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What kind of die alignment causes this on a Pattern? Doubling effect?

retirednowretirednow Posts: 546 ✭✭✭✭✭

I am not sure how one would classify this double effect and wonder if one of you might help me understand this.

It is a Proof Pattern Dollar struck in copper - Note the word "STANDARD" and the large offset in the elements and similar but smaller offset in letters in "DOLLAR" in opposite direction

I have read through info at Error-ref.com but nothing jump out at me

Thanking you all in advance

OMG ... My Mother was Right about Everything!
I wake up with a Good Attitude Every Day. Then … Idiots Happen!

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  • IkesTIkesT Posts: 3,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2021 2:42PM

    Looks like it may be double struck in collar with a slight rotation of the coin between strikings.

  • MWallaceMWallace Posts: 4,148 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very interesting. We need @FredWeinberg on this one.

  • MedalCollectorMedalCollector Posts: 1,981 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2021 3:06PM

    I agree - double struck in collar with slight rotation. All design elements are doubled, not just the lettering.

    It’s not a super uncommon thing on patterns.

  • ByersByers Posts: 1,602 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It’s double struck with 5% rotation. There are several of these that are double struck in the Standard Silver $ patterns. Here is a silver one that I sold that is double struck:

    mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
  • Steven59Steven59 Posts: 8,753 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'll just make a guess at a problem with the hub. It doesn't look raised as in a doubled die???? Just throwing it out there for discussion.

    "When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"

  • 1Bufffan1Bufffan Posts: 643 ✭✭✭

    Maybe they (Mint Engraver) repositioned the letters for better Balance for the final design layout? just my guess..

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @retirednow said:
    I am not sure how one would classify this double effect and wonder if one of you might help me understand this.

    It is a Proof Pattern Dollar struck in copper - Note the word "STANDARD" and the large offset in the elements and similar but smaller offset in letters in "DOLLAR" in opposite direction

    have you looked it over REALLY close in-hand? it's not too far a stretch that items like this can be multi-struck with the others being so close they are difficult to discern unless you really look for them. the 1 in the at the top kinda has that look.

    there are many vams identified (morgan dollars) that have 3, 4, 5, 6 etc strikes that you can only just notice unless you know what to look for. i've found one of the 83p morgans that is sextupled noticeable on the left stars especially. even in au it was pretty apparent.

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  • FredWeinbergFredWeinberg Posts: 5,839 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes, it's a D/S 'close overlap'

    When Numismatics, Ltd., bought the Judd Collection from
    Abe Kossoff, I looked at every piece, and made a note of
    any errors or anomalies I found.

    There were 2-3 nice D/S Patterns, and numerous others
    that looked like the OP's - very closely overlapped Double
    Strikes.....because of that, I consider them errors, yes, but
    not rare just because they're on Pattern coinage.

    Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors
    for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
  • retirednowretirednow Posts: 546 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @LanceNewmanOCC said:
    @Byers said:
    @GoldenEgg said:
    I agree - double struck in collar with slight rotation. All design elements are doubled, not just the lettering.
    @IkesT said:
    @MWallace said:
    Very interesting. We need @FredWeinberg on this one.
    @FredWeinberg said:
    Yes, it's a D/S 'close overlap'

    Guys ..thanks a lot
    I have not really focused on errors and "anomalies" before - maybe I should. I guess because of the bigger offset at the top of the piece I had noticed that it even carry down unto some to right side of the wreath.

    In any case I had not see this 1st hand before ... makes this piece a little more special for me
    Thanks again

    PS it is a Judd-1011 in PCGS Holder (w/cac)

    OMG ... My Mother was Right about Everything!
    I wake up with a Good Attitude Every Day. Then … Idiots Happen!

  • MWallaceMWallace Posts: 4,148 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It should be special to you. An interesting conversation piece that one doesn't see every day. Congratulations on acquiring the piece and noticing that it's double struck.

    BTW, I'm retirednow too. Isn't it great?

  • retirednowretirednow Posts: 546 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MWallace said:
    It should be special to you. An interesting conversation piece that one doesn't see every day. Congratulations on acquiring the piece and noticing that it's double struck.

    BTW, I'm retirednow too. Isn't it great?

    Thanks
    every Morning feels like Saturday Morning and every evening feels like a Friday evening ... it does not wear off - no matter what all those who are working will tell you it will ... and I am not going to give up handle :)

    OMG ... My Mother was Right about Everything!
    I wake up with a Good Attitude Every Day. Then … Idiots Happen!

  • MWallaceMWallace Posts: 4,148 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @retirednow said:

    @MWallace said:
    It should be special to you. An interesting conversation piece that one doesn't see every day. Congratulations on acquiring the piece and noticing that it's double struck.

    BTW, I'm retirednow too. Isn't it great?

    Thanks
    every Morning feels like Saturday Morning and every evening feels like a Friday evening ... it does not wear off - no matter what all those who are working will tell you it will ... and I am not going to give up handle :)

    I agree with EVERYTHING you just said. It's not unusual for me to check my phone 6 to 8 times a day just to see what day it is.

  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,393 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Seems like both sides would be DS - is that the case?? Why is the Byers coin called a DS Obverse??

    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.

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