Authorized Bulk Purchase Program = CARTEL
CopperWire
Posts: 492 ✭✭✭
Sounds like conspiracy to influence prices. We've all been thinking this for awhile now. What say yee fellow numismatists?
[EDIT] Good morning everyone. The thread is NO poof (so a big "poof you" to those who said it would disappear).
I did not say that APP is a criminal gang, I used the word CARTEL for a reason. Arguing semantics isn't worth my time but for the love of Pete, please make sure YOU understand the vocabulary I am using before posting a snide response with a photo of The Sopranos. Don't dumb down the conversation just because you don't understand the difference between a cartel and the mafia. A cartel does not pre-suppose unlawful actions.
"A cartel is a group of independent market participants who collude with each other in order to improve their profits and dominate the market. Cartels are usually associations in the same sphere of business, and thus an alliance of rivals. Most jurisdictions consider it anti-competitive behavior and have outlawed such practices. Cartel behavior includes price fixing, bid rigging, and reductions in output." --wikipedia accessed 11:12am PST sep. 20, 2021
Comments
I say...
I've been hearing conspiracies since the day I started with precious metals/coins. Not a single prediction ever came true. The enthusiasm of newcomers is always fun... gold, granola, & guns... the end is near........!
car·tel
/kärˈtel/
noun
an association of manufacturers or suppliers with the purpose of maintaining prices at a high level and restricting competition.
"the Colombian drug cartels"
nahhhhhhh
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
Boy, the CAC/Conspiracy threads are showing up more often, heavily traveled and quickly closed.
You all are keeping the mods busy!
This thread has nothing to do with CAC, and happy Sunday!!
or German auto makers: https://www.dw.com/en/eu-fines-german-carmakers-over-alleged-cartel-activities/a-58158329
the word means what it means and it applies to this situation. or maybe not, time will tell. isn't the purpose of the internet to spread conspiracies??
Authorized Purchasers of silver and gold American eagles, or guys like me who can buy bulk mint and proof sets or presidential dollars that few people collect; at 44% premium to face vs 47% ? ....a 3 or 4 % discount = Cartel ? Do tell !
There is mfg cost ( the mint gets to add all the premium)
Then there's jobber pricing ( a small mark up to middle man or that discount to bulk buyers, albeit small)
Then there is retail outlet. ( larger mark up to consumer)
The mint sells at the retail end and eBay determines actual fair market value, mostly.
We little fish In between are competing for morsels.
No cartel are coin geeks.
The only "cartel" are the Authorized Dealers of bullion, but they aren't allowed to set the price for the bullion.
The bulk purchase program gets (at most) 10% of the mintage and they have to PAY A PREMIUM OVER ISSUE PRICE to acquire it.
Calling it a cartel is assinine. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US COULD QUALIFY if you simply spend $500k per year on mint products.
... Working on some serious bad breath there...
In case anybody here would like to join the cartel, the application form can be found on the mint's website.
Cartel?? You must be joking...
Cheers, RickO
10,000 proof sets per year ought to qualify you. Lol
Cartel no.
Crap yes.
Cartel...
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
Is this an example of a coin acquired via the ABPP?
Link
This one is gonna last a long time.
Yes advance release. Where for twice the price you can own a coin that nobody else has 3-5 days earlier than the commoners.
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
Thanks for the information.
FWIW, currently at APMEX:
~ raw is $199.99 {Item #237041}
~ FS in PR70 is out of stock {Item #237045}
~ FDI in PR70 (pre-sale) is $339.99 {Item #237043}
~ Advanced Release in PR70 (pre-sale) is $599.99 {Item #237042}
this is how the Mint has operated for decades, why is everyone suddenly upset about it??
They keep locking the CAC threads- got to have something to be unhappy about.
Actually, this program is new as of March.
If only CAC would start stickering modern mint stuff we could get the best of both worlds.
Fweep!!! Unsportsmanlike Conduct! Intentional morphing of topic into CAC thread!
Yeah @MasonG , what were you thinking?
Because calling coin dealers a "cartel" is sportsmanship. [And you wonder why they don't advertise their participation in the program. ]
They're dealers. Doesn't matter what they do, somebody will be unhappy. 🤷
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
I foresaw the the trajectory and conclusion to this inane thread.
You’re welcome.
Did you? Please stop hijacking the thread to talk about CAC, I told you once already that this thread has nothing to do with CAC
Thats right this is the story of you and
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
IBL
100% positive transactions with SurfinxHI, bigole, 1madman, collectorcoins, proofmorgan, Luke Marshall, silver pop, golden egg, point five zero,coin22lover, alohagary, blaircountycoin,joebb21
No, it doesn't. It's just plain insulting.
If we have descended into insults then I say to you sir: Poof you! Shall we get our seconds and the pistols?
It is just the biggest costumers / people who buy up more or bulk getting special delivery / exclusivity options for being such. Like any other business treats their better customers. The mint is a business as set up by Congress right? The fact that they throw most of / the best products to the open access mint direct, speaks to the Gov side of the house/equation and not the business side.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Here is a perspective on the ABPP.
Love this👆
100% positive transactions with SurfinxHI, bigole, 1madman, collectorcoins, proofmorgan, Luke Marshall, silver pop, golden egg, point five zero,coin22lover, alohagary, blaircountycoin,joebb21
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Given that the ABBP get, at most. 10% of production, they'd have a really hard time controlling anything.
Deleted
The behavior you suggest (market collusion including bid rigging, price fixing, etc.) is a criminal activity under the Sherman Anti-Trust Act in most scenarios; thus, when you use the term "cartel," you imply criminal wrong doing. I don't like the Mint program, but I wouldn't call it a cartel.
CAC is the end all, be all of 99% of this hobby. It is the alpha and omega... Unless it stickers, how do we know the items aren't overpriced dreck?
Whatever people think of CAC, they don’t assess moderns, so it has nothing to do with this thread. Interjecting it here would appear to be an attempt at humor and/or stirring the pot.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
“Whatever people think of CAC, they don’t assess moderns”
Finally, you have acknowledged my beloved MS Ike Dollars are classics!
Wondercoin
I'll reserve further comment other than to say there should be absolutely NOTHING to hide if all is kosher. There are obviously profits to be had for the participants, and they are not compelled to buy in any case. If it is such a losing proposition to participate, why would anybody and why would they object to publication of names - unless there is less than truth being passed. Simple as that, a logical trap for them.
IMO not a cartel, just unfair and questionable ethics that are perhaps SOP for some.
Well, just Love coins, period.
protecting the privacy of others is not the same as "hiding" public information. Should the mint publicly provide the credit card numbers of its customers as well?
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
You don't even need to go to credit card numbers. Just providing the names of its customers would be problematic. Then you have the names of loyalty program participants.
This has NOTHING to do with transparencies. Find me the thread where anyone complained about not knowing the name of Mint bulk purchasers? Those people actually get a DISCOUNT. ABBP participants PAY A PREMIUM. So, why has no one ever cared about the bulk purchasers? It's because they don't get access to new releases until AFTER THE RELEASE date, so they aren't competing for the "rarities".
This is not about transparency. It's about selfish self-interest. The whiners here pretend that a perfectly normal business practice is somehow nefarious because they think it is preventing THEM from profiting from new releases.
Why is no one complaining about subscriptions and asking for their names? After all, the subscribers also got their coins BEFORE release and they actually paid LESS than the ABBP participants without needing to spend $500k to do it.
Where is the "unsee" button for this thread? I really want one added; it was my mistake to open this tin foil wrapped dung and I want time moved back to 3 minutes ago so I wouldn't click on this thread.
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
Ok, the trolls above got another reaction out of me: It has everything to do with transparency. It is not whining - this is calling a spade a spade. This DOES affect others who buy mint purchases, as it affects what they pay for, and access to mint products - there is no comparison to knowing credit numbers. Yea, let's go back to non-competitive bidded Fed contracts while we are at it. That we think it fair if people are getting preferential treatment and that the knowledge be public? Heave forbid, no let us leave "deals" to the dark secret hallways.
As to paying the premium: I already touched on that - if it is not an advantage, then the program is voluntary and withdrawal is always the option - obviously that is NOT the truth. Bulk purchasers represent a much lesser problem as these are on government issues that are essentially unlimited. NOT THE SAME THING. It is about the self-interests of the participants not those of us playing fair and that have been loyal mint customers [and NOT flippers], period so don't get that twisted as that sounds a lot like some of the political rhetoric to which we are subjected.
And while we are at it, yea, call us whiners who want the basic truth of such deals and want a level playing field. I support Coin World in its inquiry needless to say.
Well, just Love coins, period.
Why you guys hard on CAC? I like Avocados.
California Avocado Commission
Guac’s going on anyway 🙀
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶