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Coin with provenance from big name auction house sold 40 years ago deemed not genuine!

One of the TPG rejects a coin sold at major auction 40 years ago as 'not genuine'. What recourse is there?
Would a different TPG think otherwise, and worth submitting?
What would you do??

Comments

  • neildrobertsonneildrobertson Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Is the coin in question actually genuine? That's the most important thing here. If you can prove it to anyone, you might be able to prove it to a TPG. Major auction houses are not flawless, however.

    IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
    "Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me

  • atomatom Posts: 430 ✭✭✭✭

    I’m unable to “prove” it’s genuine; I see no indicators that may lead one to think it isn’t.

  • pruebaspruebas Posts: 4,301 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It would depend on many factors.

    Were you the original buyer?
    Is the auction house still in business?
    Do you have the auction "tag" for the lot?
    And do you want the coin anyway, regardless if the TPG cannot/will not authenticate it?
    (I suspect that the TPG does not want to take the risk of authentication if they aren't 100% sure.)

    If you think it's genuine, and you can get other specialists to agree, maybe they can supply written opinions stating that for the TPG.

  • atomatom Posts: 430 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2, 2021 8:25AM

    @pruebas said:
    It would depend on many factors.

    Were you the original buyer?
    Is the auction house still in business?
    Do you have the auction "tag" for the lot?
    And do you want the coin anyway, regardless if the TPG cannot/will not authenticate it?
    (I suspect that the TPG does not want to take the risk of authentication if they aren't 100% sure.)

    If you think it's genuine, and you can get other specialists to agree, maybe they can supply written opinions stating that for the TPG.

    Yes, I bought it from Bowers & Ruddy Galleries auction of a prominent collection and have the auction tag.
    The coin's authenticity has never been in doubt for me, and I have seen other examples over the years.
    I guess a getting a look by a current specialist would be the best idea. Thanks
    Am still mystified if it passed B&R at the time.

  • pruebaspruebas Posts: 4,301 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Forgot to mention there are several TPGs. Perhaps try another?

  • atomatom Posts: 430 ✭✭✭✭

    Of course I entertained that idea. Imagine what I'll think if another grades it as authentic...

  • pruebaspruebas Posts: 4,301 ✭✭✭✭✭

    FWIW, in 2000, I bought a (low 4-figure) coin from a big Spanish auction house with many years experience that was provenanced to a big name collector in Latin America. Turns out, the description was all wrong and the item was two electrotype shells carefully attached and probably lead-filled. I didn't realize this until I got a bit more advanced, and neither did any of the experienced numismatists whose hands the coin passed through.

    So, just saying that sometimes the auction houses just want to get things sold, even if they know better (or perhaps don't). Nowadays with a slab almost mandatory in the US, this kind of thing is harder to do.

  • atomatom Posts: 430 ✭✭✭✭

    Honestly, I can live with human fallibility. I would like to become smarter when a TPG decides not to grade a coin should they have any reason to question it. But let's not forget it has already been handled by other professionals. So give me some details on WHY there is any question today. I have participated in ANA's presentations teaching about signs of non-genuine coins. So give me some information I can work with as opposed to taking someone else's (perhaps less experienced than myself) opinion.

  • atomatom Posts: 430 ✭✭✭✭

    @pruebas said:
    FWIW, in 2000, I bought a (low 4-figure) coin from a big Spanish auction house with many years experience that was provenanced to a big name collector in Latin America. Turns out, the description was all wrong and the item was two electrotype shells carefully attached and probably lead-filled. I didn't realize this until I got a bit more advanced, and neither did any of the experienced numismatists whose hands the coin passed through.

    So, just saying that sometimes the auction houses just want to get things sold, even if they know better (or perhaps don't). Nowadays with a slab almost mandatory in the US, this kind of thing is harder to do.

    I would think that it would be tricky to get the lead filled electrotype halves to weigh the same as ordinarily found, therefore catalogued. Not to mention the edge seam or some type of smoothing to cover it up.

  • pruebaspruebas Posts: 4,301 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @atom said:
    Honestly, I can live with human fallibility. I would like to become smarter when a TPG decides not to grade a coin should they have any reason to question it. But let's not forget it has already been handled by other professionals. So give me some details on WHY there is any question today. I have participated in ANA's presentations teaching about signs of non-genuine coins. So give me some information I can work with as opposed to taking someone else's (perhaps less experienced than myself) opinion.

    Did they actually call it fake, or just "authenticity unverifiable"?

    Sometimes a TPG will just be cautious and risk-averse. If I am sure it's genuine, sometimes it's best to wait 5-10 years for employee turnover at the TPG and try again! :'( I think a call to the TPG might produce a reason why it was body bagged.

  • atomatom Posts: 430 ✭✭✭✭

    "Not Genuine"
    I called asking for more information.
    The reply I got was even less comforting. The grader stated I should look up the characteristics of fake coins on the internet.

  • pruebaspruebas Posts: 4,301 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @atom said:
    "Not Genuine"
    I called asking for more information.
    The reply I got was even less comforting. The grader stated I should look up the characteristics of fake coins on the internet.

    That's pretty definitive.

    Check with a few specialists in that area and see what they think.

    Or maybe try posting it here???

  • ajaanajaan Posts: 17,070 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I once had a Turkish gold coin. One leading TPG said it was fake, another said it was genuine.


    DPOTD-3
    'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'

    CU #3245 B.N.A. #428


    Don
  • pruebaspruebas Posts: 4,301 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @atom said:

    @pruebas said:
    FWIW, in 2000, I bought a (low 4-figure) coin from a big Spanish auction house with many years experience that was provenanced to a big name collector in Latin America. Turns out, the description was all wrong and the item was two electrotype shells carefully attached and probably lead-filled. I didn't realize this until I got a bit more advanced, and neither did any of the experienced numismatists whose hands the coin passed through.

    So, just saying that sometimes the auction houses just want to get things sold, even if they know better (or perhaps don't). Nowadays with a slab almost mandatory in the US, this kind of thing is harder to do.

    I would think that it would be tricky to get the lead filled electrotype halves to weigh the same as ordinarily found, therefore catalogued. Not to mention the edge seam or some type of smoothing to cover it up.

    The coin in question was (supposedly) a trial strike in copper of a gold coin. So it would not be expected to have a proper weight and edge. The attachment of the shells was expertly done. I know museums did this kind of thing in the "old days". Not sure for what purpose.

    Interestingly, I know of 3 examples of this particular "coin". One was bought by a well-known, highly-respected specialist dealer in a public auction, so I felt more comfortable about the piece.

    My next step will be to do a specific gravity to try to see what the composition is.

  • atomatom Posts: 430 ✭✭✭✭

    @ajaan said:
    I once had a Turkish gold coin. One leading TPG said it was fake, another said it was genuine.

    And what level of confidence does that give you with TPGs in general or Auction houses for that matter?

    Was it simply "said" or submitted? If the latter, does the genuine certification make the other TPG unreliable in your mind?

  • pruebaspruebas Posts: 4,301 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @atom said:

    @ajaan said:
    I once had a Turkish gold coin. One leading TPG said it was fake, another said it was genuine.

    And what level of confidence does that give you with TPGs in general or Auction houses for that matter?

    Was it simply "said" or submitted? If the latter, does the genuine certification make the other TPG unreliable in your mind?

    One time at Long Beach, David Hall told me directly that US Coin graders are perfectly capable of authenticating/grading world coins. I still disagree with that assessment. Even world coin graders can't properly authenticate/grade every country/epoch.

  • atomatom Posts: 430 ✭✭✭✭

    @pruebas said:

    @atom said:

    @ajaan said:
    I once had a Turkish gold coin. One leading TPG said it was fake, another said it was genuine.

    And what level of confidence does that give you with TPGs in general or Auction houses for that matter?

    Was it simply "said" or submitted? If the latter, does the genuine certification make the other TPG unreliable in your mind?

    One time at Long Beach, David Hall told me directly that US Coin graders are perfectly capable of authenticating/grading world coins. I still disagree with that assessment. Even world coin graders can't properly authenticate/grade every country/epoch.

    I absolutely agree with you. And in @ajaan's case, Turkish gold is notoriously deceptive. There are many counterfeits, and genuine coins may exhibit signs that US coin graders would be fast to dismiss as real.

  • amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    As they say, this thread is useless without pics!

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,898 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A friend of mine had a collection of odd and curious money that he had put together over a long period of years. A few years back he sent a large portion of the collection to a major auction house for inclusion in one of their Hong Kong based auctions. The auction house evaluated the items, all of which the consignor considered to be genuine, and declared several to be "questionable". My friend wasn't happy with the descriptions but let the auction go ahead. The items described as genuine did very, very well in the auction. The items described as "questionable" did poorly. My friend, who is a lawyer, just took it all in stride. Too much effort and expense would have been required to possibly achieve any other result.

    In your case too much time has passed. Just move on.

    All glory is fleeting.
  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,719 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Is the auction catalog available and can the coin be linked to the auction through auction pictures? While tags are nice and can establish that you won the lot, it still is incumbent upon you to establish that the coin that is now questionable was in fact the one that was in the auction. Where was the auction and what state law would apply? Bowers and Ruddy does not really exist as that entity so can they still be pursued? That will likely depend on how any merger agreements were drafted in terms of who is responsible for successor liability. I am not 100% certain how the statute of limitations would work here... If the statute starts at the time you won the coin and took possession, I think you are SOL. On the otherhand, if an argument can be crafted that the SOL should commence from when you knew or should have known there was an issue with authenticity you might have a chance. But even then, the passage of 40 years is just not helpful, but the type of coin in question would likely be the best offset in that it really begs the question how often the pattern surfaces and is offered for sale? And why would you have reason to question the legitimacy of the coin considering where and how it was obtained? Good luck with your efforts. If the coin does not have significant value, it would then be easiest to resolve any dispute informally and well short of litigation.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,898 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Keep in mind that the expertise of the authenticator will likely be called into question because opinions are involved. Cases like this are not easily resolved. They grind time and money ... lots of money.

    All glory is fleeting.
  • atomatom Posts: 430 ✭✭✭✭

    it still is incumbent upon you to establish that the coin that is now questionable was in fact the one that was in the auction
    That is a non-issue; I won several lots from the auction including the one in question which is not pictured in the catalog.

    why would you have reason to question the legitimacy of the coin considering where and how it was obtained?
    I have confidence based on my experience that is genuine. It is a TPG claiming otherwise.

    If the coin does not have significant value, it would then be easiest to resolve any dispute informally and well short of litigation.
    It does not rank as significant value warranting litigation which would present numerous challenges. My OP was more about what options are available in such a case. I truly appreciate the perspectives presented.

    In your case too much time has passed. Just move on.
    Well said. I'm not fretting over this!

  • YQQYQQ Posts: 3,264 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Remember, with all TPG's you only pay for an opinion!
    I have recently been told: send it back and one of our experts will look at it again!!!!!
    thank you...

    Today is the first day of the rest of my life
  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,719 ✭✭✭✭✭

    it still is incumbent upon you to establish that the coin that is now questionable was in fact the one that was in the auction
    That is a non-issue; I won several lots from the auction including the one in question which is not pictured in the catalog.

    You may think it is a non-issue... but it remains an issue of fact for a jury to decide based upon evidence. The way it could become a non-issue if the parties stipulate that the coin which is the subject of your complaint was the one offered in the auction.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,898 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I hope this does not involve a very high value coin.

    All glory is fleeting.
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,891 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What is the coin???

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • tcollectstcollects Posts: 782 ✭✭✭✭

    we have enough clues to guess

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