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Need Norweb plate matching help
tradedollarnut
Posts: 20,147 ✭✭✭✭✭
Which of these two specimens matches the Norweb plate for the original 1827 quarter?
2
tradedollarnut
Posts: 20,147 ✭✭✭✭✭
tradedollarnut
Posts: 20,147 ✭✭✭✭✭
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Pcgs coin in upcoming StacksBowers sale. NGC coin in 2008 Heritage sale.
That was my thought, a cross over to PCGS.
Not the same coin. After looking at the plates online, I think NGC attributed the wrong provenance
Either Norweb had 2 of them in the sale, or one of them is attributed wrong. They don't even look like the same coin to me:
Edit - Norweb II did have 2 of them in the sale, although they are catalogued as an original and a restrike
https://archive.org/details/norwebcollection0000bowe_y5n1/page/44/mode/2up?q=1827
Lot 1542 - Original Proof 64 or finer
Lot 1543 - Restrike Proof 65
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
The obvious giveaway they are not the same coin is the rim damage on the 2nd coin between stars 8 + 9.
Bruce, I'd need to double check my Norweb Catalogue, but I believe there was only one 1827/3 Original quarter in the Sale.
I also believe it is the PCGS coin, not the NGC coin. Joe O'Connor would certainly know...
Lot 1542 1827/3 B-1 Original curved base 2 in date. PR64 or finer (gem proof) which matches the top darker one in the photo in the prior post.
Lot 1543 1827/3 B-2 Square base 2 on reverse. Restike. Proof 65. Of course is not a match
Exactly nine examples of this famous rarity are known, including one in the Smithsonian Institution. All except one are PF-60 or better. The exception is the Eliasberg specimen, a perfectly clean VF-20. - Denis Loring
It does appear the pedigree for the NGC coin is incorrect. I have shown images for all known, but the Smithsonian specimen.
Complete Roster of Nine Known 1827/3/2 Original Capped Bust Quarters
1. 1827/3 25C Original, B-1, Proof-66+ CAM (PCGS), Cert #31385748, Ex: Garrett / Pogue
Ex: Jeremiah Colburn Collection; W. Elliot Woodward’s sale of the John F. McCoy Collection, March 1864, lot 508; Heman Ely Collection; W. Elliot Woodward’s sale of the Heman Ely Collection, January 1884, lot 244, via George Massamore; T. Harrison Garrett Collection; T. Harrison Garrett to Robert and John Work Garrett, by descent, 1888; Robert Garrett interest to John Work Garrett, 1919; transfer completed 1921; John Work Garrett to The Johns Hopkins University, by gift, 1942; Bowers and Ruddy’s sale of the Garrett Collection, Part II, March 1980, lot 641; unknown intermediaries, Knoxville Collection, plated in the undated (2002) Knoxville Collection fixed price list by Jay Parrino’s The Mint, LLC; D. Brent Pogue Collection, Part I at Sotheby's, New York (Stacks Bowers 2/2015), Lot 1076, realized $705,000 (Auction Record); Current PCGS Registry Sets: None found.
2. 1827/3 25C Original, B-1, Proof-65 Cameo (PCGS), CAC Approved, Cert #09747599, Ex: Norweb
Ex: Joseph J. Mickley; W. Elliot Woodward's sale of the Joseph J. Mickley Collection, October 1867, lot 1706, offered with a Proof 1827 dime and half dollar; Joseph P. Reakirt; Columbus Stamp & Coin, appeared at the 1962 ANA Convention; Ambassador and Mrs. R. Henry Norweb; our (Bowers and Merena's) sale of the Norweb Collection, Part II, March 1988, lot 1542; our (Bowers and Merena's) Stetson University Collection sale, May 1993, lot 224; Dr. William Morton-Smith / Rarities Night, featured in the upcoming August 2021 ANA Auction (Stacks Bowers 8/2021)
3. 1827/3 25C Original, B-1, PR65 (PCGS), Cert #50242720, Ex: Brand / Morelan
Ex: Joseph Zanoni Collection (Edward Cogan, 4/1867), lot 103; Thomas Cleneay; Cleneay Collection (S.H. & H. Chapman, 12/1890), lot 1339; John G. Mills (S.H. & H. Chapman, 4/1904), lot 999; William B. Wetmore; Wetmore Collection (S.H. & H. Chapman, 6/1906), lot 396; Virgil Brand, Journal number 33836; Waldo Newcomer; A.J. Allen; George H. Hall, per B. Max Mehl, but there was no example of the 1827 Original quarter in Hall's collection when it was sold by Stack's in May of 1945; Jerome Kern Collection (B. Max Mehl, 5/1950), lot 1412; New Netherlands Coin Company; Wayte Raymond; Sale 49 (New Netherlands, 6/1957), lot 1149; Dorothy Nelson; ANA Convention Sale (Stack's, 8/1976), lot 962; Auction '80 (Stack's, 8/1980), lot 1177; Marcus J. Brown Collection (Bowers and Merena, 11/1983), lot 2981; Dodson/Collier Collections (Bowers and Merena, 6/1984), lot 3975; Auction '89 (Superior, 7/1989), lot 570; unknown intermediaries; private collection; The Greensboro Collection, Part VII / FUN US Coins Signature Auction (Heritage 1/2019), lot 446, realized $444,000, Bruce Morelan Collection; Exclusively Legend (Legend Rare Coin Auctions 10/2019), lot 42, Passed; unknown intermediaries; Sunday Internet Sale (GreatCollections 6/2020), Passed; Current PCGS Registry Sets: None found.
4. 1827/3 25C Original, B-1, PR64 (PCGS) CAC Approve, Cert #50052511, Ex: Parmelee
Ex: George F. Seavey Collection - W. H. Strobridge 6/1873, not sold (Lorin G. Parmelee purchased the collection intact before the auction took place) - Lorin G. Parmelee Collection - New York Stamp & Coin Co. 6/1890:975, $171 - Col. E.H.R. Green - B.G. Johnson (invoice 6/29/1943) - F.C.C. Boyd Collection - Numismatic Gallery “World’s Greatest Collection” 3/1945:89, $2,400 - Will W. Neil Collection - B. Max Mehl 6/1947:897, $1,700 - James A. Stack Collection - Stack’s 2/1975:29, $50,000 - Paramount International Rare Coin List 6/1975 - Dan Drykerman - Bowers & Merena 5/1992:1172 (as Raw Proof-63 or so), $60,500 (plate-matched to the following) - O’Connor Numismatics, offered in 2007; Current PCGS Registry Sets: This cert is currently featured in one or more sets.
5. 1827/3 25C Original, B-1, PR64 (PCGS) CAC, Approved, Cert #50052511, Ex: Gardner
Ex: Arthur G. Coffin by December 1867, per a letter from Edward Cogan to Joseph Reakirt; Col. James H. Taylor Collection but not part of Taylor's consignment (William Strobridge, 11/1875), lot 1236; John G. Kellogg Sale (Thomas Elder, 10/1916), lot 1409; Virgil Brand, (Brand Journal number 81228); Armin Brand; F.C.C. Boyd; World's Greatest Collection (Numismatic Gallery, 3/1945), lot 89; Will W. Neil; Neil Collection (B. Max Mehl, 6/1947), lot 897; B. Max Mehl, offered in a full-page ad in the March 1952 The Numismatist, page 289; R.L. Miles; Miles Collection, Part II (Stack's, 4/1969), lot 898; H. Philip Speir; Speir Collection (Stack's, 3/1974), lot 20; ANA Convention Auction (Kagin's, 8/1977), lot 1175; Auction '79 (Stack's, 7/1979), lot 581; Arnold and Romisa Collections (Bowers and Merena, 9/1984), lot 2653; Baltimore Sale (Superior, 7/1993), lot 324; Harold Rothenberger Sale (Superior, 1/1994), lot 1248; May Auction (Superior, 5/1994), lot 576; September Auction (Superior, 9/1998), lot 251; The Eugene H. Gardner Collection of US Coins Signature Auction (Heritage 6/2014), lot 30357, realized $411,250; Current PCGS Registry Sets: This cert is currently featured in one or more sets.
6. 1827/3 25C Original, B-1,PR63 (PCGS), Cert #06573184, Ex: Farouk / Pittman
Ex: William Long, circa 1857; Robert Coulton Davis, circa 1867; R.C. Davis Collection (New York Coin & Stamp, 1/1890), lot 1425; Harlan Page Smith Collection (S.H. & H. Chapman, 6/1906), lot 779 (misattributed as a Restrike); H.O. Granberg, exhibited at the 1914 ANS Exhibition; Waldo Newcomer; Charles M. Williams; Abe Kosoff and Abner Kreisberg; Adolphe Menjou Collection (Numismatic Gallery, 6/1950), lot 696; King Farouk; Palace Collections of Egypt (Sotheby's, 2/1954), lot 1688; John Jay Pittman; Pittman Collection, Part II (David Akers, 5/1988 as previously lacquered and subsequently cleaned), lot 1283; Americana Sale (Stack's, 1/2004), lot 3700; J.B. Worthington Collection (American Numismatic Rarities, 5/2005), lot 200; The Sweet Bloomfield Collection / FUN US Coins Signature Auction (Heritage 1/2015), lot 4082, realized $188,000; Current PCGS Registry Sets: This cert is currently in a user's private Set Registry Inventory.
7. 1827/3 25C Original, B-1, PR62 (NGC), Cert #1576757-017, Ex: Brand / Hawn
Ex: J Bohlen (1867); George Elliot sale (E. Locke Mason 1871); Henry Sampson Sale (1883), James Wilson; James Wilson Sale (Thomas Elder 1908), Virgil Brand; “California” Sale (Kagin’s 1949), Fred Guggenheimer; Fred Guggenheimer Sale (Stack’s 1953), William Owen. He loaned the coin to Yale University for display, stolen in 1965, recovered showing signs of cleaning and mishandling; Public Coin Auction (Quality Sales 1973), Reed Hawn; Reed Hawn Sale (Stack’s 1977), Ellis Robinson; Ellis Robinson Sale (Stack’s 1982); ‘90 Auction (Superior 1990), Charlton Meyer; anonymous consignor / (ANA) US Coin Signature Auction (Heritage 7/2008 as Norweb on insert), lot #1631, Passed, Note: Coin incorrectly labeled Norweb on insert with incorrect provenance in description. Coin has not reappeared in pass 12 years.
8. 1827/3 25C Original, B-1, Gem Proof (Uncertified)
National Numismatic Collection at the Smithsonian Institution
9. 1827/3 25C Original, B-1, PR20 (PCGS), Cert #05862389, Ex: Eliasberg
Ex: Ex. Nicholas Petry; S.H. Chapman Sale (1893); J.M. Clapp; Clapp Estate; Louis E. Eliasberg, Sr. II (Bowers & Merena 4/1997 as VF20/30 uncertified), lot 1391, $39,600; Pre-FUN04 (Superior Galleries 1/2004), lot 278, realized $63,250; Current PCGS Registry Sets: Coinbert Collection
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
The Pittman coin was doctored by the buyer soon after the sale. Its cleaning became much less evident. He had cause to be proud of his work. The process was not reversible. In the coin-doctoring cabal, that's called massive huevos on a coin that expensive. I'll check the catalogue at NNP for a good plate. Tom Mulvaney was the photographer (used to teach at Summer Seminar).
edited to add:
The hardbound from the sale has no color plate. DWA's description of lot 1283 (Pittman II) reads:
"1827/3, B-1. Original. Low Rarity-7, Proof.. Previously lacquered and subsequently cleaned. leaving the coin with light to moderate hairlines throughout the fields, which have very little of their original mirror surface"
The coin brought just under $50K.
"Weird scenes inside the gold mine"
Steve Tompkins’ “Auction Appearances and Prices Realized” for bust quarters makes note of the fact that the NGC PF62 holder incorrectly lists its coin as being the Norweb coin. The PCGS PF65 CAM coin is actually the Norweb coin.
Per Tompkins’ “Early United States Quarters” books, the NGC PF62 was stolen from the Yale University Library in 1965. When it resurfaced, it exhibited evidence of cleaning and mishandling.
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With assistance from @NSP, we are able to solve some of the mystery around coin #7. The coin was incorrectly offer as Ex: Norweb. The NGC insert could still carry the Norweb name. Beware!
7. 1827/3 25C Original, B-1, PR62 (NGC), Cert #1576757-017, Ex: Brand / Hawn
Ex: J Bohlen (1867); George Elliot sale (E. Locke Mason 1871); Henry Sampson Sale (1883), James Wilson; James Wilson Sale (Thomas Elder 1908), Virgil Brand; “California” Sale (Kagin’s 1949), Fred Guggenheimer; Fred Guggenheimer Sale (Stack’s 1953), William Owen. He loaned the coin to Yale University for display, stolen in 1965, recovered showing signs of cleaning and mishandling; Public Coin Auction (Quality Sales 1973), Reed Hawn; Reed Hawn Sale (Stack’s 1977), Ellis Robinson; Ellis Robinson Sale (Stack’s 1982); ‘90 Auction (Superior 1990), Charlton Meyer; anonymous consignor / (ANA) US Coin Signature Auction (Heritage 7/2008 as Norweb on insert), lot #1631, Passed, Note: Coin incorrectly labeled Norweb on insert with incorrect provenance in description. Coin has not reappeared in pass 12 years.
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004