Are retail bullion dealers suppressing the price of silver?
cohodk
Posts: 19,122 ✭✭✭✭✭
So it appears that there is relative apathy towards silver. Why is this?
Is it because the average J6P sees spot silver quoted at 26 but when he goes into a dealer is asked to pay 35-40? Folks like to get a deal. They like to make money. But do they feel like they are behind the eight ball immediately by paying 35 for something that is listed in the paper as being worth 25? Is this why the collective refuses to take down inventory?
Suppose all the retail outlets sold physical at spot, would then all the inventory be take up thus creating scarcity resulting in higher prices?
Excuses are tools of the ignorant
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
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Apathy toward silver? If so, why the record premiums?
Like many you fail to realize that paper silver and physical silver are two different markets with two different methods of price discovery. One has a fixed supply, the other an unlimited supply. Do your really think they should be priced the same. LOL
The price of gasoline futures is less than $2.15. The real stuff cost much more. Why is that?
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Because of added taxes. See i aint afraid of your questions. Or are you just trying to butter me up with these softball questions?
What else ya got?
What im saying, and i know you have a comprehension problem, is that if consumers felt they were getting a good deal then the increase in demand would result in higher prices.
Lower the price of physical to entice buyers and clear this glut of inventory.
Imagine the outcry if gasoline was priced 50% higher due to "premiums". Where is the outcry over silver premiums?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Here’s a basic question: if I take delivery of a gasoline future (42,000 gallons!), is it ready to use in my car?
And when we add the sales taxes and capital gains (at the higher collectible rate) taxes to a silver bar we have either reduced the sellers profit or increased the buyer's cost further explaining the premium on silver just as you just did for the premium on gasoline. Should I hang on to the leash?
You mean manipulate the price of phyiscal? lol. Glut and demand will always determine price in the real market.
Probably at the same place you will find the buyers who DO NOT understand the difference between paper and physical markets.
No more than is a 1,000 oz silver bar ready to put in my silver eagle Dansco album.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
People do not generally stage and photograph their gasoline and post the pictures to online "fuel porn" forum threads 😉
Dealers of precious metal trinkets charge as much as they can get and still sell. Collectors pay as much as they have to and still buy.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I thought gas futures were cash-settled?
https://www.cmegroup.com/markets/energy/refined-products/rbob-gasoline.contractSpecs.html
Thanks, MM. I guess I was “mini” correct.
Truer words were never said.
Amazing how free markets work.
Bi high sell lower. Unless you are willing to put in a little WORK!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
if consumers felt they were getting a good deal then the increase in demand would result in higher prices.
An increase in demand for some commodities stimulates more production as well, which then moderates price increases.
Lower the price of physical to entice buyers and clear this glut of inventory.
People generally try to limit loss and maximize profits, so lowering the price only makes sense if it enhances long term business prospects. Getting more of a losing proposition by lowering the price wouldn't make much sense.
Imagine the outcry if gasoline was priced 50% higher due to "premiums". Where is the outcry over silver premiums?
Gasoline is a consumable. Precious Metals are a financial asset. Big difference - they are not analogous. Premiums, spreads, commissions - all of these are business decisions that revolve around those same long term business prospects that I mentioned already.
I knew it would happen.
I miss those ebuck deals from a few years back. Those days are gone.
But i thought silver was rare?
Isnt silver a long term proposition? Isnt the idea to get as much as you can and lock it up? Whats the reason for owning physical silver then?
Youve proved my point. Consumers/stackers, will not enter into a losing position as long as physical trades at such premiums to spot. Its consumer demand vs dealer prices keeping silver suppressed.
Derryb made the.comparison. not me. Dont call him out, lest be labeled a troll.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Silver is a consumable to many of the COMEX participants who use it in their industry or refine it into different products. Stackers are not the only buyers.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
i thought silver was rare?
You and I both know that silver is mostly mined as a by-product, so the relationship between price and supply for silver is less elastic than for most commodities. But, you knew that before distracting from the real issue by asking if it is rare. No, silver isn't rare the way that platinum is rare, but so what?
Isnt silver a long term proposition? Isnt the idea to get as much as you can and lock it up? Whats the reason for owning physical silver then?
Silver doesn't have to be a long term proposition. The idea howver - is to lock up enough silver such that you have a comfortable hedge against the banking system's crappy fiat money, fractional reserve paradigm and manipulation of the money supply to serve their own interests, in addition to Congress's gross mismanagement of fiscal policy. You know what a hedge is, right?
Youve proved my point. Consumers/stackers, will not enter into a losing position as long as physical trades at such premiums to spot.
The caveat, which you did not recognize, is that stackers will evaluate premiums and make a decision to buy or sell based on the physical market at that time. Nobody pays much attention to paper prices when they aren't relevant to their own positions. There are undoubtedly times when a $10 premium on silver isn't a prohibitive factor in deciding to buy physical silver, and yes, premiums do fluctuate, based on actual market supply & demand. Most silver stackers readily see the games being played in the paper silver market - I'm surprised that you don't.
Derryb made the.comparison. not me. Dont call him out, lest be labeled a troll.
It appears to me that you are twisting derryb's point about 90 degrees in order to disparage what he said. He simply observed that there is buying & selling activity in the physical silver market - and no big outcry like there would be for gasoline if there was a 50% premium over the paper contract price. The reason? Gasoline isn't manipulated by paper contracts on Comex like silver is manipulated by the crooked bullion banks. The outcry over manipulation of gasoline prices would be much greater, so it's not as easy to manipulate, although Semcrude did try that with crude oil several years ago.
I knew it would happen.
So in the end of all this we've determined that there is lots of supply and no desire to increase demand.
Blitz might call this "life in the gutter".
Such a tiny market, in a global economy awash in excess liquidity. Yoda might say, "Strong is apathy with this one."
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
There is plenty of collectors interest in the old, or rare, or historic, or beautiful, or in perfect condition fetish items to buy and put in our lock boxes.
Almost none of those items will ever, ever become parts of cell phones or solar panels.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Silver is money.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
If so, then so are copper, nickel, steel, aluminum, and manganese, among other elements and alloys.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
did someone say copper?
When I say gutter metal I'm talking side of the road urban city chicken sewage. House gutters (especially copper ones) are at least 2 steps above gutter metal. Rgds!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
I only know that in previous years, silver cost a lot more than now , including premiums. And it was readily available. It's still readily available.
When we run out of mountains to mine....there's the ocean.
Any old timers remember $.25 per gallon fo gas ? I was 12, getting silver quarters in change, collecting on the paper route. Fast forward 40+ years. That silver quarter will afford us two gallons of gas. How do we measure mileage ?
I would not say it's apathy as much as disinterest, due to silver's stability and usefulness in technology, as one example. The industrial usage is staggering.
I would not refer to any one person or class of people as J6P, though I appreciate that, as an inference. The premiums that we commoners must fork out to acquire our blocks and rounds of "wealth preservation" ( even when there are thousands of other vehicles to grow wealth) , holds the savvy back until they can get a bargain at basement prices. Funny how the basement is upstairs now. Even if you cut all us small retailers working at 2-3% margins just to serve the community out; will the miners stop digging ? We ( collective, et al ) are a small part of a much larger equation.
But I will attest to the fact that albeit up and down.... the product keeps moving as fluid as milk and honey.
And the answer is an emphatic NO. We are not suppressing ____.
Are retail bullion dealers suppressing the price of silver?
And the answer is an emphatic NO. We are not suppressing ____.
He throws out red herrings all the time, and in this case he never explains the mechanism of exactly how dealers would be suppressing the price by maintaining wider spreads or higher asking prices. It's his typical approach to obfuscate what's going on.
I knew it would happen.
The Hogs are worried, they cant sleep at night the end is near .. Physical Silver is getting harder to get and the large investment firms are feeling the pressure. The people "THEY WANT THEIR SILVER AND THEY MUST WAIT TO GET IT "" keep asking for the physical silver .Its yours but you can't have it, you can ask but it does not come easy... Keep the pressure on keep buying.. !!
The buy/sell prices at retail bullion dealers such at APMEX are based on actual supply and demand and are really no different than a bid/ask price. While the retailer publishes these prices, they are ultimately determined by the customer who sends them their money or their bullion. This is how free markets function in a capitalistic system of competition.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
I thought the mechanism was self-evident. Isnt the goal to get all the silver into strong hands thus forcing a run on the paper markets, which the is supposed to "crash the system and allow silver to acheive its true value"? So how can the stackers ever take down all the physical silver if they are disuaded by high retail prices? Why would investors, especially new investors, ever buy silver for $40 when its quoted in the paper, interweb and tv at 26?
Silver needs a new marketing campaign. And while conspiracy theories bogus claims and fake news have taken ahold of society in recent years, silver needs something more to excite people. Dont you think silver would fly off the shelves if folk didnt feel like they were underwatwer by 40% or more as soon as rhey leave the shop?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Don’t buy monster boxes
Buy 1,000 ounce bars
Retailers are in business to make profit. They do this by squeezing every dollar they can from an ounce of silver. This is the opposite of suppressing the price.
It's a zero sum game for a dealer to drive down the price of what he is trying to sell. Different story if you are a bullion bank or a COMEX trader doing the bidding on behalf of the dollar puppeteers.
Silver and gold have provided fiat currency insurance for thousands of years. Today and tomorrow are no different.
Allstate Silver - are you in good hands?
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
No, as it has done for centuries it simply waits for the marketing campaign for the currency it is priced in to be exposed for the lies that they are. Like rust, silver (and gold) never sleeps.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Modus Operandi
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
I thought the mechanism was self-evident. Isnt the goal to get all the silver into strong hands thus forcing a run on the paper markets, which the is supposed to "crash the system and allow silver to acheive its true value"?
Maybe that's what you think, but my goal is to hedge against gov.com's and the banking system's malfeasance. The system doesn't need my help, it will crash on its own.
Dont you think silver would fly off the shelves if folk didnt feel like they were underwatwer by 40% or more as soon as rhey leave the shop?
Another diversionary red herring statement. Anyone buying physical silver can get a buy/sell quote from the dealer and that price doesn't involve a $14/oz. spread. It's more like $4.
I knew it would happen.
"Welcome to the gutter"? "There's a sucker born every minute"?? "Groundhog decade"??? THKS!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
Well, that depends on the form and appearance of "the silver", doesn't it?
Fancy high grade silver with fancy design and fancy packaging brings high premiums.
Old, rare, historic, and "cool looking" silver brings premium, high Quality premiums.
Boring, plain, common silver brings low, boring premiums
If it's ugly, bulky, weird alloy stuff, it goes for negative premium, i.e under spot, to get it sold.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Is it better to make $10 each on 10 sales, or $1 each on 1000 sales?
I believe the high premium prices are supressing sales to retail buyers and keeping new investors/stackers out of the market. Increase your sales base and you increase demand and prices will rise. The silver marketeers need to increase demand and liquidity but the retail sellers with huge premiums are doing the opposite.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Lol...thats 18% or more. Worse than buying a new car. And what a wonderful experience car buying is. Haha.
But a $4 loss is so much more palatable than an 18% loss. Talk about diversionary tactics. You guys crack me up.
The gist of this the whole conversation is that when a fake meme "currency", NFT, or other "virtual" asset can garner billions of dollar in days, and a 5000 year old chunk of shiny "money" struggles to sell a few million dollars in a day, theres a problem.
Yet those that would benefit from fixing the problem stand in the way. Who are the manipulators and manipulated?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Let me clarify it for you, and the problem has nothing to do with silver.
The gist of this the whole conversation is that when a fake meme "currency", NFT, or other "virtual" asset can garner billions of dollar in days.......................there's a problem
P.T. Barnum had some commentary about this type of uneducated speculation. Taking advantage of those people who aren't educated in banking finance is what the banks do. It's what they do. It's how they make their living.
Yet those that would benefit from fixing the problem stand in the way. Who are the manipulators and manipulated?
Another Red Herring statement. You apparently want people to think that the problem resides in the buy-sell spread of silver being offered by dealers, when you consistently run interference for the financial industry and the banks? Yes, I know - everything is booming as long as the financial industry can rope more people into paper assets.
Almost all paper assets are ballooning in price and as a result - they are already grossly overpriced from the trillions being fed into the system Behind the scenes, the banking and financial industry manipulators are scrambling every night to keep their kiting schemes from blowing sky-high.
Only the insiders benefit from foreknowledge, and this time is no different. They will get out of their risk assets before the asset re-pricing occurs. Most middle class Americans will see their stock values climb while their purchasing power disappears until reality rears it's head and they will own worthless paper. Gee, you would think it's never happened before.
Silver stackers know at least one thing - their stack is real, whatever dollar number gets pinned onto it by the manipulators.
I knew it would happen.
Well, that depends on the form and appearance of "the silver", doesn't it?
Fancy high grade silver with fancy design and fancy packaging brings high premiums.
Old, rare, historic, and "cool looking" silver brings premium, high Quality premiums.
Boring, plain, common silver brings low, boring premiums
If it's ugly, bulky, weird alloy stuff, it goes for negative premium, i.e under spot, to get it sold.
Scroll up, the issue is high premiums for bullion, and that issue works itself out in the physical market in terms of premiums and the buy-sell spread. There are no low, boring premiums right now unless you can actually get Comex to deliver, and we all know how often that happens.
I knew it would happen.
Aren't you the one who said the cure for high prices is high prices?
Sounds like you are complaining that price discovery in the physical silver market is behaving like a free market where supply and demand, and nothing else, determine price equilibrium.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Personally I think the question is a valid one. It’s like the two gas stations a cross the street from one another. When the gas prices go down they watch each other’s billboards. Eventually one will drop the price a few cents then the other had to follow suit to keep the cars from going across the street. If one of the big players just lowered their premiums slightly the others would have to and real price discovery would happen.
Right now I wouldn’t call it manipulation. But I know several dealers who set up at shows to sell bullion that are selling for less than the online dealers and aren’t selling out every show. So retail buyers aren’t all thinking that the online prices are the true price.
My Ebay Store
Right now I wouldn’t call it manipulation. But I know several dealers who set up at shows to sell bullion that are selling for less than the online dealers and aren’t selling out every show. So retail buyers aren’t all thinking that the online prices are the true price.
When there's a paper price that is significantly less than what bullion dealers are asking, it's only logical to think that there might be a better price somewhere, thus delaying a purchasing decision.
So, is it the bullion dealers who are not willing to take a bath on replacement costs, or is it the paper pushers who are manipulating the market with spoofing, HFT front running and naked shorting (and no or very minor legal consequences) because they have very little inventory left?
As Jim Sinclair says, it's about the management of perception. There's seldom been a market that is as opaque as the precious metals markets, so perceptions can be managed as long as demand can be shunted away from actual delivery.
I knew it would happen.
Well, that depends on how much precious time and effort it takes to effect the transactions. At those profit levels, probably neither.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
So they delay and delay and delay and next thing you know a decade has gone by.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Fixed it for ya. One might also ask "Why?" lol
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
plenty of 1,000 ounce bars.
perhaps the 1 ounce silver discs prices do not reflect the reality of silver prices