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Tony Oliva belongs in the Hall of Fame before he passes!
82FootballWaxMemorys
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Classy act with truly great stats for his era when few hit over .250 (hmm seems familiar). His family and him deserves to see him go in the hall before he passes.
Hoping others here do agree!
Unless otherwise specified my posts represent only my opinion, not fact.
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Not a Twins fan either, but it wouldn't bother me one bit if he were elected.
Of course you'll get the wasn't good enough, wasn't dominant, wasn't the best in his position/ERA/Team arguments. He is a career .300 hitter, which is no easy task. ROY, 8X AS, gold glover. I will always remember 2 cards in particular, his 65 Topps and his 76 Topps. The former is one of the better trophy cards and his first solo card. The latter was not even a great image, in fact a pretty bad one actually, but as a kid, I loved it probably because I learned about his career and liked him. It would also be his last appearance on a Topps card before he retired.
I would say he was pretty dominant for eight years from 1964-71.
Two second place finishes in the MVP. All-Star and also top 20 MVP eight straight years. Not too many could say that. Not Killebrew or Yastrzemski.
During those eight seasons he won 3 batting titles and was second once and third three times. Led the league in hits 5 times
Not just a singles hitter either with 7 seasons in the top 10 in SLG, led in doubles 4 times.
Top 5 in Total Bases 5 times.
A serious injury in 1971 when he was having his best year practically ended his career, he was never the same after that.
In his his last five years, he had eight knee operations. He could still hit, but he couldn't run.
Marvelous player.
Hey mrmopar and JoeBanzai...
Awesome job on the stats report!
I just don't see it. Too many players too much better not (yet) enshrined. Are we seriously calling a player "dominant" because he had back to back 19th place MVP finishes?
Other than his .304 lifetime average (I'll concede it is rather strange for an otherwise eligible (10+ years) candidate to not be in the HOF with a >.300 average, you know the traditional benchmark of batting excellence?) nothing else on his lifetime stats line (always should be the first and most important criteria by far when determining HOF worthiness, agreed?) really is anything special.
Dimes: 54S, 53P, 50P, 49S, 45D+S, 44S, 43D, 41S, 40D+S, 39D+S, 38D+S, 37D+S, 36S, 35D+S, all 16-34's
Quarters: 52S, 47S, 46S, 40S, 39S, 38S, 37D+S, 36D+S, 35D, 34D, 32D+S
74 Topps: 37,38,46,47,48,138,151,193,210,214,223,241,256,264,268,277,289,316,435,552,570,577,592,602,610,654,655
1997 Finest silver: 115, 135, 139, 145, 310
1995 Ultra Gold Medallion Sets: Golden Prospects, HR Kings, On-Base Leaders, Power Plus, RBI Kings, Rising Stars
Sounds a lot like what happened to Bo Jackson after he f-ed up his knee/hip...he could still hit (mostly) but he didn't have his flashy trademark speed.
Don Mattingly was a big time work/practice-olic until his bad back flared up in 1990...so because he had to drastically cut back on it, his power hitting was never the same though his fielding was still Gold Glove worthy and his season batting averages improved over time. I think he more than anyone is a perfect example of someone who came literally one season short of the HOF.
Dimes: 54S, 53P, 50P, 49S, 45D+S, 44S, 43D, 41S, 40D+S, 39D+S, 38D+S, 37D+S, 36S, 35D+S, all 16-34's
Quarters: 52S, 47S, 46S, 40S, 39S, 38S, 37D+S, 36D+S, 35D, 34D, 32D+S
74 Topps: 37,38,46,47,48,138,151,193,210,214,223,241,256,264,268,277,289,316,435,552,570,577,592,602,610,654,655
1997 Finest silver: 115, 135, 139, 145, 310
1995 Ultra Gold Medallion Sets: Golden Prospects, HR Kings, On-Base Leaders, Power Plus, RBI Kings, Rising Stars
dp
Dimes: 54S, 53P, 50P, 49S, 45D+S, 44S, 43D, 41S, 40D+S, 39D+S, 38D+S, 37D+S, 36S, 35D+S, all 16-34's
Quarters: 52S, 47S, 46S, 40S, 39S, 38S, 37D+S, 36D+S, 35D, 34D, 32D+S
74 Topps: 37,38,46,47,48,138,151,193,210,214,223,241,256,264,268,277,289,316,435,552,570,577,592,602,610,654,655
1997 Finest silver: 115, 135, 139, 145, 310
1995 Ultra Gold Medallion Sets: Golden Prospects, HR Kings, On-Base Leaders, Power Plus, RBI Kings, Rising Stars
No problem with Oliva in the HOF- well deserved
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Oliva was a HOF-level talent, but with only 8 HOF-level seasons before he got injured there's just not enough there. I always liked him, and for that reason it won't distress me if he does get in, but objectively his career was just too short.
YES, that's exactly what I meant!!!!!!
Excellent job at twisting my words!
I'll come back with; That makes him better than Harmon or Carl because they couldn't even do that. Furthermore, Tony should have been in the top 10 both of those years!
You certainly can look at things any way you want to, and you have a fair point. I watched his career and he was the best "pure" hitter of his era and he had great (averaging .500+ SLG in the 8 years) power too. Injuries obviously curtailed his ability. It doesn't seem right to me to let guys that weren't as good, but stayed healthy in the HOF. Tony did play long enough and certainly well enough to qualify.
Pretty concise statement of why he's not in.
I would much rather see Oliva in than a guy like Baines, and a few others who were very good but not great, but managed to play for a very long period.
Dick Allen is in the same boat, but he put up even better numbers. The difference to me was Dick could have continued to play if he so desired, the last few years he was quite controversial retiring once and actually quitting on his final team in the middle of the year.
It makes at least as much sense to put guys like these in above "ham-and-eggers" who played 20+ years with 8-10 of those years sub par.
Sounds good to me.
Olivia was definitely a HOF-type player. Unfortunately, he only played 11 MLB seasons which limits his HOF chances and left him as a borderline guy. My top 10 not in the Hall of Fame are as follows.
The vote is Dec 5. Let's see if those ghouls continue to leave poor Mr Oliva twisting in the wind until he dies. Must be a nice job they have leisurely meeting every 8-10 years.
At least multiple DUI felony offender LaRussa won't be one of them. Otherwise he'll push more into the Hall to which he seemingly owes money like Baines
Unless otherwise specified my posts represent only my opinion, not fact.
This I agree with.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
Keith Hernandez is more deserving than most on this list.
r
My top 10 not in the Hall of Fame are as follows.
Steve Garvey also
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
Oliva had two big disadvantages. The first was that he played in Minnesota, not New York or LA. That immediately cut his chance of being in the HOF. Do you think Pee Wee Reese would be in the HOF if he had played in Minnesota? No way!
The second disadvantage was that he played at the same time as Carew and Killebrew. Hard to get recognition when you have those two guys on your team!
There is an article on espn.com that says the omission of Minnie Minoso is egregious. I don’t think that’s the adjective I’d use.
Oliva had strong offensive numbers during an era heavily dominated by pitching. He batted .304 with 220 home runs, 947 RBI, 870 runs, 1,917 hits, 329 doubles, 48 triples, 448 bases on balls and 86 stolen bases in 1,676 games played. In 13 postseason games, he batted .314 with 3 home runs and 5 RBI.[2] He was selected to the All-Star team his first eight seasons, surpassing Joe DiMaggio's previous record of six selections. In addition, he was a powerful-armed Gold Glove outfielder who led AL right fielders in putouts 6 times, double plays 3 times, and assists twice.
In 1981, Lawrence Ritter and Donald Honig included him in their book The 100 Greatest Baseball Players of All Time. They explained what they called "the Smoky Joe Wood Syndrome", in which a player of truly exceptional talent but whose career was curtailed by injury, in spite of not having had career statistics that would quantitatively rank him with the all-time greats, should still be included on their list of the 100 greatest players.
Actually, I definitely missed Garvey on that. He should definitely be in the hall of fame without question. His accolades a clear as day.
.294 career batting average
273 home runs
1308 runs batted in
2599 career hits
these stats alone qualify him but what really shows he should be in the hall of fame is the following.
From 1974-80 he was considered one of the elite top 5 MLB players and one of the few faces of the game. He and Reggie Jackson were probably the most recognizable players in the league during this period and played for the most iconic teams of the period. He had 5 top 6 MVP finished and won the award in 1974. During this period he had 5 200+ hit seasons.
He played in 10 all-star games and won 4 golden glove awards.
He played in 5 world series and won a ring in 1981. Additionally, he hit .338 lifetime in the playoffs with 11 home runs in 222 career at-bats. He was clutch when it counted.
He should be up there with Dave Parker on the list.
I'll give you Whitaker, though am not upset that he's out. Minos and Allen wouldn't be terrible choices, but the rest of these guys would be. Travis and Kaat are the only ones on this list less deserving than Garvey.
Yeah, Cecil Travis is sort of a head-scratcher, and I think it's at least a little unfair to Kaat to group the two. Travis was a good enough player but so was Rico Petrocelli, and I don't see any obvious reason to say Travis was better. It's true that he might have lost some great seasons to WWII, but nobody is in the HOF for what they might have done. If there's a pre-war player who deserves induction I think it's Sherry Magee.
I think Petrocelli was actually significantly better and would compare Travis to Eddie Joost who was an almost exact contemporary. I'd be tempted to go with Bill Dahlen over Magee, but I think/hope the point is academic.
Tony-O's two disadvantages were his knees.
I saw all three of these guys play and Oliva was arguably the best of them all. Nearly as good a hitter as Killebrew, he was a better fielder and runner.
Carew was not much more than a singles hitter, who seemed to get about half of his hits on bunts and "flares" into left field. His best years were not as good as Oliva's. He just had several above average years to add to the mix.
Oliva crushed the ball to every corner of the ballpark, unfortunately he really only was able to do it for 8 years, but what a tremendous 8 years it was!
I'm a huge Twins fan & while I would like to see Oliva in the HOF, I think it's a stretch.
He did lead the Twins to the pennant in 1965 & a strong argument is he deserved the MVP over his teammate, Zolio Versailles. He also led division-winning clubs in 1969 and 1970, with 1967 being a near miss due to a surge by the Red Sox in the last week of the season.
He and Dick Allen were short by just ONE vote sometime over the last decade.
Rod Carew is on the Senior Voting Committee so he's guaranteed that one vote and I would be hard-pressed that Carew isn't doing everything in his power behind the scenes to push him over the edge this time.
We shall see...
I just bought an upgrade to my 1965 Topps cards online, in anticipation of him getting in and his cards spiking.
Erik
I have no desire to badmouth Tony Oliva; he was a great player and I was always a fan. But, come on, he was nowhere near as good a hitter as Killebrew, and his running and fielding were both in the "meh" category and do not make up much ground, if any, on Killer.
As hitters, he and Carew were pretty close, but Carew's best years were better - in the case of 1977 MUCH better - than any season Oliva ever had. And Carew's running and fielding create a pretty large gap between him and Oliva.
Not being as good as Killebrew and Carew describes most everyone who ever played, so it's a pretty mild insult to say that Oliva was also not as good as those two. He wasn't.
Killebrew was a dominant power hitter, however Olivia was also a dominant hitter in terms of hits and average. Based on the numbers he was much more difficult to strike out.
Killebrews lifetime WAR is an impressive 60.4 in 22 years played, Oliva's was 43.0 in 15. Both had exactly 4 seasons their WAR was in the top 10. Their avg WAR per season was very close.
As for Carew very few were able to put up the Average totals he did. He had a run from 1969-1983 in terms of Batting Avg that is among the greatest ever recorded. His WAR was 81.2 over 19 years. Carew had 8 seasons in which is WAR was in the top 10. He did not hit for power but dominated with the stick otherwise.
Olivia numbers are better than many in the Hall. Must be nice to be Harold Baines and be rewarded for a long career in which most seasons were lackluster and the good ones were only a bit above average. In 22 seasons he only managed a 38.7 WAR. Baines was a compiler deluxe, far more so than Yaz. At least Yaz a few seasons of dominance, something Baines never did.
Olivia is not a upper echelon HOF'er but in terms of Veterans or Golden Era election IMHO he more than qualifies.
Unless otherwise specified my posts represent only my opinion, not fact.
Cecil Travis is heads and tales better than Joost or Petrocelli in my opinion. It's not even close.
Joost was a career .239 hitter who had just 1339 hits in 17 years.
Petrocelli was a career .252 hitter with 1352 hits in 13 years
Cecil Travis had 1370 hits by age 27 with a career batting average of .327. In his final season before going to war he hit .359 (second to Ted Williams who hit .406) 218 hits 39 doubles 19 triples and 101 runs batted in. That is an outstanding season. He was easily on pace for the hall of fame before shipping out to WW2 where he won a bronze star and nearly had his foot amputated during the battle of the bulge. Physically, he was a shadow of himself when he came back to baseball 4 years later. No doubt in my mind he should be in the hall of fame given how good he was before his career was cut short due to wartime service.
Buckner should be in before Oliva
Kiss me twice.....let's party.
Tough for me to even consider Buckner when Al Oliver, Fred McGriff, Vada Pinson, Dave Parker and Minnie Minoso have not even made it.
.
Your argument is that "higher batting average" is identically the same thing as "better than". If that is the argument that you meant to make, then I'll just shake my head and walk away. But if you meant to make a better argument, you should do so.
I know they're just words, but these words were physically painful to read.
I'll let your list stand, but I will note that 1,000 names, at least, could be added to it. For reasons unknown to me, Buckner was allowed to play a very long career despite not being particularly good at any meaningful aspect of the game. If Buckner had been just a little bit better, he would have been average.
Not looking for a fight or a sarcastic response, but that seems a little unfair to a guy who batted almost 290 for his career.
Agreed. Al Oliver and Vada Pinson seem to be overlooked even when making a list of players that should be in the HOF. They both had 2,700+ hits and 200+ HRs. I also can't believe McGriff is not in. He was just 10 hits shy of 2,500 and just 7 HRs shy of 500.
buying O-Pee-Chee (OPC) baseball
Buckner did have the astounding ability to have 200 hits in a season, but not hit .300.
Since when are 2700 hits or 200 HR determiners for HoF status? 69 players have 2700 hits including Omar Vizquel, Baines, and Buckner. 357 have 200 home runs including Josh Hamilton and Pete Incaviglia. Pinson was very good, but not close enough, IMO. Oliver was not even close.
He made it!
Six baseball legends were elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame Class of 2022 as part of the institution's Era Committees election cycle in results announced Sunday night on MLB Network. Bud Fowler and Buck O'Neil were elected from the Early Baseball Era Committee ballot of 10 candidates, while Gil Hodges, Jim Kaat, Minnie Miñoso and Tony Oliva were elected from the 10 Golden Days Era Committee candidates
Gil Hodges should have been inducted at least 20 years ago. It's about time.
The problem is that you're looking at batting average, and only batting average, and that stat isn't terribly important.
Over the course of his career Buckner had an OBP of .321 and a SLG of .408, playing almost entirely in hitter's parks. League averages for OBP and SLG over the course of Buckner's career were .333 and .395. Despite his relatively high batting average, Buckner was actually getting on base at a below average rate, and his slugging average was only slightly above average. So he was an average hitter. But, he was also a first baseman, and a bad one, so his fielding value was well below average. All in all, Buckner was a slightly below average baseball player. I'll give him some brownie points for being able to remain average for a long time, but he gets no HOF points for that. Buckner gets no HOF points for anything. I get razzed for hyping certain players more than they deserve, so I'll stress that none of the following players are close to HOF-level, but I would seriously induct Gene Tenace, Ron Fairly, and Milt Pappas before I would induct Bill Buckner.
Minoso - about damn time
Oliva - won't lose any sleep over it
Kaat - won't lose any sleep over it
Hodges - joins Rice and Baines at the WTF? table in the basement.
I think Hodges ends up effectively getting in for being a very good player, a great manager and leader, and a remarkable human being.
And I maintain that, in my opinion, it was unfair. Either way who really cares anyway? RIP Bill Buckner.
I had long thought that Gil Hodges deserved entry into the Hall and am so happy he was elected today!
How many first basemen -- or players at other positions for that matter -- accomplished anything equivalent to the following by the end of Gil Hodges' playing era? ...
All-time career right-handed home run hitter in the the N.L. and second in the major leagues to Jimmie Foxx (both eventually surpassed by Willie Mays)
All-time career Grand Slam hitter in the N.L. (until surpassed by Hank Aaron)
100 or more RBI seven consecutive years
30 or more HR 6 times, 5 consecutively
3 Gold Gloves (the first 3 awarded; they only started giving them in 1957, toward the latter part of his career)
7 World Series appearances
8 All-Star Game selections as N.L. first baseman
2nd most HR and RBI of any player in the major leagues during the 1950s (Duke Snider was first in both categories)
While his total career stats may not measure up to some other HOF entrants, Hodges was unquestionably a dominating first baseman in his era -- both offensively and defensively -- and one of the best in baseball history. Of the 21 players with at least 300 home runs at the time of his retirement in 1963, he was the last one elected to the HOF.
For a cherry on top of the sundae, he won a World Series as a manager of the Mets in 1969. Sadly, he died two and a half years later in April 1972 at the young age of 47.
Hodges lost two seasons to military service with the U.S. Marines in World War II; he was awarded a Bronze Star for heroism under fire for action in southeast Asia.
It might be 30 or 40 years overdue, but Gil Hodges is finally getting the credit he deserves.
**Congrats to Tony! **So glad for him and his family. Minoso was long overdue. Kaat was always right on the edge but his numbers exceed many who are already in so congrats to him. Hodges IMHO belongs far more than Baines!
Unless otherwise specified my posts represent only my opinion, not fact.
Pinson and Minoso yes, and Minoso is now in. The rest at this juncture I do not believe are eligible for Golden Days Era committee thus kind of apples to oranges.
Unless otherwise specified my posts represent only my opinion, not fact.
Had he played anywhere but for the Dodgers in Ebbetts Field, he would have none of these things, which is what makes the comparison to Jim Rice so apt. Had he played for the Browns/Orioles I think there's a pretty fair chance you would never have heard of him. Gil Hodges was a good player; Bob Watson was a good player. The only real difference between them was the stadiums they played in.
Hodges doesn't have drastic home/road splits. Ebbets favored LH hitters a littler more than RH....so he gets penalized a little unfairly in the stadium adjustments.
Hodges had 321 Run Expectancy in the 24 base/out state.
Watson had 318.....so that isn't a far off comparison.
Rice had 277.
Hodges missed two years due to WWII. We don't know what he would have done in those age 20 and 21 seasons, but he would have been playing baseball and either getting better faster or contributing at the MLB level. One can say it cost him another season in 1946 at the MLB level too. Then he only played 28 games in 1947. That is a lot of playing time he missed.
He did earn a bronze star in WWII...so I guess in lieu of becoming a better baseball player or adding stats to his resume, that can go under his "character" criteria and give him a welcome nod to the HOF.
Considering all of that he has a better case than Watson and Rice.
Kaat's entry might open the door for Tommy John who had a nearly identical career to Kaat.
Others like Luis Tiant, Jerry Koosman, Mickey Lolich, and Vida Blue become a bit more intriguing options as the HoF becomes less picky about win/loss percentage.
Both Oliva and Carew had about the same number of years with OPS of .850 or higher. Oliva did it by hitting the ball hard.
Carew had 2 seasons where he slugged over .490 while Oliva did it 6 times.
Carew's 1977 was very good. but Oliva had more total bases in 1964. Better hitter, Tony.
Anyone watching these two guys would take Oliva in a heatbeat. Bunts and "gorks" are boring, balls scalded into every corner of the park is not!
Carew's longevity is the only thing that made him better in ANY way. Rod was a heluva bunter though! One of the best ever.
Oliva scored more than 95 runs in a season 5 times, Carew 3, and that's a category Carew should have done better in.
Oliva was quite simply a FAR superior hitter than Carew, he just got hurt and couldn't do it after the age of 32 when his knee was shot. Carew had 5 extra very good years after the age of 32, although his SLG in most of those years was about ,400. Oliva did that on one leg.
Aren't you the guy who says just looking at batting average isn't enough?
P.S, Congratulations Tony-O!