Why are Voce Populis listed in the Red Book?

MrEureka

Any good reason besides “tradition”?

Seems ridiculous to me.

Cameonut

Way back in the early '60's I got my first Red Book. I have wondered about that for almost 60 years.
Maybe someone will know.

PerryHall

Why do you feel that it shouldn't be in the Red Book?

LanceNewmanOCC

iirc, this country had a lot of diversity even hundreds of years ago and one of the races i recall reading about were irishmen and this is an iris related coin i think so they probably circulated over here and since that section of the redbook has been exceedingly expanded, i presume to acknowledge and inform us of our rich and diverse ancestry.

sellitstore

I think that your answer can be found on the Notre Dame website.

"Zelinka, who has studied the Voce Populi series in detail, came to the conclusion that Nineteenth century numismatists associated them with British evasion coppers and colonial counterfeits of British halfpence (Tory coppers), thus it was assumed they had made their way to the American colonies."

They are listed in the redbook because 19th century numismatists classified them with other coins that circulated in America, even though it appears that these coins weren't made for or shipped to America in any quantity. The redbook is in error and these should not be included.

LanceNewmanOCC

@sellitstore said:
even though it appears that these coins weren't made for or shipped to America in any quantity. The redbook is >in error and these should not be included.

.
does the context of "in any quantity" mean; a. not any at all or b. not very many?

MrEureka

@LanceNewmanOCC said:

@sellitstore said:
even though it appears that these coins weren't made for or shipped to America in any quantity. The redbook is >in error and these should not be included.

.
does the context of "in any quantity" mean; a. not any at all or b. not very many?

As far as I'm concerned, the RB should only include colonial era coins that played a meaningful part in the story of American coinage. I don't think there were enough Voce Populis used here for the coins to meet that standard.

oldabeintx

There are others that are rather inappropriate inclusions in the Redbook as "colonials", and some IMO that should be included (admittedly I haven't looked in a while). Former: e.g. Mott tokens, 19th century Washington pieces, Latter: End of Pain tokens (arguably). My colonial type set is more selective for the most part, eschewing a number of traditional items. And I include many more foreign coins that actually circulated here. No VP included.

sellitstore

@LanceNewmanOCC said:

@sellitstore said:
even though it appears that these coins weren't made for or shipped to America in any quantity. The redbook is >in error and these should not be included.

.
does the context of "in any quantity" mean; a. not any at all or b. not very many?

b.) Not very many. The article that I cite above mentions two or three examples found in the ground by metal detectors. This number is consistent with U.S. finds of European coppers NOT imported to the colonies for use here.

Nic

@MrEureka said:

@LanceNewmanOCC said:

@sellitstore said:
even though it appears that these coins weren't made for or shipped to America in any quantity. The redbook is >in error and these should not be included.

.
does the context of "in any quantity" mean; a. not any at all or b. not very many?

As far as I'm concerned, the RB should only include colonial era coins that played a meaningful part in the story of American coinage. I don't think there were enough Voce Populis used here for the coins to meet that standard.

I agree. And the "Continental Dollars" the same.
The CD are a token not a coin, made abroad and never circulated, no meaningful part in the story of early American coinage, etc.
At least a VP is a coin.

coinsarefun

@oldabeintx said:
There are others that are rather inappropriate inclusions in the Redbook as "colonials", and some IMO that should be included (admittedly I haven't looked in a while). Former: e.g. Mott tokens, 19th century Washington pieces, Latter: End of Pain tokens (arguably). My colonial type set is more selective for the most part, eschewing a number of traditional items. And I include many more foreign coins that actually circulated here. No VP included.

.
.
Granted I have not bought or looked at a red book in many years. Did I understand you
right that they include End of Pain tokens ?

crazyhounddog

@LanceNewmanOCC said:
iirc, this country had a lot of diversity even hundreds of years ago and one of the races i recall reading about were irishmen and this is an iris related coin i think so they probably circulated over here and since that section of the redbook has been exceedingly expanded, i presume to acknowledge and inform us of our rich and diverse ancestry.

You can take off your mask now.

jmlanzaf

At this point, it is tradition. Personally, I'm fine with that.

There are a myriad of foreign coins that circulated here. I'm not sure there needs to be a guideline for what any collector chooses to include. I'm also not sure there needs to be a strict guideline for what a reference chooses to include. Those guidelines (IMHO) could also be loosest for British/British colonial pieces since we were, of course, ourselves a colony.

jmlanzaf

@Nic said:

@MrEureka said:

@LanceNewmanOCC said:

@sellitstore said:
even though it appears that these coins weren't made for or shipped to America in any quantity. The redbook is >in error and these should not be included.

.
does the context of "in any quantity" mean; a. not any at all or b. not very many?

As far as I'm concerned, the RB should only include colonial era coins that played a meaningful part in the story of American coinage. I don't think there were enough Voce Populis used here for the coins to meet that standard.

I agree. And the "Continental Dollars" the same.
The CD are a token not a coin, made abroad and never circulated, no meaningful part in the story of early American coinage, etc.
At least a VP is a coin.

Probably true, but that would be a controversial exclusion even if accurate.

MrEureka

@jmlanzaf said:

@Nic said:

@MrEureka said:

@LanceNewmanOCC said:

@sellitstore said:
even though it appears that these coins weren't made for or shipped to America in any quantity. The redbook is >in error and these should not be included.

.
does the context of "in any quantity" mean; a. not any at all or b. not very many?

As far as I'm concerned, the RB should only include colonial era coins that played a meaningful part in the story of American coinage. I don't think there were enough Voce Populis used here for the coins to meet that standard.

I agree. And the "Continental Dollars" the same.
The CD are a token not a coin, made abroad and never circulated, no meaningful part in the story of early American coinage, etc.
At least a VP is a coin.

Probably true, but that would be a controversial exclusion even if accurate.

I wouldn't exclude the Continental Dollars or other traditionally accepted colonial era tokens and medals of clear American interest. No problem with a New York Theatre or Kentucky token, for example, as long as they're categorized appropriately. But the Voce Populis seem like a mistake that should be corrected.

MidLifeCrisis

A few Voce coppers have been dug up in areas known to have been settled by the Confederation period of Colonial-era America, including one example that was unearthed in upper State New York and another that was uncovered on a plantation in Port Deposit, Maryland.