Damaged during authentication/grading process
Jayman1982
Posts: 467 ✭✭✭
Well, 4 cards out of a 31 card modern value submission were damaged after they were received by PSA, really disappointed...
I don't let things like this crease slide through, this received a 5, it was a solid 9 if not gem when it left my house:
Here's some top edge damage done to two cards, the first received a 6, it was a solid 10, the second card pictured received an 8, probably a 9 at worst:
Here's a nice dinged corner that wasn't there when I subbed it, this received an 8 as well, was a lock for a 10
These aren't high value cards, maybe 200usd on the one that got a 5, and I haven't noticed this careless damage on anything but value subs. But 4 out of 31 is not healthy odds, I have hundred left outstanding at the value levels and am now sweating bullets waiting for when a higher value card gets mangled.
Anyone else seeing a similar pattern of damage lately? Is this caused by the Gemamint scanning technology? Are they placing cards in some sort of rigid holder apparatus for scanning? I ask because I never recall seeing this type of damage years ago...
Cheers,
Jay
Comments
I have gotten about `10 cards back in the last 6 months with similar damage in similar spots. I have received nothing back in the last few months so not much to add besides that.
That is 100% unacceptable. I need to go back and check some of my more recent subs as some of the grades were completely surprising. In fact, so surprising that I simply put them in a box so that I could try to forget they ever happened.
Sorry this happened but it does seem to be more prevalent these days.
PSA has damaged cards in 7 of my last 10 orders. Sometimes it is in their sealing process, sometimes it seems like they are dropping a card from the grading table, and sometimes it seems they are jamming cards back into CS1's with no discretion.
Prior to the pandemic, PSA had never damaged a card I submitted to them.
What can be done about this? Is it possible for accountability here?
Nathanael
On the other side of the equation, from the same order, here is a PSA 10 card with a damaged corner. It is now an 8 at best:
I understand that you can get compensated for cards that are "over-graded" (ie. damaged after grading and are thus labeled a higher grade than they should be), but has anyone been successful in pleading their case that the cards were damaged by the grading staff and were compensated for what the declared value was? I don't have any before scans, something I kick myself for not doing, but alas, here we are...
Also check your high grades, I have multiple "10's" that have bent/blunted/frayed corners
Very unfortunate. I need to go back and review my returned collectors club order from last month and do another review front and back.
Totally unacceptable.
I contacted PSA because I thought one of my cards was damaged. The customer service was very nice about it, and after sending them pictures, they opened a case for me and set up a return because they wanted to look at the card in person. The unfortunate thing though is you have to cover the shipping cost there and back, and I never had any conclusive pictures of the card from before grading showing the area I thought was damaged. Without that, you risk just making a determination on their own, and I decided it was not worth it. I also was unable to get a clear answer on what kind of compensation I would receive if they agreed with me, so you don't even really know what you're risking in that case.
I'll be taking much better pictures of my cards when I send in the future after PSA re-opens to the rest of us.
Unbelievable!!!!! With all the money we spend, we should have a clearcut answer to damage while in psa possession. We have to get this done as customers! We take our time to do everything they say to get good grades. I won't be sending anymore in until we know. Bs
I had no idea this was so commonly happening. If I learned one thing today it is to take pictures of every card prior to sending them out for grading.
I've reached out to CS as well, it just feels like a "my word against theirs" kind of scenario. Since this has happened on two recent orders of mine plus what sounds like many other members here, this is now no longer just isolated incidents but appears to be a broad issue of handling damage to otherwise undamaged cards across the board. With hundreds of cards currently with them I'm not eager to submit my growing submission pile until this gets addressed publicly by PSA.
yep. i have not had one with as many as above, especially that creased 5.
those edge crimps & corner bends, as ive mentioned in the poppage thread, on the other hand are all too familiar. same spot, same size, same overall damage.
sorry, op.
very unfortunate. unless the card was numbered and with pics, I really believe it would be very hard to prove it happened in PSA's hands.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I have had cards damaged by PSA. I got the reasons to not consider my claims as valid....1. I missed the damage 2. I may have not shipped securely 3. there is no way to determine when and how the damage occurred. This is very frustrating. I had a beautiful group of 1975 OPC come back with thumb nail marks and creases a few years back. I think the grader was mishandling the cards while removing them from the CS1s but apparently I missed that on multiple cards? I also had an absolutely beautiful 1986 Carnation Koloffs come back a 7 and a giant corner smash on it. After the damage, I don't even think it deserved the 7 grade. This is just my experience so take it for what it's worth.
Same here. I know exactly what you're saying
This is nothing new. Been hearing about damaged cards by PSA for over 20 years.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
Agreed, damage to cards has and will continue to happen. But to have it happen to 15% of an entire order is new (to me at least) and needs to be addressed.
A friend of mine got two cards bk that have greasy finger prints on them... pretty sure those people eat lunch on their job. pizza? hot dog? fries?
With a “tsunami” of submissions I am surprised only 15% are damaged. Tsunamis are generally very destructive.
of course. accidents have happened since the dawn of time. i think the frequency is what a lot of folks are attempting to hit on here. have 10x or more of these in the last six months than in the past 10+ years combined.
Not to change the subject, but I was wondering how many females are graders and if anyone that handles cards have a fingernail length requirement.? Seems that long fingernails and newly trained people that have basically no knowledge or interest in the card hobby might not take as much care in handling each card. ( I know , sexist statement).
The majority of cards PSA assesses are only submitted on the idea that condition scarcity will equal enhanced value. PSA's first order of business should be to respect the cards that are submitted and not damage them. Funny that some are excusing the company for damaging cards as if it is just part of what we all accept when we send our cards to Newport Beach.
If PSA was an encapsulation service where we all just liked having our cards encased in plastic for fun, then this wouldn't be as big a deal.
It's actually pretty simple. The consumer is paying for a service that is being offered. If at any time they do not receive that service or their item is damaged from that service then it is on the service provider to compensate that consumer. It's very cut and dry.
Obviously, PSA has been inundated with requests for their service but this should never preclude them from the responsibility of damaged items. I think we all understand that it can and does happen but quality control should be the highest priority in a business model like this and escalating problems like this should be addressed promptly.
Perhaps Todd can make some inquiries. He has always been amazing and helpful.
I commiserate with the OP.
It's highly unlikely he missed those damaged areas on the cards since he was aiming for 10s and 9s. With that said, without any before pictures, it's a difficult case. Even with pictures, who is to say that it was the exact same card that got sent in. Unless it's a special card with a unique numbering, a picture of the card before it is sent off to PSA is not going to be incontestable evidence.
I think we should scan our cards front and back while they are in the CS1s and then send off the package to PSA while emailing those images to their customer service email at the same time so that they have them on record before there is even a problem. If there ends up being any damage, PSA can compare to the images they already received. They can then see how the centering of the graded cards' front and back matches the ones in the scans to at least rule out obvious switches. This practice would help both PSA and customer. It makes the process more transparent.
I think the OP needs to move forward with the case as best as he can. I mean, he even has a card that was damaged in a PSA 10 holder. He is pointing out all these visible damages, regardless of grade, and all from the same order.
Good Luck and let us know how it turns out.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
Pretty sure a 15% rate of ruined cards would sink this company very quickly. I'm hoping my remaining orders fair better than > @DeutscherGeist said:
They are scanning cards prior to grading, right? The fingerprinting/Gemamint thing? They should be able to compare that scan with what is in the holder now, that would at least catch any damage done to the card after the initial scan. The damage to the 10 should at least be caught as that was done after grading, the others could have been when first removing them from the CS1's and you're right, it would be my word against theirs. My hope is that many people with these issues are letting them know, complaining, asking for answers, so we can actually see some accountability take place. In no way is a 15% damage rate acceptable or sustainable, it is in their best interest to make this right with their customers and do something to prevent future incidences. If they don't do anything this is a quick one way ticket to losing market share.
I have sent pictures and explanations via the quality assurance reporting tool in the customer service section of their site, I will update this thread as I hear back from them.
With multiple people experiencing the same issue, this is a huge red flag. I am not a fan of those CS1's, but if I'm submitting can I put the card in a penny sleeve first, then the CS1? I think this will allow for easier removal of the card from the CS1. Some cards have a glossy finish and when those are in a CS1 the surface can stick to the holder -- which might cause the grader to try pulling the card out differently and in the process damage the card. That graded 10 with the bent corner -- is that happening during encapsulation? Did they drop the card before putting it into the holder? Either way this is very bad service and PSA should come clean on this immediately and also compensate the customer for ruining their card(s).
I cut a 45 degree corner on my penny sleeves so the trailing corner of the card doesn't get touched on the way into the sleeve. I then affix a Post-it Flag to the top of the penny sleeve and then put that into a CS1 so the tab extends out of the CS1 opening. This means they can just pull out the penny sleeve by the tab attached to the sleeve without digging their fingers into the CS1. There's zero excuse for a card of mine being damaged on the way out of a CS1. While it's out and when it has to go back in a holder, that's another matter entirely.
I asked how the card is secured for scanning, but they said don't share any of their grading methods outside of the grading team.
Because there seems to be damage pre and post grading, there are likely multiple touch points in their whole process that need to be examined and re-evaluated.
im sure the post it pulls are most likely removed prior to them making it to the grading table.
Dreamcrusher
Are they feeding these cards through a money counter scanner?
Im wondering if it is happening through whatever the scanning process is.
Jayman1982,
I read up on this Genamint technology and it does sound like the cards are scanned prior to grading, so PSA can use that to verify the customer claims. The scan is supposedly so detailed, that it would make switching cards very difficult, which is good, because this will protect the honest customer and PSA.
Anytime a card is handled, there is going to be a risk of damage. It can get damaged during the scanning process, so hopefully those machines are being evaluated for even further safeguards to ensure cards are not compromised in any way.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
i didn't think there was anything more inexcusable than taking a year to perform a paid service
that's what i get for thinking
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
.
I had a killebrew rookie come back with a big chip in the top border just hanging there. it was harshly graded but after the damage probably correct , nothing I could do besides vent
I have a verlander rookie that came back a 6, upper corner is severely bent, no way I sent it like that .
72 rose graded a 7, bottom corner now dinged. probably still a legit 7 but an ugly one vs a high end one that it was
there are others but not on star cards.
another quality control issue, I did get a 75 mini graded that is at a minimum a 1/4 inch short. it graded a 6. it is comical looking at it in the holder it is so short. wish they would have min sized it like it should have been. didn't measure it before, it was a tough common that looked sharp so I sent it in.
If the Genamint scan is indeed done before grading AND the damage is occurring post scan then by comparing the scan to the holdered card should put us all in the right and entitle us to some form of compensation. I'm not going to hold out any hope for that happening though. They are very tight lipped about any of their processes and I doubt they will share any great detail about their findings in my open case with them.
I will gladly share any response I do receive though.
Nice to hear we all have company. I had a UD Griffey Jr rookie come back.. a 3??!! Took it out of a nice set. Still don't see why it graded what it did. Knew it looked really good (Grade 7 or better) when it left home.
Gretzky,Ripken, and Sandberg collection. Still trying to complete 1975 Topps baseball set from when I was a kid.
I submit cards through a group submitter . I sent a 1990 skybox prototype Magic Johnson probably a 10-20 raw card . My submitter messages me PSA damage my card during the slabbing process . Pinched it on the side during encapsulation . The card originally graded a 9 (500+ ) but was determined to be a 4 after damage . The only compensation I received was $10 , the original declared value of the card for shipping purpose. Seems like this is more common in recent months . New hires need better training ? Or is it just carelessness. Not sure of the solution just my thoughts .
looking for 1988 Fournier estrellas stickers , 1985 Prism Jewel stickers , anything Jesse Owens .
Ouch! Correct me if I am wrong, but the PSA submission form asks for declared value, right? If one puts a higher number, it could bump up the grading fees too, right? Since PSA damaged it, it seems they are only obligated to pay the declared value, not the market value from the price guide? If one puts the declared value at what the card would grade in PSA 10, but grades PSA 8, would there be a refund of the excess grading fee? You mentioned declared value for shipping purposes, but this did not happen during shipment. if shipping insurance was insufficient, there is no way to claim more for the damaged item later.
What lessons can we learn here to make future submissions safer for us, the consumer. Assuming some cards might get damaged during a submission process, what can we do to protect our collectibles in case this happens in terms of declared value, recourse, or other measures?
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
PSA is staffed by humans and on occasion, they will make mistakes. I wonder if the rate of mistakes is the same, but because the number of cards graded has increased it seems like more? \
the mark of a great company is how they respond to adversity. I hope PSA will come through and make the damages whole
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
im sure the post its are removed prior to them making it to the grading table.> @Jayman1982 said:
i prefer nightmare-enabler!
The 5 damaged cards are now being shipped back for a no charge Quality Assurance Review. Shipping from Canada will be reimbursed (as an account credit or USD cheque). This is the message I received from them outlining the process:
"Your request has been reviewed, and below I have provide instructions on how to send in the item(s) to PSA for investigation.
Once we receive your item(s) 54488985, 54488969, 54488962, 54488963, 54488988 at our secure facility and the submission has been entered into the system, you will receive an automated email letting you know, and the order will then appear under your PSA online account. From there, your order will be placed on a ‘hold’. Please don’t be alarmed as this is normal for all orders that are in process for CRC review. A Customer Relations Specialist will initiate a case to further review your request. After the investigation process has been finalized, you will be contacted by phone and/or email with more information.
If it is determined by PSA that an item was damaged while in PSA’s possession, compensation may be offered as outlined in PSA’s Terms and Conditions. If an item is determined not to have been damaged while in PSA’s possession, compensation will not be offered, and you will be contacted on how you would like to have the item(s) returned.
Quality Assurance Reviews do not have a set turnaround time due to the multi-step review process and the complexity of each case; however, we certainly try to review your case and contact you as quickly as possible."
Damage deemed to have occurred while in PSA possession will be subject to compensation based on their terms of service, here are those terms. As you can see, even inflating the declared value to cover yourself for future damage is futile:
"PSA will exercise reasonable care in handling items submitted for grading, review, or reholdering. However, if PSA determines that Customer's item was lost or damaged while in PSA's possession, Customer will be compensated based upon the fair market value of the item as determined by PSA standard procedures, which may include filing a claim with our insurance carrier. The declared value you provided with this submission is for estimating the insurance coverage only, and the fair market value of the item may be less than your declared value. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE TOTAL LIABILITY EXCEED THE DECLARED VALUE OF THE ITEM. Such compensation shall be Customer's exclusive remedy for any loss or damage. PSA reserves the right to decline your Declared Value and to require you to pay for the accurate Service Level as a condition of completing the authentication and grading process."
Very curious to see how my cards are reviewed, it is unfortunately very easy for them to cop out and say I submitted already damaged cards (except the one damaged Gem Mint). It's possible they were scanned before the damage and if so they may do the right thing and accept responsibility. My bigger concern here is seeing a similar 15% damage rate on my remaining 400+ value level cards...will keep this board posted as this progresses.
Thanks for sharing the update. It does sound like a process started. You did what you can so far, so just let the process take its course and hope for the best. One lesson here is that one should try to be realistic and accurate in terms of declared value of the cards being submitted. Declaring a higher value or a lower value compared to what the market would hold for a submitted card can have negative consequences.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
Got a call yesterday that 5 cards in my latest order (150+ value order) were damaged during encapsulation. Nothing amazing, but these are just the ones they caught. We’ll see if there’s any more when I get the sub back.
That's interesting, so QA worked in this case, it obviously doesn't prevent damage, but at least it was discovered and shows that some of the time it goes noticed. Did you get reimbursed to the tune of the latest realized pricing they have on file?
I'm still waiting on the 5 cards I sent back
The reimbursement was based on declared value, which wasn’t much.
this is the one thing that stinks, if the card graded high and was now worth a lot , you get an upcharge, if it gets damaged you get declared value. hopefully if there were potential upcharges in the rest of the order they go a bit more lenient.
this happened to a friend, a card that was damaged that they reached out to him about was worth 3-400 at the time. delared value was 20 bucks and they gave him the full 100 of the service as the cs rep felt bad. he did have a bunch of other cards grade high that were worth 500+ and he didn't get upcharged so I guess that is the balance.
best solution is less damage
This thread has been ongoing for a while but I just saw it. Your PSA 5 damage looks a lot like mine that i recently got back. The submission was otherwise all 10's and 9's That's frustrating.
Ya there's no way you missed that
Wish I could tell you what they said about me accusing them of doing that same thing to one of mine, but I am still in a holding pattern with that case.
I almost don't want to look at my GM 10's too closely. If i see dinged corners i might lose my mind.
PSA getting ready to grade a value submission: