn says no MPL dies were used to strike coins for circulation. He actually mentions this twice in his book.

...Snip

In the 80's, there was published documentation of circ coins found with matte proof reverse diagnostics...

Also in the Flynn book he notes that coins rejected may have been placed in circulation. This seems more possible than using the retired dies which had their own closet in the medal room.

hbarbee · November 18, 2021 9:10PM

Here are some images. Converted to gray scale improves visibility...

LCS · November 18, 2021 9:19PM

@robec said:

@LCS said:

@robec said:

@LCS said:

Also, it is well known that the 1913 matte proof dies were used for business strikes after completion of the matte proof production.

I’m not sure this is true. I’ve always heard the MPL dies stayed in the medal room. Even Kevin Flynn says no MPL dies were used to strike coins for circulation. He actually mentions this twice in his book.

...Snip

In the 80's, there was published documentation of circ coins found with matte proof reverse diagnostics...

Also in the Flynn book he notes that coins rejected may have been placed in circulation. This seems more possible than using the retired dies which had their own closet in the medal room.

So... it may just be possible that this coin may have been rejected (let's say for weak rims) and released for circ, or pocketed by a mint employee?

Just conjectire on my part...

MsMorrisine · November 18, 2021 9:26PM

The rims aren’t there.

But

What about the quality of the details for the rest of the coin?

robec · November 18, 2021 9:27PM

One thing to note is that the coin belongs to Stewart Blay. If anyone knows MPL’s it is this man.
It is a part of his #1 ranked MPL set.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/alltimeset/1590

LCS · November 18, 2021 9:38PM

I'm really enjoying this conversation. I started collecting matte proofs in the 90's...

Here is one of mine. I picked it up for 65 bucks at a local show...

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=192198366283301&id=100642398772232

robec · November 18, 2021 9:55PM

Beautiful coin and even better price. Love your blog.

LCS · November 18, 2021 10:01PM

@robec said:
Beautiful coin and even better price. Love your blog.

Thank you for the kind words...

LCS · November 18, 2021 10:48PM

Ok...
Another observation...

What the heck is going on with the back.of Lincoln's jacket? It looks like a small gully is running the entire length of the jacket from the collar down to the base of the bust.

Just one more curiosity about this coin...

LCS · November 18, 2021 10:54PM

@MsMorrisine said:
Did you go to the above silver eagle link?

Not only educational but also entertaining

I really love the toning on those silver eagles. It almost looks like real gold...

PQueue · November 19, 2021 6:18AM

RE: Anyone have any input

This is a real quandary. Who could be correct? PCGS graders and finalizer who see the "finest known example" in hand, or someone who arrived yesterday unable to spell at a 3rd grade level (i.e. conciterably, ligitimate, conjectire)?

LCS · November 19, 2021 8:14AM

@PQueue said:
RE: Anyone have any input

This is a real quandary. Who could be correct? PCGS graders and finalizer who see the "finest known example" in hand, or someone who arrived yesterday unable to spell at a 3rd grade level (i.e. conciterably, ligitimate, conjectire)?

I understand that you do not know me from Adam. Let me introduce myself. My name is Robert Julian. I started collecting coins in the 60's. I have made some small contributions to the hobby in the past, but I haven't been active for about 20 years. I admit that I am new to this particular group but that does not mean that I was born yesterday. If you want to check me out follow this link...

https://www.facebook.com/The-Lincoln-Cent-Society-100642398772232

or maybe this one...

https://lincolncentsociety.wixsite.com/thelincolncentsoci-1

Here is a group where some people might vouch for me (or maybe not depending on their mood)...

https://www.facebook.com/groups/281634085880277

I used to spend a lot of time on forums. Maybe you can still find some of my posts on rec.collecting.coins I frequented that group in the 90's.

I am sorry if I sounded critical of PCGS in any was shape or form. I have a little interest in matte proofs and this particular coin strikes me as somewhat odd. The pictures of the coin on the PCGS site give the impression that the rims are not flat but rounded off. Here is a blow up of the rim in question...

Here is another photo of a matte proof taken from the PCGS website. Here the rims appear flat and there is evidence of a wire rim...

And finally, here is my example...

I am just questioning what I see. I am just a questioning kind of guy. Do you see a difference in the photos?

Also, I appologize for my abbility to propperly spel up to your satisfacton . I was typing those comments on my phone and my large clumsy fingers don't always find the right spot on the touchscreen. Also, I am afraid I have come to rely on the autocorrect function. And unfortunately, the autocorrect function is not one of my best friends...

Robert "sometimes I rub people the wrong way" Julian
President and founder of the Lincoln Cent Society (long ago and far away)

LCS · November 19, 2021 8:15AM

Here are some more detail images of the same 3 coins...

MsMorrisine · November 19, 2021 9:34AM

Don’t let one harsh person get you down

MsMorrisine · November 19, 2021 9:35AM

Did your coin get rejected as a MPL?

LCS · November 19, 2021 9:53AM

@MsMorrisine said:
Don’t let one harsh person get you down

Thanks for the kind words, but I, unlike others on the interweb, don't tend to take offence easily

But I get the feeling that, based on his, hers, they're, them's, comments, that he, she, they or them may be married or partnered with (or to) a professional grader. :-)

And, as far as seeing the "finest know example" goes, the folks over at NGC or ANACS or ICG or PCI or SEGS, etc, etc, etc... may have a different opinion (as far as that goes). All my coins were certified by ANACS long long ago. Also, all my coins were purchased raw. Even the matte proofs in my collection were allowed to breath fresh air until I condemned them to a life sentence of encapsulation.

Bob "just trying to get along" Julian
If the united nations were around during the U.S. civil war, we would still be fighting it today...

MFeld · November 19, 2021 9:55AM

@LCS said:

@PQueue said:
RE: Anyone have any input

This is a real quandary. Who could be correct? PCGS graders and finalizer who see the "finest known example" in hand, or someone who arrived yesterday unable to spell at a 3rd grade level (i.e. conciterably, ligitimate, conjectire)?

I understand that you do not know me from Adam. Let me introduce myself. My name is Robert Julian. I started collecting coins in the 60's. I have made some small contributions to the hobby in the past, but I haven't been active for about 20 years. I admit that I am new to this particular group but that does not mean that I was born yesterday. If you want to check me out follow this link...

https://www.facebook.com/The-Lincoln-Cent-Society-100642398772232

or maybe this one...

https://lincolncentsociety.wixsite.com/thelincolncentsoci-1

Here is a group where some people might vouch for me (or maybe not depending on their mood)...

https://www.facebook.com/groups/281634085880277

I used to spend a lot of time on forums. Maybe you can still find some of my posts on rec.collecting.coins I frequented that group in the 90's.

I am sorry if I sounded critical of PCGS in any was shape or form. I have a little interest in matte proofs and this particular coin strikes me as somewhat odd. The pictures of the coin on the PCGS site give the impression that the rims are not flat but rounded off. Here is a blow up of the rim in question...

Here is another photo of a matte proof taken from the PCGS website. Here the rims appear flat and there is evidence of a wire rim...

And finally, here is my example...

I am just questioning what I see. I am just a questioning kind of guy. Do you see a difference in the photos?

Also, I appologize for my abbility to propperly spel up to your satisfacton . I was typing those comments on my phone and my large clumsy fingers don't always find the right spot on the touchscreen. Also, I am afraid I have come to rely on the autocorrect function. And unfortunately, the autocorrect function is not one of my best friends...

Robert "sometimes I rub people the wrong way" Julian
President and founder of the Lincoln Cent Society (long ago and far away)

Your name sounds vaguely familiar😉
I think we should have a vote of forum members, to decide whether you should be banned for your spelling atrocities and lack of coin knowledge.😉

Welcome back, sir.

LCS · November 19, 2021 10:43AM

@MsMorrisine said:
Did your coin get rejected as a MPL?

Sorry, what is a MLP?

LCS · November 19, 2021 10:49AM

@MFeld said:

...SNIP...

Your name sounds vaguely familiar😉
I think we should have a vote of forum members, to decide whether you should be banned for your spelling atrocities and lack of coin knowledge.😉

Welcome back, sir.

If you are going to ban me for my spelling atrocities, you had best kick me out now. :-)

Bob "spelling is a foreign concept" Julian
PS: Note the use of ancient hieroglyphic smiley face, common before the emergence of emojis...

MsMorrisine · November 19, 2021 10:49AM

Matte proof Lincoln

LCS · November 19, 2021 10:53AM

@MsMorrisine said:
Matte proof Lincoln

Duhh... MPL... I can't believe I missed that... :-)

No, it wasn't rejected. :-) The only flaw on this example is the tiny planchet error located in the field to the west of Lincoln's bust. And, as I remember my grading, planchet irregularities that did not fill during the strike should not impact the grade. (at least not much) :-)

You have to excuse these photos, they were taken with my pocket Sony CyberShot digital camera. The color is a bit more red than it shows here. I am still experimenting with color correction software.

LCS · November 19, 2021 11:08AM

Here is the reverse, just for giggles...

LCS · November 19, 2021 12:00PM

@MsMorrisine:

How many people comment on your reference to the twilight zone?

LanceNewmanOCC · November 19, 2021 12:45PM

@LCS said:

@MsMorrisine:

How many people comment on your reference to the twilight zone?

so did your inquiry get resolved? i agree about the rims being questionable, that much is obvious but as someone else stated, it is in a set of someone that would be hard-pressed to miss something like this on a top-pop coin.

if the dies were not used for business strikes "so says mint records", then having the diagnostics makes it 100% an mpl despite the rims but if a few are known to have been struck "despite mint records", then further work is merited. odds would be low a business strike flan would be used with the mpl dies but TBH, with all i've read from forum members AND directly from mint records, just about anything is possible.

it is also possible to having images accidentally switched in a TV. doesn't happen often but it has. so maybe blay can come by and comment that everything is on the up n up. someone know his handle to quote him?

MsMorrisine · November 19, 2021 1:14PM

@LCS said:

@MsMorrisine:

How many people comment on your reference to the twilight zone?

Only a few

But they are fans

MsMorrisine · November 19, 2021 1:18PM

@STEWARTBLAYNUMIS
Paging!

LCS · November 19, 2021 1:47PM

@LanceNewmanOCC said:

@LCS said:

@MsMorrisine:

Snip...

so did your inquiry get resolved? i agree about the rims being questionable, that much is obvious but as someone else stated, it is in a set of someone that would be hard-pressed to miss something like this on a top-pop coin.

...snip

I agree with your comment. I greatly appreciate your imput...

With that said, I am leaning toward poor photographic work at PCGS. Without being able to see the coin first hand there is no way to know for sure.

If the rims are in fact as photographed I, for one. Would love to know why they didn't strike up...

With all that said, It is all just conjecture and water cooler conversations at this point...

It is truely a beautiful coin regardless...

LanceNewmanOCC · November 19, 2021 2:08PM

@robec said:

per a 2018 thread you participated in, i'd say the coin despite the rims has the diagnostics for dies 1. LINK

this doesn't confirm it is an MPL but just that it came from those dies of course.

LanceNewmanOCC · November 19, 2021 2:10PM

@hbarbee said:
Here are some images. Converted to gray scale improves visibility...

thanks for the images with the MPL diagnostics.

Matte Proof Lincoln attribution

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