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The Angels and Trout...
olb31
Posts: 2,946 ✭✭✭✭✭
Once again the high flying/paying Angels are far removed from the playoffs. Nothing new. And I just read where a "calf strain" will keep Mike Trout from playing the rest of the season. Once believed to be a 6 week hiatus turned into a 4 1/2 month hiatus. This can't be boding well for his priced cards. One I believe sold for several million. He basically took the year off and they only played a third of the season last year.
Work hard and you will succeed!!
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his fragility is certainly putting a damper on his future status as a all time great
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Not long ago, I would have said Trout was the best player in baseball. Now he is the second best player on his team.
that is correct.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Father time is the ultimate equalizer. What will 2022 bring for Trout? Hard to say.
I predict a complete bounce back. However they are going to move him off CF so his value will not be as high. He will still be the best player of his generation.
I hope his cards dip in price so I can pick up more. He is a generational talent and even if he tapers off, he will still be remembered as one of the best of all time.
I agree that injuries during his prime are robbing him of being in the upper pantheon of all time baseball players. He can still right the ship but with his body type, I don't see him staying healthy. Hopefully I am wrong.
Robb
might be 3rd next year now that they got rendons injury finally figured out.
Yeah, I am not convinced. He is a great player, don't doubt me, but I think his mythical status is based entirely off of his WAR figures. By traditional measures he is simply great, not an all-timer. Never led the league in homers, never led the league in hits. Never been part of a winning team, and his has lost with him and without him. An on base machine isn't very sexy at all. Compared to other inner circle HOFers he's just alright. I don't think he'll be talked about much 20 years from now.
I have a few high end Trout cards but I wouldn't mind if prices went down just a tad so I can pick up another. History as shown that prices will rise back up. Just look at Pujols RC cards. Stagnant year after year after year and suddenly, boom. Up they went as he inches closer to retirement.
Centauri,
He was top 5 in MVP voting 9 years in a row with three 1sts and four 2nds...who else has done that?
As for winning, how is that working out for Shohei? Baseball is a sport where being great doesn't necessarily translate to your team winning. I think Trout made a mistake committing to the Angels long term, he would have been much better off moving to the Dodgers or Yankees.
Anyway, more a discussion for the Sports Talk forums but just as rookie cards of Pujols and Cabrera languished as they stopped producing on the field, any downturn in Trout cards should be bought IMO. Trout's cards will be worth more in 10-15 years than now regardless of how he does on the field going forward.
Robb
Trout is overrated. He is ridiculously hyped as being in the same category as all-time greats like Ruth, Mays, and Mantle by those with a vested interest. If it is not the MLB/MLB media trying to utilize him as their face of the sport much like Tom Brady or Lebron for their respective sports it is by collectors who have investments and do everything they can to try to convince themselves and others that he is the greatest of all time. All of this is simply based on the wildly inaccurate belief in WAR.
If you look at the careers of similar great players like Pujols and Cabrera you will notice that once they hit 32 they saw a rather big drop off in productivity. Trout will be 31 next year. Pujols had been to 3 World Series and won 2 before he hit 32. He has an incredible 19 playoff home runs with an average of .323. He won 3 MVP's as well with numbers that were much better than Trouts three MVPs. Cabrera had a ring and played in 2 world series prior to turning 32. He also has 13 playoff homers. He had 2 MVP's where his numbers were much better than Trout's MVP seasons and also won the Triple Crown which has only been done a handful of times in the history of the game.
the point being, these accomplishments seem to almost be lost on everyone as the entire focus of the MLB and its fanbase seem to dismiss these accomplishments in place of their golden child who has yet to even win a playoff game and whose career accomplishments can be summed up with a rather ineffective stat (WAR).
Trout is a great player but I will not be surprised if Bryce Harper ends up with a better career after all is said and done.
this is actually pretty wise info. my only fears is there seems to have been a lot more talks of hgh , a possible exemption and/or even a secret suspension being imposed. im not buying into these conspiracy theories but i would say its prolly stopping me from doing exactly what you suggested which, again, is pretty solid.
as per the secret suspension crap, i think its just that but the initial 6 week supposed injury that somehow turned into the rest of the year has only provided more fodder for the rumor mills to spin.
most of Trouts value has come from his ability to take walks and plays center field (poorly i may add) I am not a big fan of positional adjustments that are so valuable to WAR. I consider the first 10 years of Pujols career much more valuable than Trouts, even though WAR may disagree.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I haven't heard these people, but I'll take your word for it that they exist. But you just named, arguably, the three greatest players of all time, leaving open the possibility that Trout is the fourth greatest player of all time.
The word "overrated" is magical, because it means whatever the person using it wants it to mean. You, like most everyone else, don't so much as attempt to define it. That means you can't be wrong when you say it, but it also means that what you said is meaningless.
If Trout leaves baseball today, he will have had a better career than Joe DiMaggio or Duke Snider, and a whole lot more players whose legacies will live on long after we're gone. I can't do anything about the benighted masses who aren't smart enough to understand that "rings" and talent are two separate topics; pity them and move on. But, the people who do understand what baseball is and how it works will remember Trout as in a class with DiMaggio. If Trout does come back and picks up where he left off, he'll be remembered in a class with Ted Williams. Again, by the people whose opinions matter, and I think there are more than enough of them to keep his card prices up where they belong.
Trout will be an obvious HOFer so his cards will always hold some value - but I don't think he'll hold the same kind of position in the hobby long term. His greatness does not translate to awe like a home run guy, or a high average guy. I think he'll end up more like Musial - unabashedly great, but also quite often forgotten.
These threads always make me smile. For the longest time, I was the lone voice in the wilderness. It's good to see the surge of people finally coming around to the truth.
I don't know anything about a super secret suspension, but I do know that exactly how Mike Trout fits into the Tyler Skaggs story has not yet been worked out. Angels tickets and Mike Trout autographs were mentioned as the currency of choice while he was off "rehabbing an injury", along with the revelation that there were 5 other unnamed players (whose identities have so far been kept from being leaked) that were receiving drugs from this Angels employee. Hmmm...
Now, if any of you remember Double D's 2020 Christmas thread, you should be aware of the real reason for Trout's struggles to stay on the field. Knowing Trout's propensity for just standing there and watching things go by, i.e. called strike 3s, I appropriated him for a secondary use, my "Elf on the Shelf".
.
.
Once the holidays were over, though, it was back to work at the primary job around The Count's house...
Pin cushion!
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I was just messing around, but apparently the Dark Arts are nothing to be trifled with! Who would have had any idea that it would actually work, though? 🤷
Having said that...
Those pins are NEVER coming out!
BWAAAAA-HAAAAA-HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA-HAAAAA-HAAAAAAAAAA!!!😈⚡⚡⚡
A lot of red on the back of this card. Don’t think you would find anyone with more.
Not even that.... He doesn't play
Trout would blow away like a feather if you shook his hand. Huge liability for the angels. NOBODY!!! And I mean NOBODY in sports should be paid that much. It only hurts the team!!!!
Whats the big HOF number there though? He won't sniff 3000 hits or 500 HR's at this rate...Doesn't hit a lot of Doubles and honestly not a lot RBI. Big OPS and WAR and scores a lot of Runs but nothing else really stands out on there or am I missing something that makes me go wow because I am sad I can't go wow right now except he scores a lot and lead the league in SB one year.... Also all that red needs to = some level of winning or it's just lost on Joe Public. Just to hear about him is one thing but to never make the playoffs in a pretty easy AL West where the no name A's win it just about every year has to say something!!
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
and boot licker extraordinaire, Jeff Passan, will still give him his vote for 2021 AL MVP
Unless otherwise specified my posts represent only my opinion, not fact.
How is he not on pace for 500 home runs? He is 29 years old and has 310. If he plays until 36 he has 7 years he needs to average 27 home runs. This year he had 8 in only 36 games. Last year he had 17 in 53.
because he can't stay on the field long enough to get to 500?
Exactly ^
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
I honestly believe if he never signed that contract KNOWING it would hurt the team...... None of this world be an issue. A lot of money does make people lazy. It's just the truth.
Show of hands - who here has ever insisted on being paid less than your employer offered because you were concerned it might "hurt the company"?
Yeah, that's what I thought. It sure is easy to be magnanimous with other people's money, though, isn't it?
I can tell you I have taken less so other members of my team could get more. It happens.
wow, 30 years old and we are talking about father time. not disagreeing but that is rough!
you know where I DONT see a lot of red? how about hits, doubles, triples, HR, Rbi, SB and BA
WAR likes that he is good at taking walks and that he plays Cf
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
its not that 30 is old or to even be talking about father time, but juan soto is only 22, already approaching 100 home runs w 2 covid seasons, has a batting title, a world series ring, a possible 2nd batting title coming and so many other nerd stats that are insane. i am biased since thats my guy, but im sure theres a few more studs out there that mirror soto and will out perform what trout has done. and if he keeps missing prime years w/o other serious accomplishments, he will slowly fade from the goat debates he’s lucky enough to be in now.
Just so we're clear, you are talking about the player with the 9th highest slugging average in MLB history, 3rd behind only Ruth and Williams if you throw out the 1930's and steroid junkies, and saying that WAR "likes that he is good at taking walks"? I said this before - I think about Joe Morgan - and I'll say it again: you have had the opportunity to watch one of the greatest players to ever play the game and you missed it. I think that's sad.
Huh on contract?
AAV on baseball’s top 12 largest total $ contracts:
Trout $35,541,667
Betts $30,416,667
Lindor $34,100,000
Tatis $24,286,714 (not apples to apples because it bought out his arbitration years)
Harper $25,384,615
Stanton $25,000,000 (not apples to apples because bought out arbitration years)
Cole $36,000,000
Machado $30,000,000
Arenado $32,500,000
Cabrera $32,000,000
Strasberg $35,000,000
Rendon $35,000,000
Seems like right about market to me and maybe even a small home town discount. His own team is paying another guy $541,667 less dollars. I think you have no idea the going rate of superstar players. The difference between he and Rendon almost pays one guy at the MLB minimum.
If the Angels put Trout on the block there would be several interested teams at full value who would even give up prospects to get him.
If Trout were on the Yankees, his cards would be double the value.
The point isn’t that Trout is a bad player - he’s great. But things like slugging percentage and OBP are just not sexy - and sexy is what will drive card values in the future.
Here are Trouts average stats first 10 years
125 94 138 26 5 30 80 20 84 304 418 582 1.000
Here are Mays average stats first 10 years
123 88 149 24 9 28 82 20 57 316 389 583 972
Looks like Trout is almost the same player as Mays on offense through the first 10 seasons. I mean I guess Trout is over rated.
and:
valid point. see. im not sniffing gorilla glue 4. people are really sleeping on rendon.
That's because we live in reality.... They don't
He is
Trout is no Mickey Mantle! Mickey actually won world series starting off! That's the most important stat!
Why you bringing me into this Bobby? You been drinking that begsu1013 again 😉
How much did it sale for is one of the funniest and most ignorant things I've ever heard.
Trout has great numbers. But the ones that count the most are wins and championships. His team has a hard time finishing out of the basement year after year. he doesn't seem to be a difference maker.
so if we throw out a bunch of players then Trout is 3rd all time in slugging %. how convenient. well, if we take out both ruth and williams because they played before 1947 then trout is number 1 right? not quite how it works there Dallas.
you cant just remove players because them being part of a list is inconvenient for your thesis.
you are also not allowing for any decline. you can bet that trout will not finish his career at #9. this is probably near peak for him. he will continue to have big and nagging injuries from here on out.
as for the "steroid junkies" you do realize that steroids and ped were not against the rules of MLB until 2005 right? any player who used steroids, greenies, amphetamines, hgh, andro or any other supplement were playing within the rules. after 2005 there were collectively bargained PED rules and penalties for such.
as far as Trout being one of the greatest players to ever play the game. I would disagree. he is really good at taking walks. and if it was not for his positional adjustment for playing CF (at an average to below average level) his WAR would not be glowing like it does now. watch those numbers drop when he is playing LF and DH for most of the rest of his career.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Well, I think you need to go back through this thread and see the various "points" being made. I agree that to the degree the point is future card values, chicks and uneducated baseball fans dig the long ball and RBI and Trout's card values may well not reflect his utter dominance of the sport for a decade. But, there are also "points" being made to the effect that Trout is overpaid, overrated, the third best player on his team, doesn't have "rings", and other evidence of extreme mental defects. It's those "points" that are causing my eyes to bleed and that I'm railing against. I don't buy modern cards because numbered purple prizm chrome refractors also make my eyes bleed, but if this thread is representative of the collecting community at large, then I'd be wary of overpaying for Trout cards, too. But I still think it's sad that so many people didn't realize that they were watching one of the greatest players of all time.
i can certainly get on board with switching out “all” for “his” time. at this point in the game w reserving the right to change that opinion if deemed necessary. and thats not a knock at all. i certainly do wish that i & everyone else had the opportunity to see him more in the post season. that falls more on the angels than it does on trout. granted he did get paid, but i also award serious loyalty points for sticking it out w the angels. most guys these days would put a slightly bigger paycheck and opportunity to play on bigger stages first and foremost.
If you make that switch then you also have to remove "one of". But why make any switch? He is one of the greatest players of all time.
You could give seminars in missing the point. You made some bizarre statement about Trout's walks that might have made an ounce of sense if you had made it about Ferris Fain. But you made it about the player who is ninth all-time in slugging, and it made my eyes bleed.
It helps when you are playing with HOF players. How many HOF players has Trout had besides the already washed up Pujols?
you are putting all this emphasis on trouts slg % at a point in his career where he only has 4600 at bats. There have been other players in history who ranked as highly as trout for half a career. it is fairly meaningless to rank someone on slg this early on. through 5400 at bats, frank thomas was slugging almost exactly the same as trout through 4600. well, thomas dropped off during his second half as nearly all players do. Pujols slugged .624 through 5700 at bats. well better than trout. what happened, he dropped off. what will happen to trout? he well continue to get injured and most likely drop off as well. i bet in 10 more years, he will be lucky to still be in the top 20 in slugging.
not sure what is so bizarre about my stating that trout is really good at drawing walks. he is right? that is the best part of his game.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
You could teach PhD level seminars in missing the point. I completely understand that Trout's career, so far, is a short one and that his averages are very likely to decline. But that wasn't the point - nay, it wasn't remotely relevant - of any of my posts. My post was directed at what YOU said. I marvel at how quickly you are running away from what you said, but unless you can run faster than the speed of light and turn back time you still said it. YOU said that a player whose slugging average is the 9th best in MLB history (at the moment, what happens in the future being an unrelated topic) had a high WAR because he walks a lot and plays CF. What you said was nonsense, and I pointed that out. That was the sole point of my post. The end.
Trout couldn't catch a Trout
I guess I'm very confused. It's claimed that the A's win the A.L. West nearly every year (three times in Trout's eleven seasons) and that Trout having the 9th best slugging percentage of all time isn't important because the thing he does best is walk. Parenthetically, if a player whose best thing is walks has that good a slugging percentage, then I REALLY want him on my team.
Regarding future WAR. if Trout can continue to have a 176 OPS+ while providing the defensive value of David Ortiz then I'm thrilled. By the way, Ortiz finished his career with a 141 OPS+.
Comparing apples to apples, his JAWS is already higher than Griffey's. Stop and think about this for a moment. If Trout's injury is career ending, by JAWS he'd finish as the fifth best Centerfielder of all time, behind Mantle, Speaker, Cobb, and Mays. This at a point in his career where he's exactly twenty days older than a serious Rookie of the Year candidate (Patrick Wisdom).
Does the argument against Trout being an elite power hitter go something like "Well, Giancarlo Stanton takes fewer at bats per home run than Trout does."
I don't agree with @dallasactuary on everything, but Trout has to be considered, to this point in his career, to be numbered with Bonds and Ruth as a candidate for the best player of all time, and it is sad that many of you had the chance to watch him and threw it away.