Mark McGwire…Baseball hero or villain?
jordangretzkyfan
Posts: 2,447 ✭✭✭✭✭
I intentionally delayed watching ‘Long Gone Summer’ so I would not get caught up in the Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa hobby hype. However, I just finished watching the ESPN 30:30 documentary. It got me wondering if the hobby sees Mark McGwire as a hero or a villain? He has undeniably had a massive role in the game of baseball! His 49 home runs as a rookie set a record that would not be broken for over 30 years. He was part of Oakland’s “Bash Brothers” and won a World Series title alongside Jose Canseco and Ricky Henderson. He was also a 12x All-Star. Then when baseball needed a hero the most after the 1994 strike, Mark McGwire put fans back in the seats and baseball as the top nightly news story during the 1998 season.
When you see his stats you realize how prolific a HR hitter he was throughout his career. He is 11th all-time with 583 HR. More impressive is his 10.6 AB/HR which ranks #1 all-time ahead of guys like Ruth, Aaron and Bonds.
He admitted to using androstenedione during his latter career (not a banded substance at the time) and sporadically using PEDs when recovering from injuries. It is clear he was not a clean player throughout his career. That said, it is hard to refute the role he played in bringing the game back to life in the eyes of the casual fan.
I am not as talented as many board members here when it comes to creating “custom cards,” but can you imagine how hot this card would have been in the late 1980s? Fleer went with the #1 prospect in the farm system in Jose Canseco. Unfortunately, the original card featured the #2 prospect in the 1986 Oakland organization in pitcher Eric Plunk. However, there was a power hitting prospect that ranked #6 in the organization in 1986 that just wrapped up an amazing collegiate career at USC and helped the 1984 USA Olympic team bring home a Gold medal. Really wish Fleer would have used this combo…
After watching the documentary, it made me appreciate my 1985 Topps McGwire that much more. This is an iconic card from the 1980s and is arguably a top 5 rookie from that decade, alongside the 80T Henderson, 82TT Ripken, 86TT Bonds and 89UD Griffey. Love him or hate him, there is no debating he was a major contributor to the history of baseball…
So what do you think…hero or villain?
Comments
Neither.
He ruined his legacy. Should not be allowed around a baseball diamond. Now during every pregame and baseball games, all I see are gambling ads. Pete Rose should be allowed in the HOF. A little off topic.
i think that mcgwire is both. he was good for baseball when he chased maris record and helped baseball over the strike of 94. then he is bad for baseball because of the steriod abuse he helped create in the early nineties. now i know alot of players besides him were taking steriods without steriods he probably does not reach seventy home runs in a single season. i bought this nine topps rookie about five years ago to upgrade my beckett nine that i spent twice as much for. i am a big mcgwire fan since i am a diehard cardinals fan.
Pete rose should be in the Hall. Not these knuckleheads.
I am of the mindset that the majority of 1990s pro athletes took something to enhance performance. I think it is kind of silly to single out some of them. From a nostalgia standpoint, I don’t like them having records that have existed from eras before PEDs, but other than that it doesn’t really bother me.
Bosox1976
I agree. Here are a seven players from the era who have the numbers but aren't in the HOF due to PEDs:
Clemens, Bonds, M. Ramirez, Palmeiro, McGwire, Sosa, A.Rodriguez.
On the other hand, Griffey and Ripken are in. Did they not use PEDs or not get caught?
Like Bosox1976, I don't like the fact that they have the records that were in place before PEDs.
Always looking for Mantle cards such as Stahl Meyer, 1954 Dan Dee, 1959 Bazooka, 1960 Post, 1952 Star Cal Decal, 1952 Tip Top Bread Labels, 1953-54 Briggs Meat, and other Topps, Bowman, and oddball Mantles.
Many misunderstand anabolic hormones. In and of themselves, they are of no use. Inject or ingest them, sit on the couch, pray for gains in muscle mass, and none will come. Like a lone hammer in a tool box, Anabolics cannt build a house. You need a full compliment of other tools working in concert, and building materials to construct a house, and the more you have of these materials and most importantly, the more latent talent and ability you have to effectively swing that hammer and place those nails, the stronger your home will be.
Aside from wasting diseases, what they were designed to treat in the first place, these anabolics/androgenics will promote muscle hypertrophy. Increase muscle mass and density. What they can't do is improve your reflexes and batting eye. While they will help you to build more muscle (used effectively in a regimen of exercise designed to promote muscle gains) with proper exercise stimulus, diet, and rest, and thus increase your power to drive a ball, they will not help you in any way to make actual contact with the ball!
2 villains, McGwire I still can tolerate, Clemens not so much.
I get it, but Clemens was a BEAST before and after the juice. GREAT pitcher and I am an avid OU fan so I should hate him.
Exactly. To my mind, he's just kind of a sad spud.
It is very easy to see when McGwire started using steroids regularly and it is in the very early 90's. It's been stated that he was using them as early as his days at USC which was known to be a factory for steroid use even in the 80's. If you take McGwires averages prior to heavy steroid use (first 6 years 1986-1991) and apply those averages to the at-bats he has from 1992-2001 you basically get the same exact career outcome as Dave Kingman.
Now let's take a look at the impact that the McGwire/Sosa home run charade had on MLB as a whole. Yes, at first it helped put a few people back into the seats after losing many fans over the years from lack of interest, the strikes, and most importantly the impact of popularity that the NFL and NBA had on MLB. The reality is that the true impact that McGwire and Sosa had on the sport was far worse. Steroids and cheating drove way more fans away from the game than it brought in. As people discovered the extent to which these players had cheated and saw the bigger picture many wanted nothing to do with the MLB. Still to this day when anyone starts hitting home runs at a good pace they are automatically challenged (for good reason) by the public as they are suspected as steroid users. This can almost assuredly be directly connected with McGwire and Sosa.
McGwire's word cannot be trusted. He has lied over and over through the years and no doubt continues to be deceptive about the truth in order to try to salvage his tainted accolades.
Impossible to predict. The potential for muscle mass gains is genetically predetermined. The way to have the same genetic potential, the same predisposition to build functional muscle as Mark McGwire is to be Mark McGwire.
Anabolics require receptors for uptake. This is genetically predisposed. Another thing anabolics will not do is to change the ratio of fast and slow twitch muscle fibers, again, this being genetics, which is why some 6 foot tall 160 pounders can throw a baseball at 95 mph, and some 6'4" 240 pounders who can out-bench the 160 pounder by double have a hard time getting into the 80 mph range.
Anabolics are not the magic bullet that most think they are. For some, they have a negligible effect. For some, a moderate effect, and for someone like McGwire, who had the genetics and skills necessary to hit 70 homers in a season, they were one tool among others and not the entire tool chest.
Exactly.
A hero will unhesitatingly place his life in peril, in order to save someone's life.
A villain deliberately causes that peril.
Slugging pct. is not in either category.
@Mo_Mentum
I don’t think anyone here believes Joe Schmo will become a home run machine by using steroids. Obviously, any major league level player already has a significant degree of ability, but so do all of his fellow players. The relative effect of steroid use among that cohort is still very significant.
I think McGwire is a likable guy, keeping him out of the villain role. However, he isn't a hero either. Neutral is best answer.
I'm fully going with villain as he had ample opportunity to be a hero and chose the easy cowards way out every single time.
At the 2005 Republican led but rare bipartisan supported House committee hearings McGwire could have so very easily "manned-up", shown remorse, and spoke in frank terms regarding his actions. His legacy was already always going to be forever tarnished but If he had been a "hero" during the hearings, perhaps some positive change could have been effected?
Instead McGwire quintupled down on covering his own posterior as he repeated over and over and over utter tripe such as "I'm not here to talk about the past". Then hid whimpering behind "My foundation helps out neglected and abused children." Seriously trying to deflect by out of nowhere referencing abused children. NO HERO WOULD EVER DO THAT!
I've less than zero respect for him since that March 17, 2005 day, nor have ever thought about acquiring any of his cards since then. Amazing that the recent wave of 80's/90's Nostalgia is glossing over the fact that at absolute best McGwire is a craven coward
I do not care what anyone else did during those times the topic subject is McGwire. Forget his numbers, forget his metrics, his actions are certainly not of a hero and I've no nostalgia for someone who if not a "villain" is simply a pathetic coward.
P.S. March 17, 2005 US Congressional transcripts can be found via simple web searches. Here's a quick result for you:
https://www.masslive.com/sports/2010/01/im_not_here_to_talk_about_the.html . One could even create a new drinking game by taking a shot every time Andro-Boy, clothed in what at the time was a $10,000USD suit, stated: "I'm not here to talk about the past"
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
All of his fellow players simply do not have the same chance to become a home run hitting machine given steroids, not to any type of degree that every body builder has a chance to become Arnold Schwarzenegger, or any other Mr. Olympia (Champion of Champions) in history depending upon the quality and amount of their gear.
McGwire had to potential to become a home run hitting machine because he had Mark McGwire's physiology, genetics, ability, and work ethics. Same as one bodybuilder sets himself apart from millions of others, many of which are taking the same drugs in the same quantity, combined with the same diet, the same type of training, etc., etc., and only one of these can become Mr. Olympia.
There are far more things that steroids can not do than what they can do and that depends far more upon the user than the drugs.
BTW I do want to mention McGwire did display plenty of class towards the Maris family and the memory of Roger during the 98 campaign. Kudos for that.
Still none of that whatsoever changes my opinion of him that culminated in his possibly planned CYA choreographed cowardice that culminated on March 17, 2005
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
Neither
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
Performance enhancing drug use is prevalent in every sport where superior power and speed are key to a winning edge. Where hypertrophied muscle mass will allow a ball to be driven further, whether by a bat, a club, a tennis racket, or anything else where a little extra "oomph" behind the strike is an asset. It's prevalent in football, boxing, MMA, wrestling, both amateur and professional, men or women and any sports where extra aggression is a plus.
Most clinicians do not even know how to properly test for all types of exogenous male-hormone androgens because both men and women produce them naturally! Every steroid has a different half-life profile, that is, how long they remain in the body and are detectible, GIVEN THE RIGHT TEST FOR THEM. Some that fighters use are water based testosterone derivatives (suspensions) and are out of the body, not detectible after 24 hours or less.
Point being made that although McGwire was made the poster boy for athletic steroid use, he's one of uncountable numbers of athletes using gear. When asked, they all say the same thing with a straight face, "I'm natural. I don't use steroids". From the ones with a 130 mph serve to the ones that are 5'8" and carrying 300 contest pounds of rock hard striated muscle.
??? , His use of PED's is not something I mentioned. Please re-read my post you will see it has nothing to do with your reply. Was my post the intended target for your reply?
He is a coward as evidenced by his actions before, after and especially of March 17, 2005 that is what forms basis of my opinion.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
I loved watching him as a player and respected him for staying in St Louis even though he could've easily made more money...but I was beyond disappointed to find out he was indeed using 'roids during that 1998 season. But at least he didn't seem like nearly as much a POP TART "Me Bear" that Barry Bonds was. And the sad thing about Barry is that he was totally a HOF player already but because he was so jelly of all the attention Griffey/Thomas and later McGwire/Sosa were getting it drove him to the Dark Side.
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
I played major college athletics in the late 80's and 90's. To compete at high levels and get to the PROS, athletes will do a lot of things to get an advantage. At that time, it was not illegal to do a lot of the enhancers (for college they were illegal). They did change the rules of that toward the late 90's. But, just because you lift weights or take muscle enhancers assures you 0% that you can hit a baseball or throw a baseball harder or more accurately.
McGwire was just a great player. Bonds was a great player. If it was all about steroids then Lou F or Arnold S would hold all the major league records for home runs. Baseball is mostly about skill.
I have to disagree olb.
While baseball definitely is about skill hitting a baseball becomes a lot easier when using PED's. Your reaction time is quicker as your bat dramatically increases. Yes, having a good eye helps but being able to wait for a split second longer as well as when you make contact with the ball jumping off the bat at tremendous speeds will have a huge impact on the player's success in MLB. It also sets the pitcher up to be a huge disadvantage as pitches he normally could throw that were either not hit or could contact was not made are now being hit out of the park severely limiting his potential for success. This is also why you saw a dramatic increase in walks for many of the steroid stars. Here is the McGwire example I posted a while back.
1986-1991 (Pre heavy use of steroids)
.244 average
2656 at bats
178 home runs (1 home run per 14.92 at bats)
.488 Slugging %
.839 OPS
1992-2001 (Obvious steroid use era)
.277 average (33 points higher)
3531 at bats
405 home runs (1 home run per 8.71 at bats) (50% increase!)
.663 slugging % (50% increase!)
1.088 OPS (.250 higher!)
1986-2001 (factor all McGwire's at bats and utilize his averages from the Pre heavy use steroid era)
.244 average
6187 at bats
414 home runs (1 home run per 14.92 at bats)
.488 slugging %
.839 OPS
Dave Kingman career stats
.236 avg
6677 at bats
442 home runs (1 home run per 15.10 at bats
.478 slugging%
.780 OPS
** it should be pointed out that McGwire's batting average in the the 3 years prior to 1992 where steroid usage become blatant and obvious was as follows.
1989 .231 490 at bats 33 home runs
1990 .235 523 at bats 39 home runs
1991 .201 483 at bats 22 home runs
totals for this period
.223 average
1496 at bats
94 home runs (1 home run per 15.91 at bats
.448 slugging average
.795 OPS
To sum it up. Without steroids, he is Dave Kingman. And for those of you that tout McGwires stature as the reason for his success and not the steroids...Dave Kingman was 6'6 220 and his nickname was King Kong.
^^very good example of what happens when a major league player with some talent can do with the help of steroids.^^
While villain maybe too strong, hero is insulting imho. That era chased away many life long fans including me and Mac was one of the poster children
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Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
What a shame Kingman missed the boat. All he had to do was jack a few hundred mg. of test weekly and he would have hit 100 homers per year, it's that easy!
I'm thinking about dosing up, heading down to the Salt Flats and breaking the 1000 mph barrier, no car needed, just the gear and feets don't fail me now!
Baseball was dying...the HR race with Sosa brought a lot of people back to baseball. It was an exciting time. As far as steroids, he wasn't doing what 95% of every other ball player was doing. I am also in the side of letting Pete Rose in the HOF but not back in the game.
Baseball flatlined after the steroids scandal of which McGwire was the face. So while you can give out temporary credit for McGwire and Sosa and the others that orchestrated the home run race for putting people back into the seats after the strike they were also heavily responsible for the aftermath of the steroids scandal which decimated baseball and only 15 years later is it starting to come back to become fans.
Currently, the NFL and NBA are by far the dominant sports in America. MLB is a distant 3rd and potentially at risk of losing ground to Soccer. The younger generations in the US barely even care about baseball as most prefer playing basketball, football, soccer, or non-traditional sports like skateboarding. Baseball is being kept alive now by the influx of players from Latin America which now makes up 33% of all players. In the mid-'90s that number was just 10%. In 10+ years that figure should jump up to nearly 50%. There is something quite humorous about the only thing keeping the "American Pasttime" afloat is non-Americans.
Nobody using performance enhancing gear AND abusing pain meds in the NFL?
Why are chemically engineered and enhanced players accepted and embraced by fans in football and not in baseball? I wonder why the same fans that lost interest in baseball because of the drug use don't bat an eye when it comes to the use of drugs in football.
Also, gear PLUS pain killers is a prescription for disaster. That's why there's as much violence off the football field as there is on the field. Although now, the news suppresses incidents of it and covers for the NFL as much as possible.
One might think, "OK. Steroids induce mood swings, thus sometimes rage. They are pure male hormones = aggression. Pain killers are a downer, so they will calm down someone experiencing "roid rage". But not so. It doesn't work that way. While normally, pain killers alleviate pain and have a calming effect on most, ingested by a steroid user, what the pain killers do is mute the user's ability to rein in the rage. Adding pain killers to roid-rage is like pulling the control rods out of a reactor's core. Instead of containing the rage, the pain killers "stupefying" effect on the mind relax the control, and then you have a situation like Chris Benoit whose depressive side won out over his manic state.
I just find the double standard puzzling.
your fooling yourself if you think all superstars aren't doing something to get an edge. and they have been for a long time. too much coin involved.
And ironically, they wind up cutting themselves with that edge. Steroids are no joke. They work like the picture of Dorian Gray did. How bad you look on the inside is inversely proportionate to how good, how strong you look on the outside. This is how they work. They can turn you from Jimmy Olsen into Superman but to do this, they kill you inside.
Gear works synergistically. On your entire body, not just the muscles. It can turn your heart from a first class pump squeezing 60% of it's volume of blood through your heart with each beat into a 3rd class, leaky pump, barely squeezing 20% of it's volume. Gear can turn your blood into sludge, so overloaded with RBCs that your joints start to look purple. It has disasterous effects on your liver, your kidneys, your skin, etc., and worst of all, your mind. It is a mind altering drug, make no mistake about it. It can turn minor mood swings, minor manic and depressive states into wild, out of control swings of a pendulum.
Gear can turn Dr. Jekyll into Mr Hyde. What it is in that syringe is pure, unadulterated, uncontrolled YOU. Just more of you, without constraints, uncontrolled and unfiltered.
It's also a young man's drug. Athletes that try to continue use into their 30s and 40s don't last long after. The heart is typically the culprit. The damage done by using gear is for the most part permanent. It is quite literally a "Make a deal with the Devil" drug, never mistake it for anything other than that.
McGwire would be on my all time roid team, either at first base or dh. Help me fill out the rest of the team.
Pujols, Bonds, Trout, Sosa, Manny, Thome, Canseco, Griffey jr, Clemens and on and on, they all have done something to get an edge, probably even Nolan ryan. Steriods became a big item since the early 70's. Maybe even the late 60's. So everyone who has played during that time probably did them.
If you go back and watch alot of 70's and 80's movies, there are dudes that are just tremendously huge. Arnold made roids famous. Predator, Rocky movies, 007 movies.
Though the concept and experimentation into a practical use of steroids and what they can do actually began in the late 1800s, about fifty years later, steroids began to see use in the treatment of concentration camp survivors and then those with wasting illnesses. Took a while, but they worked to increase appetite. Up until the 1952 Olympics, their use was basically nil in athletics. But, soon after, US sports clinicians couldn't help but notice how Russian and Bulgarian strength athletes, weightlifters, shot putters, hammer and discus thrower, etc. were on the average performing at unexpected levels above the US athletes.
Soon, the secret was out, the playing field leveled, and steroids became a magic bullet. Muscular injuries healed faster (not tendons or ligaments; these are actually WEAKENED by steroids as the elasticity suffers and due to the added muscular strength while the tendons remain unaffected), and steroids crept their way into power-based athletics, from rank amateur levels to the pros.
In Ruth's day, physical rehab for an athlete was a cold bath alternating with diathermy treatment. Which was nothing more than a machine made by Raytheon that had an arm not unlike a metal bowl with a drum skin tightly stretched over it. In it, was a light bulb!!! Yep. A glorified heating pad.
No steroids back then in sports. But like a antiquated machinery, time marches on, and new tools are discovered. Steroids is one of them.
Didn't Willie Mays and Mike Schmidt push "greenies"? I don't mean they were trying to sell them but they told other players they should use them. As I had said, 95% of players were probably using something in some form or another. It continues to this day.
The popularity of baseball did not flatline after the steroid scandal in 2005 at all. In fact, it rose from 2005 to where it peaked in 2007 (just google mlb ticket sales) and then had a slight drop and has remained quite steady until about 2016 and has been on a slight decline since.
The average age of baseball fans is 57 years old. Just 7% of baseball's audience is below the age of 18.
The baby boomer generation is basically the only thing keeping baseball from collapse. Baseball was the sport they grew up with and still hold on to. Once they die off and that is not too far away from happening then what is MLB going to do? Gen X and the millennials grew up with the NFL and NBA. Gen Z barely even recognizes MLB.
The math is pretty simple.
That has yet to be seen. Also, there was no evidence at all that baseball flatlined after the scandal.
Of the Villains he is the most beloved.... perhaps. One can see that clearly in his card prices..... he is still revered.
Neither.