"Buy the coin, not the slab"

atom

I have walked away from many slabbed coins that in my opinion didn't meet the assigned grade, or lacked eye appeal. And when judging images from auction listings, there's really no recourse if you win a coin that doesn't meet your satisfaction. Some online shops have better pictures than others which can make a difference.
I would guess that many folks rely more on the label than the appearance of the coin itself.

How about you? Have you passed on a coin which you may not agree with its assigned grade?

thefinn

Yep. I have seen CAC approved coins that I wouldn't buy at the grade. I've never paid a premium or been asked to pay a premium for a CAC bean.

WCC

There is more to just buying a correctly graded coin with this concept. It's also paying a "meaningful" premium or multiples for a coin in a slightly higher grade, whether it is accurately graded or not.

This is a lot more applicable to common (frequently US) coins but I apply it generally. Whatever actual difference exists (which I consider limited or minimal contrary to the opinions of most US collectors) is disproportionate to the price.

cacheman

It has been many years since I have bought either a coin or medal in a slab. It just digs at me that I would relinquish what is my responsibility to someone else, then pay them on top of it.

Barberian

Sometimes CAC slaps a green bean on coins that have been dipped but are clearly undergraded. I avoid dipped coins except when cherry-picking where I figure I can make some money when it comes time to sell.

neildrobertson

The majority of the coins I collect don't have very discrete pricing levels based on individual grade points. I rarely have to consider passing on a coin because of my assessment of the grade. It often comes down to whether it's a coin I want to own at all, at any grade.

John Conduitt

If like me you collect older coins (over 100 years or more), the eye appeal of each coin can vary hugely for many reasons besides grade. Grade becomes less important until you get to hammered coins, when it's completely irrelevant (or at least I think so).

MKUltra24

I think slabbed coins help both newcomers and when there is debate.

For example if a dealer is selling a coin and says it’s AU you might disagree and think it’s XF.

But what if that coin is like $1,900 in AU but only $700 in XF?

If PCGS says it’s XF then that helps justify what the buyer believes so they don’t end up paying more than double.

asheland

@thefinn said:
Yep. I have seen CAC approved coins that I wouldn't buy at the grade. I've never paid a premium or been asked to pay a premium for a CAC bean.

I agree, but I'll pay a slight premium for a CAC if I like the coin enough...

atom

So a CAC bean means little to some of you. Which comes back to the OP. If you like a coin in a slab and have confidence in your own grading, you'll pay what you feels it's worth. With or without a label and/or CAC bean. (Which is my MO.)

I know of several dealers of ancients that won't even consider ancient coins in slabs. They'll crack them out regardless of the assigned grade. Do you think this ever happens with world coins?

WCC

@atom said:
So a CAC bean means little to some of you.

I don't buy any US coins but am confident there will never be a CAC equivalent service with the coins I predominantly buy now or did in the past. Niche segment and virtually no supply of coins available where a CAC type service could make a market. I don't want it either, as all it does is inflate the price of the coins I want to buy.

@atom said:

I know of several dealers of ancients that won't even consider ancient coins in slabs. They'll crack them out regardless of the assigned grade. Do you think this ever happens with world coins?

Yes. I've heard non-US collectors do so. A non-US based collector may buy a graded coin because it's one they like and not readily available otherwise. Buying a graded coin doesn't mean they actually like slabs. I don't expect they are doing this with a coin where the TPG label represents a meaningful proportion of the value though. They just don't buy the coin.

YQQ

It is very interesting how auctioneers and dealers alike distance themselves from responsibility when they sell a graded coin!!
This is ever so evident in Europe where graded coins are "star" priced now, but were much disliked a few years ago (our collectors want to hold the coin, not plastic

pruebas

@YQQ said:
It is very interesting how auctioneers and dealers alike distance themselves from responsibility when they sell a graded coin!!
This is ever so evident in Europe where graded coins are "star" priced now, but were much disliked a few years ago (our collectors want to hold the coin, not plastic

American auctioneers see the value of pushing the authenticity and grading risk off to a third party. Especially when they receive a discounted fee and expedited service from said third party for doing so. I can't say that I blame them. Better to pay $40 per lot regardless of value than worry about what to do with returns.

JohnnyCache

@pruebas said:

@YQQ said:
It is very interesting how auctioneers and dealers alike distance themselves from responsibility when they sell a graded coin!!
This is ever so evident in Europe where graded coins are "star" priced now, but were much disliked a few years ago (our collectors want to hold the coin, not plastic

American auctioneers see the value of pushing the authenticity and grading risk off to a third party. Especially when they receive a discounted fee and expedited service from said third party for doing so. I can't say that I blame them. Better to pay $40 per lot regardless of value than worry about what to do with returns.

The problem with the auction houses passing the buck to the TPG is that sometimes the TPG's give a pass to a coin, for whatever reason, when they really should not. Either a slightly higher grade or, worse in my opinion, a straight grade when one isn't deserved.

There is a coin coming up for auction soon that is very desirable among collectors of the type and also to those who don't typically collect these coins, a real crossover piece if you will. The coin I'm thinking of is straight graded, looks reasonable in pictures but is so heavily hairlined that I wouldn't want it in my collection. The auction house didn't say bleep about the hairlines, which again, are well beyond some light stray marks that a cataloger could consider incidental and just brush off. To me it's deceitful to the buyer. Par for course I suppose.

coinkat

The more compelling question really is not the grade as an opinion can change, but the look of the coin and its characteristics. And in this analysis, the grade becomes secondary as opposed to the opportunities/chances of finding the coin with the right look. So to answer the question, I have passed on coins not because I disagreed with the grade as much as I thought there was a better chance that I would find a better example. I rarely buy slabs but when I do the decision goes full circle back to the look of the coin and not the grade.

robp2

@atom said:

>

I know of several dealers of ancients that won't even consider ancient coins in slabs. They'll crack them out regardless of the assigned grade. **Do you think this ever happens with world coins? **

Unquestionably. I must have bought a couple hundred coins in slabs over the years. All bar half a dozen of which are no longer in them, with the remainder waiting for me to rearrange the trays in my cabinet. Quite a few it transpired were top pops, but subsequently in a couple cases I could point to coins graded one point lower which were slightly better to my mind. In the case of unique or only available examples you are buying the coin irrespective of TPG opinions, as the whole question of numbers becomes fairly meaningless if you collect the series.

Apart from the perennial question of under or over-grading, you also have the issue of correct attribution, where I guess world coins are less reliably attributed. At that point the slab can be as useful as a chocolate teapot. On one occasion the identity was wrong, leaving a total pop of 1 where the believed two known are in the BM and Bank of England collections, and me with a so far unique coin, not identified as such. The number on the label and the description were both irrelevant as I bought the coin for what it was - as you always should.

atom

@robp2 said:

@atom said:

>

I know of several dealers of ancients that won't even consider ancient coins in slabs. They'll crack them out regardless of the assigned grade. **Do you think this ever happens with world coins? **

Unquestionably. I must have bought a couple hundred coins in slabs over the years. All bar half a dozen of which are no longer in them, with the remainder waiting for me to rearrange the trays in my cabinet. Quite a few it transpired were top pops, but subsequently in a couple cases I could point to coins graded one point lower which were slightly better to my mind. In the case of unique or only available examples you are buying the coin irrespective of TPG opinions, as the whole question of numbers becomes fairly meaningless if you collect the series.

Apart from the perennial question of under or over-grading, you also have the issue of correct attribution, where I guess world coins are less reliably attributed. At that point the slab can be as useful as a chocolate teapot. On one occasion the identity was wrong, leaving a total pop of 1 where the believed two known are in the BM and Bank of England collections, and me with a so far unique coin, not identified as such. The number on the label and the description were both irrelevant as I bought the coin for what it was - as you always should.

For sure. I also have been lucky to find mislabeled coins because the graders(?) weren't familiar with foreign language lettering. Actually surprises me that these errors happen. I've had to return slabs for 'mechanical errors' and still own some with grossly misidentified coins. I guess that's what keeps the hobby going.

atom

@coinkat said:
The more compelling question really is not the grade as an opinion can change, but the look of the coin and its characteristics. And in this analysis, the grade becomes secondary as opposed to the opportunities/chances of finding the coin with the right look. So to answer the question, I have passed on coins not because I disagreed with the grade as much as I thought there was a better chance that I would find a better example. I rarely buy slabs but when I do the decision goes full circle back to the look of the coin and not the grade.

And when you acquire a coin, do you then submit it for grading? or keep it raw?

atom

@pruebas said:

@YQQ said:
It is very interesting how auctioneers and dealers alike distance themselves from responsibility when they sell a graded coin!!
This is ever so evident in Europe where graded coins are "star" priced now, but were much disliked a few years ago (our collectors want to hold the coin, not plastic

American auctioneers see the value of pushing the authenticity and grading risk off to a third party. Especially when they receive a discounted fee and expedited service from said third party for doing so. I can't say that I blame them. Better to pay $40 per lot regardless of value than worry about what to do with returns.

Besides a discounted fee, do you think they are more lenient in grading when they're submitted from the auction house?

atom

@YQQ said:
It is very interesting how auctioneers and dealers alike distance themselves from responsibility when they sell a graded coin!!
This is ever so evident in Europe where graded coins are "star" priced now, but were much disliked a few years ago (our collectors want to hold the coin, not plastic

I agree, especially with ancient grading in slabs.

atom

@asheland said:

@thefinn said:
Yep. I have seen CAC approved coins that I wouldn't buy at the grade. I've never paid a premium or been asked to pay a premium for a CAC bean.

I agree, but I'll pay a slight premium for a CAC if I like the coin enough...

Basically you're saying you'll pay a premium for a nicer coin, regardless of the bean?

atom

@MKUltra24 said:
I think slabbed coins help both newcomers and when there is debate.

For example if a dealer is selling a coin and says it’s AU you might disagree and think it’s XF.

But what if that coin is like $1,900 in AU but only $700 in XF?

If PCGS says it’s XF then that helps justify what the buyer believes so they don’t end up paying more than double.

Yes it is helpful for newcomers. Seems to me that many of us long time collectors have developed our own instinct about the coin's value based of the condition and its eye appeal, so the grade on the slab is mute.

atom

@JohnConduitt said:
If like me you collect older coins (over 100 years or more), the eye appeal of each coin can vary hugely for many reasons besides grade. Grade becomes less important until you get to hammered coins, when it's completely irrelevant (or at least I think so).

Spot on.

atom

@neildrobertson said:
The majority of the coins I collect don't have very discrete pricing levels based on individual grade points. I rarely have to consider passing on a coin because of my assessment of the grade. It often comes down to whether it's a coin I want to own at all, at any grade.

agree - as @JohnConduitt says too

atom

@Barberian said:
Sometimes CAC slaps a green bean on coins that have been dipped but are clearly undergraded. I avoid dipped coins except when cherry-picking where I figure I can make some money when it comes time to sell.

Dipping coins remains an enigma to me. Dealers are quick to dip a coin before submitting if they are confident it'll make it more aesthetically appealing.

atom

@cacheman said:
It has been many years since I have bought either a coin or medal in a slab. It just digs at me that I would relinquish what is my responsibility to someone else, then pay them on top of it.

I can't help but notice dealer's offerings are becoming more slabby. I also don't like it, but it's now a fact that has evolved over the past 3 decades.

cacheman

@atom said:

@cacheman said:
It has been many years since I have bought either a coin or medal in a slab. It just digs at me that I would relinquish what is my responsibility to someone else, then pay them on top of it.

I can't help but notice dealer's offerings are becoming more slabby. I also don't like it, but it's now a fact that has evolved over the past 3 decades.

Not in Europe where 98% of my collecting occurs...but then again, I rarely delve into coins with the exception of German patterns.

WCC

@atom said:
For sure. I also have been lucky to find mislabeled coins because the graders(?) weren't familiar with foreign language lettering. Actually surprises me that these errors happen. I've had to return slabs for 'mechanical errors' and still own some with grossly misidentified coins. I guess that's what keeps the hobby going.

It's what keeps these businesses in business. It doesn't have much of anything to do with the hobby.

pruebas

@atom said:

@pruebas said:

@YQQ said:
It is very interesting how auctioneers and dealers alike distance themselves from responsibility when they sell a graded coin!!
This is ever so evident in Europe where graded coins are "star" priced now, but were much disliked a few years ago (our collectors want to hold the coin, not plastic

American auctioneers see the value of pushing the authenticity and grading risk off to a third party. Especially when they receive a discounted fee and expedited service from said third party for doing so. I can't say that I blame them. Better to pay $40 per lot regardless of value than worry about what to do with returns.

Besides a discounted fee, do you think they are more lenient in grading when they're submitted from the auction house?

I have no idea. But I do notice that it's easier for dealers and auction houses to get enigmatic issues into a slab. They seem to give more credence to them over collectors.

coinkat

@atom

I submit those raw coins when it makes sense. You are welcome to look at my registry sets or prior posts in which I have shared submission results... most have the PCGS images and they do pretty good job in making coin photography look easier than it is.

atom

@coinkat said:
@atom

I submit those raw coins when it makes sense. You are welcome to look at my registry sets or prior posts in which I have shared submission results... most have the PCGS images and they do pretty good job in making coin photography look easier than it is.

Trueview images are superb. I would say the images account for the overwhelming reason I prefer submitting to PCGS.
How do I find your registry sets?

coinkat

My current favorites are Great Britain Crown type set- look under TCC and my second favorite is Mexico peso 1918-45-look under TCC.

neildrobertson

I will say that I have bought the trueview a few times this year on internet auctions. I bought a few coins based on their true views this year and then found out that they weren't better than my current example once I received it at home and was able to do an in-hand comparison. I guess you could call it an occupational hazard of someone that bids online, but it comes at a real, albeit modest, cost.

burfle23

Just purchased a slabbed GB shilling authenticated and graded AU-55; one could argue an MS grade but can't argue the authenticity- it is another counterfeit in a genuine holder...

jackpine20

More times than not scratches in the plastic prevent the sharp focus of the coin. What is the point of owning a coin, if I can't clearly see it? So, I get it re-holdered (or crossed over). I love a fresh holder! I have found the fastest way to sell a nice coin on eBay is to start with a "Premium Quality example in a fresh PCGS holder without scratches or even so much as a fingerprint." I have used similar verbiage and found a buyer within hours, multiple times. I hold every rare coin by the edges, whether slabbed or raw. Scratches suck, wherever you find 'em.

jackpine20

Provided I loved the coin, I would pay a sharp premium for an older PCGS holder ... as long as the holder was clean, without distracting scratches.

desslok

I've seen many world coins misattributed in holders of both major grading services. Israel 25 Mils coin of 1949 has two different die varieties named "open link" and "closed link", which are not difficult to tell apart if you have a reference. A certain design element at the top of the obverse is either open or closed. However, with both PCGS and NGC, it's a crap shoot - I've seen many labels that indicate the opposite attribution from what the coin really is.

This makes some collectors here distrust the grading services entirely. The think to themselves, "if they can't get an obvious detail correct, then why should we treat their other opinions as gospel?"

FrankH

If for no other reason, entombing a coin at least pins it to an era.
Can't speak for Europe but an inherited collection of raw coins is an invitation to not only disaster, but also ease of cataloguing.

Sure, HOLDING a coin is neat. And fine for minimally valued coins.

Slab it and keep it.