Zions- yes strong prices on major proof error coins that are dramatic and high grade. The trend that anyone can see is strong prices in the Heritage Auctions.
Quickly looking at the last 3 Heritage sales, here are a few listed below. Several of these were pictured above in this thread.
CENTRAL STATES HERITAGE:
•Proof Ike Dollar 3 leaf mated clover $105,000.
•Proof Ike Dollar Off-Center $26,400.
ANA HERITAGE:
•Proof Ike Dollar 50% off-center $16,800.
•Proof Kennedy Half Double Struck $9,600.
•Proof Ike Dollar Mis-Aligned Die $5,760.
Bosner HERITAGE
(last night):
• Proof Cent on Dime $7,500.
• Proof Kennedy Half on Nickel blank $4,320.
•Proof Triple Struck Dime $3,840.
•Proof Kennedy Half DS BS $4,680.
•Proof Ike Dollar Clad DSBS $ 6,600.
I’m sure that the strong trend will continue with the prices realized for the upcoming proof error coins in the Heritage Long Beach sale.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
2ltdjorn- the Heritage Auction WAS exciting. Can’t wait until the Heritage Sept Long Beach Auction!
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
Here are 2 dramatic proof errors in the upcoming Heritage Sept Long Beach Auction:
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
The Kennedy Half pictured above in the upcoming Heritage Auction, is more dramatic than the one that sold last night in the Bosner Sale for $4,680.
The Ike Dollar pictured above, also in the upcoming sale, is multi struck ( rarer) not double struck like the one that sold last night for $6.600.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
Record prices for U.S. proof errors in the Heritage Long Beach Auction a few days ago. There were only 5 proof errors in the session and all 5 realized strong prices.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Fred’s error coins have not been auctioned yet by Heritage.
The Cricket is being auctioned on Halloween by GC and has over 8,000 views so far.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
Chris- you are correct. Very strong prices for error coins in both Heritage sales ( Sept Long Beach and Oct Monthly Errors)
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
@Byers said:
Record prices for U.S. proof errors in the Heritage Long Beach Auction a few days ago. There were only 5 proof errors in the session and all 5 realized strong prices.
These prices look very strong Mike!
Compare this $15,600.00 price to other recent sales below. Modern proof errors seem to be increasing strongly.
I think that your 3 reasons sum it up perfectly! Proof errors are very strong right now. There was a temporary supply available recently, as noted by Jon Sullivan, but it appears to have been dispersed and prices are subsequently moving upwards again, with very strong prices realized in 2 Heritage Auctions this week!
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
Zions- in the Heritage ANA Auction, where some prices for proof errors dipped lower, subsequently 3 Heritage Auctions in a row have shown that prices have not only rebounded, but also increased.
The proof Kennedy double struck off-center and not even a flip- over, brought $15,600.
Here is another example:
I purchased in the Heritage ANA Auction a proof Ike Dollar double struck on a clad half blank NGC PF 68!! for a ridiculously low $6300.
Basically the same coin in only NGC PR 65 a few days ago in Heritage realized 12k!!
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
Here is the PR 68 NGC from the Heritage ANA Auction at $6300 that I purchased:
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
@Byers said:
Record prices for U.S. proof errors in the Heritage Long Beach Auction a few days ago. There were only 5 proof errors in the session and all 5 realized strong prices.
These prices look very strong Mike!
Compare this $15,600.00 price to other recent sales below. Modern proof errors seem to be increasing strongly.
people that grew up with these coins now have bigger budgets and are coming into their own, making waves in collecting
proof errors are very rare
proof errors are beautiful
If these are the trends, modern, proof errors could have a strong future.
I respectfully disagree that Proof errors are very rare, unless you wish to specify Proof errors before 1965.
The Proof errors after 1967 were deliberately manufactured in quantity.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@Byers said:
Record prices for U.S. proof errors in the Heritage Long Beach Auction a few days ago. There were only 5 proof errors in the session and all 5 realized strong prices.
These prices look very strong Mike!
Compare this $15,600.00 price to other recent sales below. Modern proof errors seem to be increasing strongly.
people that grew up with these coins now have bigger budgets and are coming into their own, making waves in collecting
proof errors are very rare
proof errors are beautiful
If these are the trends, modern, proof errors could have a strong future.
I respectfully disagree that Proof errors are very rare, unless you wish to specify Proof errors before 1965.
The Proof errors after 1967 were deliberately manufactured in quantity.
TD
How many in number does rare mean to you?
Coins can be both rare and deliberately made. For example, the Washington Sac mules are almost certainly deliberately made but they are also almost certainly rare.
Zions- of course you are right! Over 20 Sac mules known and still worth between 100k and 200k😉
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
TD- no one is disputing that after 1967 there were some deliberatelly made proof errors.
The market and auctions are unquestionably proving that they are in demand based on the prices that they bring.😉
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
TD you stated that “ I respectfully disagree that Proof errors are very rare, unless you wish to specify Proof errors before 1965.
The Proof errors after 1967 were deliberately manufactured in quantity.”
With all due respect, that is not entirely accurate. There are many unique and rare proof errors, where even after 50 years, no more have surfaced.
Was this proof Ike Dollar in BRONZE deliberately struck? Obviously most likely.
Was it produced in quantity? Highly UNLIKELY. To date, it’s unique after 50 years.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
The bronze Ike is awesome Mike! The color and deep, watery fields are amazing on it.
@CaptHenway which modern proof errors do you think are common? Outside of clashed dies, rotated dies and unstruck planchets (which all seem accidental), the ones I’ve seen all seem either unique or pretty rare to me.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
I respectfully disagree that Proof errors are very rare, unless you wish to specify Proof errors before 1965.
The Proof errors after 1967 were deliberately manufactured in quantity.
TD
How many in number does rare mean to you?
Coins can be both rare and deliberately made. For example, the Washington Sac mules are almost certainly deliberately made but they are also almost certainly rare.
What is the population of the SFAO deliberate errors as a group? I would estimate that as a group they number in the few to several hundreds. A thousand is not impossible, but probably unlikely. I do not consider them to be very rare.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I respectfully disagree that Proof errors are very rare, unless you wish to specify Proof errors before 1965.
The Proof errors after 1967 were deliberately manufactured in quantity.
TD
How many in number does rare mean to you?
Coins can be both rare and deliberately made. For example, the Washington Sac mules are almost certainly deliberately made but they are also almost certainly rare.
What is the population of the SFAO deliberate errors as a group? I would estimate that as a group they number in the few to several hundreds. A thousand is not impossible, but probably unlikely. I do not consider them to be very rare.
That’s an interesting perspective. If everything is considered as a group then is anything rare? For example, 1894-S dimes wouldn’t be rare if Barber dimes were considered as a group.
Grouping together the unique proof Bronze Ike Dollar with the hundreds of combined proof errors known, and coming to the conclusion that the proof Bronze Ike Dollar isn’t unique or rare, is like saying that the 1894S Dimes are not rare since there are thousands of Barber Dimes.
There are unique and very rare U.S. proof major errors, and many that are not. The same applies to Barber Dimes. The 1894S is very rare, and thousands are not.
It’s just common sense.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
Grouping together the unique proof Bronze Ike Dollar with the hundreds of combined proof errors known, and coming to the conclusion that the proof Bronze Ike Dollar isn’t unique or rare, is like saying that the 1894S Dimes are not rare since there are thousands of Barber Dimes.
There are unique and very rare U.S. proof major errors, and many that are not. The same applies to Barber Dimes. The 1894S is very rare, and thousands are not.
It’s just common sense.
I agree it’s common sense that the unique bronze Ike is rare. I can understand saying it was deliberately made, but saying it’s not rare requires too much mental gymnastics for me.
The statement that I challenged was, and I quote, “proof errors are very rare.”
If “proof errors” number in the hundreds, then “proof errors” are not very rare. You might reasonably say that “die pair x” struck on “planchet y” or “struck coin z” is very rare and be unquestionably right, but “proof errors” as the group that you cite are not, in my opinion, “very rare.”
That’s just common sense.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I know your comment was addressing Zions’ quote “proof errors are very rare”.
If the total number of proof errors over the last 50 years is in the hundreds, then obviously they are rare. Some major types of errors are unique and some might have ten known. But overall they are rare, when compared to other segments of numismatics.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
@CaptHenway said:
The statement that I challenged was, and I quote, “proof errors are very rare.”
If “proof errors” number in the hundreds, then “proof errors” are not very rare. You might reasonably say that “die pair x” struck on “planchet y” or “struck coin z” is very rare and be unquestionably right, but “proof errors” as the group that you cite are not, in my opinion, “very rare.”
That’s just common sense.
I see what you’re saying but I don’t think your approach is common sense.
For example, people will generally say patterns are rare (because each type is rare), not that they are common (because there are many in aggregate). Same goes for other pieces like Lesher Dollars, Elder pieces, and others.
I think you are trying to make a point, but using an unusual way to do so.
There are thousands of U.S. patterns, yet they are considered rare. There are hundreds of proof errors, and are considered rare.
I looked at the Heritage archives for proof U.S. errors from highest price to $250. Almost 300 showed up. There was such a wide variety of different types of errors and denominations. It looks the same when searching patterns- a wide variety.
It’s not logical to say that patterns are not rare since there are thousands. There are thousands but many are unique and very rare.
It’s not logical to say that proof errors are not rare since there are hundreds. There are hundreds but many are unique and rare.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
Some proof errors were most likely deliberately struck. So were some mint state error coins. Here is the famous Lincoln Cent bonded to a magnetic screw that was most likely an intentional mint error that was struck. It’s an amazing mint error!
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
I would not automatically assume that this screw struck into a coin is intentional. Back in the 70’s and early 80’s an ANA Summer Seminar course included a floor tour of the Denver Mint. It always began in the Superintendent’s office, and after she welcomed us one of her assistants would pass around a large display board full of wild errors. One of them was a coin (half dollar?) with a coil spring struck into it.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
TD- you have an interesting point. Maybe the Lincoln Cent bonded with a magnetic screw wasn’t intentional.
When I was 17 I also did the ANA Seminar floor tour of the Denver Mint. The Superintendent used a large bonded Cent cluster as her door stopper.
At 17 years old I published my first coin catalog that included a 1900 Gold Indian Cent from the Beck Collection. Also for sale was the $20 Lib struck on a Large Cent blank. (Viewable on my website).
Even dealing with five figure mint errors in 1975 at 17 years old, I was fascinated by the Cent bonded cluster. I would estimate it was 50 to 60 coins and blows away everything that has come out since.
She allowed me to study it but kept watching me. I will never forget admiring the cluster.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
@Byers said:
TD- you have an interesting point. Maybe the Lincoln Cent bonded with a magnetic screw wasn’t intentional.
When I was 17 I also did the ANA Seminar floor tour of the Denver Mint. The Superintendent used a large bonded Cent cluster as her door stopper.
At 17 years old I published my first coin catalog that included a 1900 Gold Indian Cent from the Beck Collection. Also for sale was the $20 Lib struck on a Large Cent blank. (Viewable on my website).
Even dealing with five figure mint errors in 1975 at 17 years old, I was fascinated by the Cent bonded cluster. I would estimate it was 50 to 60 coins and blows away everything that has come out since.
She allowed me to study it but kept watching me. I will never forget admiring the cluster.
Did you see the board with the errors? Basically it was a thick piece of wood or plywood roughly two feet wide and 18 inches high with various size and shape holes routed through it, with a sheet of lucite or the like riveted to the front and to the back. The edges and corners were rounded off, and the whole thing was a bit scuffy from repeated handling.
Inside the holes were wonders, including the piece with the spring struck into it.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
If you look at the auction results for Heritage, you'll see the vast majority of major proof errors (such as double-strikes, off-metals, etc) have come onto the market in the later half of 2019-present. Obviously a group is being broken up and sold.
What this means in terms of rarity or values, only time and seeing what comes out in the future will tell. I think prices will be very mixed for the foreseeable future, with rarities and values going up or down on a coin by coin basis.
With proof errors as a whole, in light of the recent coins on the market, are they as rare are they were 5 years ago? No. Are they more rare than business strikes for the most part, absolutely (but not in all cases!)
TD- no I did not see the board with the errors, but it sounds really cool!
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
TD- on the Mint floor tour, there were error coins all over on the floor and in a small bin. It was a fascinating tour!
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
@CaptHenway said:
I would not automatically assume that this screw struck into a coin is intentional. Back in the 70’s and early 80’s an ANA Summer Seminar course included a floor tour of the Denver Mint. It always began in the Superintendent’s office, and after she welcomed us one of her assistants would pass around a large display board full of wild errors. One of them was a coin (half dollar?) with a coil spring struck into it.
Very interesting. I wonder if the cent was used as a handle for the screw so a screw driver would not be needed. If so, it would be like the dime on a name that was used provide a place to hold the nail when used with the press, like the flat part of a knitting needle.
It would be fascinating if it can be determined that this was accidentally struck during the normal minting process.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
@Byers said:
TD- on the Mint floor tour, there were error coins all over on the floor and in a small bin. It was a fascinating tour!
Yeah, they always stressed the "NO FREE SAMPLES!" rule before we went in. Before my time there some student on a tour pocketed something and the Mint guy who was watching the group from a distance waited until everybody was gathered in one room before exiting and he walked up to the guy and said, loudly and in front of everybody: "I THINK YOU HAVE SOMETHING OF OURS!" and held out a hand. The guy handed it over and when the bus got back to Colorado SPrings the guy was ordered to leave the campus NOW!
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
Comments
Zions- yes strong prices on major proof error coins that are dramatic and high grade. The trend that anyone can see is strong prices in the Heritage Auctions.
Quickly looking at the last 3 Heritage sales, here are a few listed below. Several of these were pictured above in this thread.
CENTRAL STATES HERITAGE:
•Proof Ike Dollar 3 leaf mated clover $105,000.
•Proof Ike Dollar Off-Center $26,400.
ANA HERITAGE:
•Proof Ike Dollar 50% off-center $16,800.
•Proof Kennedy Half Double Struck $9,600.
•Proof Ike Dollar Mis-Aligned Die $5,760.
Bosner HERITAGE
(last night):
• Proof Cent on Dime $7,500.
• Proof Kennedy Half on Nickel blank $4,320.
•Proof Triple Struck Dime $3,840.
•Proof Kennedy Half DS BS $4,680.
•Proof Ike Dollar Clad DSBS $ 6,600.
I’m sure that the strong trend will continue with the prices realized for the upcoming proof error coins in the Heritage Long Beach sale.
great insight. appreciative of such readily sharing of knowledge. I thought the auction was exciting, the market is humming.
always look forward to reports, and newp emails.
fred, will miss you much and have always enjoyed your table at shows!
2ltdjorn- the Heritage Auction WAS exciting. Can’t wait until the Heritage Sept Long Beach Auction!
Here are 2 dramatic proof errors in the upcoming Heritage Sept Long Beach Auction:
Wow! Mike @Byers, that PF68 UCAM and PR68* CAM are awesome and hard to beat.
From the photos, they look more impressive to me than the super high pieces from yesterday!
Zions-
The Kennedy Half pictured above in the upcoming Heritage Auction, is more dramatic than the one that sold last night in the Bosner Sale for $4,680.
The Ike Dollar pictured above, also in the upcoming sale, is multi struck ( rarer) not double struck like the one that sold last night for $6.600.
I am looking forward to the Baltimore show as well. It's driveable for me. Thanks for the report. Peace Roy
BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall, coinsarefun, MichaelDixon, NickPatton, ProfLiz, Twobitcollector,Jesbroken oih82w8, DCW
Record prices for U.S. proof errors in the Heritage Long Beach Auction a few days ago. There were only 5 proof errors in the session and all 5 realized strong prices.
Was that Fred’s stuff?
How did the cricket do?
Fred’s error coins have not been auctioned yet by Heritage.
The Cricket is being auctioned on Halloween by GC and has over 8,000 views so far.
Mike, wow very nice coins. The proof errors are on fire right now.
The Heritage auction was brutal as I got blown out on some very strong bids on exceptional coins.
Fun to watch.
Apparently it would do better if GC had described it as Proof 65 then a business strike
Broadstruck- or described as ‘SPECIMEN 65’. 😉
Chris- you are correct. Very strong prices for error coins in both Heritage sales ( Sept Long Beach and Oct Monthly Errors)
These prices look very strong Mike!
Compare this $15,600.00 price to other recent sales below. Modern proof errors seem to be increasing strongly.
For the error dealers, what do you think is causing the strength in modern proof errors? @Byers, @SullivanNumismatics , @ErrorsOnCoins
My thinking is that:
If these are the trends, modern, proof errors could have a strong future.
Zions-
I think that your 3 reasons sum it up perfectly! Proof errors are very strong right now. There was a temporary supply available recently, as noted by Jon Sullivan, but it appears to have been dispersed and prices are subsequently moving upwards again, with very strong prices realized in 2 Heritage Auctions this week!
Thanks Mike!
All those Kennedy proofs above do look striking and beautiful!
Zions- in the Heritage ANA Auction, where some prices for proof errors dipped lower, subsequently 3 Heritage Auctions in a row have shown that prices have not only rebounded, but also increased.
The proof Kennedy double struck off-center and not even a flip- over, brought $15,600.
Here is another example:
I purchased in the Heritage ANA Auction a proof Ike Dollar double struck on a clad half blank NGC PF 68!! for a ridiculously low $6300.
Basically the same coin in only NGC PR 65 a few days ago in Heritage realized 12k!!
Here is the PR 68 NGC from the Heritage ANA Auction at $6300 that I purchased:
I respectfully disagree that Proof errors are very rare, unless you wish to specify Proof errors before 1965.
The Proof errors after 1967 were deliberately manufactured in quantity.
TD
How many in number does rare mean to you?
Coins can be both rare and deliberately made. For example, the Washington Sac mules are almost certainly deliberately made but they are also almost certainly rare.
Zions- of course you are right! Over 20 Sac mules known and still worth between 100k and 200k😉
TD- no one is disputing that after 1967 there were some deliberatelly made proof errors.
The market and auctions are unquestionably proving that they are in demand based on the prices that they bring.😉
TD you stated that “ I respectfully disagree that Proof errors are very rare, unless you wish to specify Proof errors before 1965.
The Proof errors after 1967 were deliberately manufactured in quantity.”
With all due respect, that is not entirely accurate. There are many unique and rare proof errors, where even after 50 years, no more have surfaced.
Was this proof Ike Dollar in BRONZE deliberately struck? Obviously most likely.
Was it produced in quantity? Highly UNLIKELY. To date, it’s unique after 50 years.
The bronze Ike is awesome Mike! The color and deep, watery fields are amazing on it.
@CaptHenway which modern proof errors do you think are common? Outside of clashed dies, rotated dies and unstruck planchets (which all seem accidental), the ones I’ve seen all seem either unique or pretty rare to me.
Thanks Zions
It’s an amazing proof Ike Dollar in BRONZE!
What is the population of the SFAO deliberate errors as a group? I would estimate that as a group they number in the few to several hundreds. A thousand is not impossible, but probably unlikely. I do not consider them to be very rare.
That’s an interesting perspective. If everything is considered as a group then is anything rare? For example, 1894-S dimes wouldn’t be rare if Barber dimes were considered as a group.
Zions- great analogy!
Grouping together the unique proof Bronze Ike Dollar with the hundreds of combined proof errors known, and coming to the conclusion that the proof Bronze Ike Dollar isn’t unique or rare, is like saying that the 1894S Dimes are not rare since there are thousands of Barber Dimes.
There are unique and very rare U.S. proof major errors, and many that are not. The same applies to Barber Dimes. The 1894S is very rare, and thousands are not.
It’s just common sense.
I agree it’s common sense that the unique bronze Ike is rare. I can understand saying it was deliberately made, but saying it’s not rare requires too much mental gymnastics for me.
The statement that I challenged was, and I quote, “proof errors are very rare.”
If “proof errors” number in the hundreds, then “proof errors” are not very rare. You might reasonably say that “die pair x” struck on “planchet y” or “struck coin z” is very rare and be unquestionably right, but “proof errors” as the group that you cite are not, in my opinion, “very rare.”
That’s just common sense.
TD-
I know your comment was addressing Zions’ quote “proof errors are very rare”.
If the total number of proof errors over the last 50 years is in the hundreds, then obviously they are rare. Some major types of errors are unique and some might have ten known. But overall they are rare, when compared to other segments of numismatics.
I see what you’re saying but I don’t think your approach is common sense.
For example, people will generally say patterns are rare (because each type is rare), not that they are common (because there are many in aggregate). Same goes for other pieces like Lesher Dollars, Elder pieces, and others.
I think you are trying to make a point, but using an unusual way to do so.
Zions- another excellent point!
There are thousands of U.S. patterns, yet they are considered rare. There are hundreds of proof errors, and are considered rare.
I looked at the Heritage archives for proof U.S. errors from highest price to $250. Almost 300 showed up. There was such a wide variety of different types of errors and denominations. It looks the same when searching patterns- a wide variety.
It’s not logical to say that patterns are not rare since there are thousands. There are thousands but many are unique and very rare.
It’s not logical to say that proof errors are not rare since there are hundreds. There are hundreds but many are unique and rare.
Zions-
Some proof errors were most likely deliberately struck. So were some mint state error coins. Here is the famous Lincoln Cent bonded to a magnetic screw that was most likely an intentional mint error that was struck. It’s an amazing mint error!
I would not automatically assume that this screw struck into a coin is intentional. Back in the 70’s and early 80’s an ANA Summer Seminar course included a floor tour of the Denver Mint. It always began in the Superintendent’s office, and after she welcomed us one of her assistants would pass around a large display board full of wild errors. One of them was a coin (half dollar?) with a coil spring struck into it.
TD- you have an interesting point. Maybe the Lincoln Cent bonded with a magnetic screw wasn’t intentional.
When I was 17 I also did the ANA Seminar floor tour of the Denver Mint. The Superintendent used a large bonded Cent cluster as her door stopper.
At 17 years old I published my first coin catalog that included a 1900 Gold Indian Cent from the Beck Collection. Also for sale was the $20 Lib struck on a Large Cent blank. (Viewable on my website).
Even dealing with five figure mint errors in 1975 at 17 years old, I was fascinated by the Cent bonded cluster. I would estimate it was 50 to 60 coins and blows away everything that has come out since.
She allowed me to study it but kept watching me. I will never forget admiring the cluster.
Did you see the board with the errors? Basically it was a thick piece of wood or plywood roughly two feet wide and 18 inches high with various size and shape holes routed through it, with a sheet of lucite or the like riveted to the front and to the back. The edges and corners were rounded off, and the whole thing was a bit scuffy from repeated handling.
Inside the holes were wonders, including the piece with the spring struck into it.
If you look at the auction results for Heritage, you'll see the vast majority of major proof errors (such as double-strikes, off-metals, etc) have come onto the market in the later half of 2019-present. Obviously a group is being broken up and sold.
What this means in terms of rarity or values, only time and seeing what comes out in the future will tell. I think prices will be very mixed for the foreseeable future, with rarities and values going up or down on a coin by coin basis.
With proof errors as a whole, in light of the recent coins on the market, are they as rare are they were 5 years ago? No. Are they more rare than business strikes for the most part, absolutely (but not in all cases!)
TD- no I did not see the board with the errors, but it sounds really cool!
TD- on the Mint floor tour, there were error coins all over on the floor and in a small bin. It was a fascinating tour!
Very interesting. I wonder if the cent was used as a handle for the screw so a screw driver would not be needed. If so, it would be like the dime on a name that was used provide a place to hold the nail when used with the press, like the flat part of a knitting needle.
TD and Zions-
It would be fascinating if it can be determined that this was accidentally struck during the normal minting process.
Yeah, they always stressed the "NO FREE SAMPLES!" rule before we went in. Before my time there some student on a tour pocketed something and the Mint guy who was watching the group from a distance waited until everybody was gathered in one room before exiting and he walked up to the guy and said, loudly and in front of everybody: "I THINK YOU HAVE SOMETHING OF OURS!" and held out a hand. The guy handed it over and when the bus got back to Colorado SPrings the guy was ordered to leave the campus NOW!
TD- yes! I have heard some crazy stories too!