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I believe JSA made a mistake and authenticated a preprint

JMS1223JMS1223 Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭✭✭

I hate to say this, but I am fairly confident that JSA made a mistake. I had one of these Barack Obama Senate letters from before he became President. It was received as a result of a simple email request for a signed photo. It arrived in a large U.S. Senate envelope that included an autopen signed photo, a letter VERY similar to this one, and a piece of cardboard.

At first when I received the letter I thought it might be real, but upon closer examination under a good light and magnification I could tell the ink of the signature was identical to the ink from the top of the letterhead…same exact blue and same type of ink. I could also see that it had zero pen pressure and look printed. I also recall years later seeing similar letterhead (from a different Senator) that was blank but had the preprinted signature along with the letterhead but no text. It looked like they printed up the letterhead with the preprinted signature then would add the text/body for whenever someone needed a response. There were several sheets and all were identical signatures so definitely printed.

Just thought I would point this out. I thought it was very convincing so I can understand why it slipped through JSA and they authenticated it, but just a heads up to be careful even when dealing with authenticated items. By the way, this sold for over $1300.

Comments

  • JBKJBK Posts: 14,536 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have no specific knowledge of BO's office practices, but I think the common method now for many in the Senate/Congress is to print out the entire letter at once on a color printer. The letterhead and signature are blue, and the text is black.

    You mentioned that you saw a page with blue letterhead and signature that had no text, so in that case the text was printed later.

    I am already not such a fan of JSA because he puts his darn stickers all over the place.

    To be honest, I have at least as much respect for the opinions of you and others who really study habits and signatures. Too many of the so-called experts make questionable calls. For me, their role is to validate what I have already concluded.

    I remember some years ago I emailed a major dealer/authenticator (don't remember who) to let him know that an Edward Teller photo he was selling on Ebay was an autopen. I even gave him the auction number of another auction that had the same photo for comparison.

    He responded with a ton of attitude and tried to intimidate me by putting all of his affiliations under his signature line of his email.

  • JMS1223JMS1223 Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Proof it’s preprinted. I found another Senate letter online and superimposed the two signatures and as you can see they match.

  • JBKJBK Posts: 14,536 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2021 3:52AM

    Excellent work!

    I suspect that the signature was in the software template and was printed out with the letter.

  • JMS1223JMS1223 Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Just an update regarding the preprint JSA mistakenly authenticated.

    It sold for $1331.00 this past October. I was browsing ended eBay auctions and saw this mistake unfortunately attracted 61 bidders and sold. :#

    Maybe I should had said something to the seller when it was being auctioned? Or bad idea?

    https://ebay.com/itm/President-Barack-Obama-Signed-2006-US-Senate-Typed-Letter-Autograph-JSA-LOA-/384411726498?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l6249&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0

  • JBKJBK Posts: 14,536 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That's scary.

    If you had tried to alert them I am guessing they would just have hidden behind the JSA letter.

    I got a letter recently (I forget who, but I think it was a politician) and it was clear that the blue letterhead and signature, and the black text, were all printed at the same time on a color printer.

  • JMS1223JMS1223 Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JBK said:
    I got a letter recently (I forget who, but I think it was a politician) and it was clear that the blue letterhead and signature, and the black text, were all printed at the same time on a color printer.

    I am glad it appeared clear to you that your recent letter was entirely laser printed but I wonder if JSA would authorization that one. :D

    I had an Obama signed Senate letter like this received in 2008 and it was pretty convincing at first but upon further examination I could tell the signature was printed. The type was definitely laser printed but the signature looked like it was printed with the stationary (a less glossy looking ink, whereas text looked glossy).

  • JMS1223JMS1223 Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Not going to start a new thread so I will post this here since it’s somewhat related.

    This is a definite pre-print/autopen Bill Clinton photo (also not authenticated) but someone still thought $162.50 for this sounded good:

    Crazier thing is bidding started at $37 and it attracted 13 bids (same 2 people kept bidding against each other according to bidding history).

    :D

  • JBKJBK Posts: 14,536 ✭✭✭✭✭

    :o:s

  • JMS1223JMS1223 Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Found a Beckett slabbed Bill Clinton autopen :'( $250

  • bronzematbronzemat Posts: 2,597 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Gotta love those ABC graders. I ignore pretty all of them. Shame one has too. So many uninformed collectors rely on them as if they're always 100%.

  • JMS1223JMS1223 Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bronzemat said:
    Gotta love those ABC graders. I ignore pretty all of them. Shame one has too. So many uninformed collectors rely on them as if they're always 100%.

    But sadly if you go to sell an autograph to a dealer they demand it be authenticated by one of these companies.

  • bronzematbronzemat Posts: 2,597 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JMS1223 said:

    @bronzemat said:
    Gotta love those ABC graders. I ignore pretty all of them. Shame one has too. So many uninformed collectors rely on them as if they're always 100%.

    But sadly if you go to sell an autograph to a dealer they demand it be authenticated by one of these companies.

    Oh trust me, I know. And if you sell it raw without the slick sticker, you get peanut shells in return. Autographs, to me, are the worst to expect any kind of return, if you need to sell. Coins on the other hand.

  • JMS1223JMS1223 Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Just looked at completed auctions on eBay for Sandra Day O’Connor signed Chambers Cards and sadly saw three autopen versions sold. One “authenticated” by PSA/DNA sold for under $299. It was bought with a Best Offer and I don’t know how to figure out what the true sold price was - https://www.ebay.com/itm/294397020077?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=qKS0U3xFRHK&sssrc=2047675&ssuid=da4IlHDuTvG&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

    The other two sold for $70 and $150. The way I can tell these are autopen aside from the fact that there are exact matches is that Sandra Day O’Connor signed the authentic ones toward the top where her name is imprinted on the card. The ones signed in the middle or with plenty of room above her signature is an indication of autopen signature.

  • bronzematbronzemat Posts: 2,597 ✭✭✭✭✭

    And you wonder why I am not a fan of the ABC graders.

    Here is what the one sold for.

  • JMS1223JMS1223 Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bronzemat said:
    And you wonder why I am not a fan of the ABC graders.

    Here is what the one sold for.

    Wow $275! :o

    How do you do that (figure out actual sold price on Best Offer items)?

  • bronzematbronzemat Posts: 2,597 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JMS1223 said:

    @bronzemat said:
    And you wonder why I am not a fan of the ABC graders.

    Here is what the one sold for.

    Wow $275! :o

    How do you do that (figure out actual sold price on Best Offer items)?

    Viewing the page source and wadding through the code, finding the sold line. Pain in the a** because ebay constantly changes it.

  • JMS1223JMS1223 Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bronzemat said:

    @JMS1223 said:

    @bronzemat said:
    And you wonder why I am not a fan of the ABC graders.

    Here is what the one sold for.

    Wow $275! :o

    How do you do that (figure out actual sold price on Best Offer items)?

    Viewing the page source and wadding through the code, finding the sold line. Pain in the a** because ebay constantly changes it.

    There are just a couple I was curious about:

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/303696081085?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=ZQ-g3RGzQai&sssrc=2047675&ssuid=da4IlHDuTvG&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/265626672756?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=TMFVhiHPTvy&sssrc=2047675&ssuid=da4IlHDuTvG&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

    Thanks.

  • bronzematbronzemat Posts: 2,597 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • JMS1223JMS1223 Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 20, 2022 12:51PM

    @bronzemat said:

    Thanks so much. I find it very interesting that many of these Best Offers are only a little bit under the Buy It Now prices. Makes sense because whenever I try to submit a Best Offer I always get a counter offer of just a little off the original price. I guess most that do Best Offer only want to give you like 10% off. No bargains to be had for the most part.

  • JMS1223JMS1223 Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 24, 2022 3:39AM

    The preprinted Obama Senate letter that JSA “authenticated” shown in the first post of this thread just sold two days ago for an amount just under $2799 (a Best Offer was accepted): https://ebay.com/itm/133990499385?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=8kYxhejqTd2&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=da4IlHDuTvG&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

  • bronzematbronzemat Posts: 2,597 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • JBKJBK Posts: 14,536 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Insane!

  • JMS1223JMS1223 Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This particular example isn’t “authenticated” but I see this convincing Steven Spielberg preprint often with stickers or encapsulated. I also often see this without authentication for high prices since people think it’s real. There are three different variations of this preprint so buyer beware!

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/225075010060?hash=item3467841a0c:g:Ad0AAOSw8whi0JvO

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