Question (well, questions) about possible Ted Williams autographed baseball

GilR

I have a Ted Williams autographed baseball that may or may not be genuine, and want to get your thoughts about it. I recently had to remove from my parents' house the collection of baseball cards and autographs that I put together as a teenager around 1986-1990, and am starting to sell a few items -- and, having returned to the hobby after thirty years, I've discovered the importance of first having cards graded and autographs authenticated. Here is the situation with this baseball, and why I am asking forum members for their insights.

Around 1986 or 1987 I decided to try to have a ball signed by all living members of the 500 homer club and, instead of starting from scratch, while at an autographs and cards show I bought a Ted Williams baseball which I then got signed by Willie Mays, Ernie Banks and Harmon Killebrew. So it has three autographs that I know are genuine, but at some point I learned about autographs being forged, and have always wondered about this Williams signature. If I knew for certain it's legitimate it would be a no-brainer to have all four signatures authenticated and put it on the market, but if it's a forgery then presumably the ball has little value -- other than as a life lesson -- even if 75% of its autographs are 100% genuine. And since the raw cost of authenticating a Williams autographed ball is $75, and then there are the shipping expenses, etc., AND the cost is same whether or not it's a genuine autograph, that's a pretty big gamble to take without knowing more.

I have spent a good two hours or so online doing a deep dive into the world of Williams authenticated signatures and forgeries (using PSA's webpage on the subject, photos of authenticated balls on eBay, and online discussions here and elsewhere), and now know enough that I was able to spot a clear fake going for $300 on eBay, but I'm still uncertain about this one. Here is my thinking, and I would very much like to get yours based on the photo I'm uploading:

• I can find no signature that it matches precisely, though most of the letters are quite close to those in numerous authenticated signatures.
• Each of the letters that looks different from the ones in Williams's standard autograph has at least one parallel out there. In other words, while the signature as a whole doesn't match any I could find, each component does have a genuine match.
• The biggest argument against authenticity is the 's', since pretty much every Williams signature ends with a diagonal, downwards line that goes below the rest of the 's'. However, there is a signed personal check on PSA's Ted Williams webpage -- the "1983 Ted Williams Signed Check" at https://www.psacard.com/autographfacts/baseball/ted-williams/images/46 -- that shows an 's' like the one in the photo, so it's not impossible, and the overall shape of the 's' is about right. Moreover, if this is a forgery then it seems a rather good one, and a good forger would have to know about getting the 's' right -- which, perversely, seems a solid argument for authenticity. After all, there's no reason why Williams, having been signing dozens if not hundreds of balls at a show, might not have eased up a little when reaching the end of this one. (My memory could be faulty, but I have a hazy recollection of the dealer who sold me this ball saying he had had it signed by Williams at a recent autograph appearance. If so, as a dealer he would have had Williams sign a number of balls one after the other, so Williams might have been a bit less careful about getting each one perfect.)
• The 'T' ends with a horizontal line that normally goes through the 'e', but here goes just above it, which is unusual.
• The 'm' is formed strangely, but there are other examples that are similar to it.
• The 'i' in most Williams signatures normally begins a bit above the line and then descends before going up, but there are several examples that instead look like this.

So, is there something that makes this clearly a forgery, or does it clearly look genuine? Or, does it look genuine enough that it's worth the $100+ to have a professional take a look? And, if it's either deemed a definite forgery or PSA is too uncertain to state it is authentic, am I right that this renders the other autographs valueless?

I'm sorry about the long post, but want to be as well informed as I can be. Plus after all of the time I've spent studying this and other signatures that spell out "Ted Williams" I find it an interesting subject, regardless of
whether the ball is worth $500 or $5. Thank you for reading all this, and for any thoughts you might wish to share.

swish54

If you bought it through Scoreboard, I would definitely be concerned, but it sounds like you maybe bought it before they came around. Something you might want to look into is the psa quick opinion option. Not sure exactly on the price difference, but I think it's cheaper...at least it is for less valuable autos and is a way to not get a certain yes it's real, but to give you an idea if you want to spend bigger money on sending in.

Also, don't forget that if you send it in, you will have to have all 4 auto's authenticated or none. They won't just authenticate 1 or 2 and not the others since they're all on the same item. Looks like it would be $100 to authenticate all 4.

1959

I say its real. Ted signed at the Atlanta show way back in the late 80's and the ball he signed for me looks almost exactly like yours, except my s looks almost like a Q. He connected the d with the W and did not dot the i.s and the l s are only slightly higher than the other letters, He was very, very nice , but signed quickly. I think he was there on a time limit, rather than a ball limit. Plus, if Mays, Banks, and Killebrew each sighed the ball , one of them should or might have noticed a forged Williams, as they sighed many 500 HR. photos(but , mabe not.) I still believe yours is legit.

GilR

Thank you both for your responses. I’d welcome any further thoughts from others out there.

swish54,
I thought about “QuickOpinion,” but that seems to be only for online auctions. So I would have to list the ball on eBay and then ask for an opinion on it, and I would rather not list something unless I’m certain about it. (Though, I guess, if in the product description I’m up front about not having seen Williams sign I’m not doing anything dishonest.)
Your other point raises an issue I was wondering about, and figured that I’d bring up with PSA’s customer service in advance if I do send the ball in: presumably, there should be a way to ask them to check the Williams signature, and if they consider it fake not check the other three. After all, why throw away money on those, if it’s something I can’t sell? I have no idea what PSA’s policies are, but that doesn’t seem unreasonable. But maybe that can't be done.

giantsfan20

Here is a link from our host

https://www.psacard.com/autographfacts/baseball/ted-williams/46

Showing in their opinion real autographs.

dontippet

You can list it on ebay for a huge price so no one will buy it. Then pull it down once you get your quick opinion.

GilR

Thanks for your responses.

dontippet,
I thought of that, too, but am not sure how kosher it is. I wouldn't want to run afoul of PSA.

1959,
If you're still reading this thread, I should have asked before if your Williams ball also has the line from the 'T' going above the 'e', which is definitely unusual for one of his signatures.

1959

No it does not. mine has no line crossing the T.I did not notice that in yours until now. The lope of my T is just like yours at the top but the bottom of the T just makes a very small lope to the bottom left of the T. Never does it cross the T and like yours. I also have a large photo and it does not have the T crossed. If you look at the link from Giantsfan their are many ball and photos that he signed that have the T crossed. I think it is legit and you may think it is legit, but if you ever want to sell you should get it PSA graded. Call PSA and see if they charge by the ball or each signature. If you're not going to sell for a while , wait till the prices go down.(if they ever do). It's like having 4 kids and one looks like the postman. You're pretty sure but still....Should I get a DNA test?

dontippet

You won't run afoul with PSA. I have done it all the time. I don't know about now, but it used to be the #1 way to get a quick opinion.

@GilR said:
Thanks for your responses.

dontippet,
I thought of that, too, but am not sure how kosher it is. I wouldn't want to run afoul of PSA.

1959,
If you're still reading this thread, I should have asked before if your Williams ball also has the line from the 'T' going above the 'e', which is definitely unusual for one of his signatures.

GilR

Thanks! If it's not a problem then I agree that I should do it. From PSA's perspective, they make $10 or so no matter what, and if it's authentic then they make much more when I send the ball in for official authentication (along with another autographed ball I want to sell that I got signed in person, but wouldn't be worth the expense of sending alone).

GilR

Getting back to this old thread... The time has finally come for me to want to have PSA authenticate this ball and another one that I don't really need (Joe Sewell), and I'm not sure whether it's better to just to go with that, or also to have the signatures and balls graded, if my plan is to try to sell both. (I'm only sending them to PSA to boost the chances of getting a good price; presumably, PSA's imprimatur would add more than the roughly $150 this will cost.) In the case of this ball with Williams, Mays, Banks and Killebrew my instinct is that the names would sell the ball, and especially because the ball shows signs of aging -- or whatever causes that yellowing that many balls get -- the PSA grade wouldn't be that high; in the other case, both the ball and signature look great, so perhaps it's worth the extra $10 there for grading (though probably not the $15 to get a letter rather than a certificate). Any thoughts/advice? Thanks!

GilR

Once again revisiting this thread that I started back in November. Today I received back from PSA the baseball, which they did indeed authenticate. (Well, I knew the Banks, Mays and Killebrew signatures were legit, but it's good to know they think the Williams one is, too.) I figured that at least a few of you would be interested, even if by now you've forgotten all about it.

Also, I have a question. I'm now wondering what the best way is to sell a PSA-authenticated baseball. If I sell it on eBay I know about having bidding end on a Saturday or Sunday night, but is seven days or ten days better? Perhaps more importantly, should I list it for a set amount -- which I'd somehow have to determine -- or auction it, and if auctioning it should there be a "Buy It Now" price? Or, do try to sell it through this forum, over in the autographs area? Thanks!

CoinCrazyPA

Glad it worked out for you. You can try using no auction on ebay and list it as a buy it now option. Or do both list it on ebay and put it in the buy sell trade section with a link to your ebay site.

1959

I would keep it for a while. Mays is not getting younger and his auto will sour in a few years. If you really want to sell , I would contact some of the major auction houses, (Lelands, Memory Lane, etc.) and get their opinion .

GilR

Thanks to both of you for your advice.

CoinCrazyPA (or anyone else): Is there a sensible way of determining a "Buy It Now" price for a ball with four Hall of Famers? I assume that after finding what their individual autographs have sold for one doesn't simply add them up, though perhaps there isn't a standard formula here. I've checked eBay for authenticated Williams balls sold over the last month and the prices range from $150 to $500 (with some outliers above that), but there is no Williams+Banks+Mays+Killebrew ball for comparison.

1959 (or anyone else): I hadn't thought of going to an auction house with just one item, but it seems a very good idea... unless the cut they take would be so large that it's actually better to sell the ball on eBay for a smaller amount. Any thoughts on this?

I'll add that I do want to sell the ball (with some of that money going into baseball cards). I have two balls that I also got signed back around 1986-90, one for A.L. stars of the 1930's-1970's and the other for N.L. stars of those periods, I and I also got Mays, Killebrew and Banks to sign those, so I would only be losing the Williams autograph from my collection. But since I didn't get that one in person I don't mind parting with it.

1959

I would call and talk personally with each auction house and get a clear understanding of their charges for the item. (and I believe any reputable auction house will take one item only depending on that item. Plus , you and you alone can determine the least you want for the ball. Ask around , (just like you are doing) Plus, you can put a minimum bid or reserve any item at most all auctions and on e-bay. On an auction you need 2 people that want it, At a Buy it Now , you only need one. It is always easier to come down on a price, than go up.

GilR

I've been having trouble properly listing this baseball on eBay, thanks to their somehow not letting me list more than one player in the "item specifics" area, and their technical support being useless. I posted on this over in the autographs subforum, thinking that was the logical place to seek advice, but it turns out I should have done so here. Rather than starting a new thread, I'm providing a link. Thanks!

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1072967/question-about-listing-autographed-baseball-w-multiple-signatures-on-ebay-and-if-that-can-be-done

swish54

Pick the most prominent name and put that one in the item specifics. Put all of the names in the title and description and it will get pulled when someone searches for any of those players. I just searched for it and it came up. If you're worried about it not getting enough bids, start it at what you would like to get or put a reserve on it. Usually though, auctions don't get as much money as BIN/BO listings, so if you're wanting to maximize profit, keep it as BIN/BO. It will take longer to sell, but you'll be happier with the results.

GilR

@swish54 said:
Pick the most prominent name and put that one in the item specifics. Put all of the names in the title and description and it will get pulled when someone searches for any of those players. I just searched for it and it came up. If you're worried about it not getting enough bids, start it at what you would like to get or put a reserve on it. Usually though, auctions don't get as much money as BIN/BO listings, so if you're wanting to maximize profit, keep it as BIN/BO. It will take longer to sell, but you'll be happier with the results.

Thanks, I appreciate it. I'm glad your search worked. Mine haven't always worked, as I describe in the other thread. I've had it at BIN/BO for a month, dropping the price periodically (since I can't say for certain what it's worth, unlike a ball with a single autograph) and was going to change it to an auction after its listing ends this evening, but I'll keep it at BIN/BO. I will, however, change it back to being a baseball.

Crazy that eBay has never bothered to do the necessary coding for multiple names -- especially when they already have the code written for sports cards and could easily reuse it.