Metals the Fix is in !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HiBucky
Posts: 592 ✭✭✭
So your Solar Manufacturers are complaining that the cost of silver is to high. Since the government is backing most all manufactures why not help the manufacturers of Solar Panels. The government fines one investment firm for price fixing of the metals market as a warning but now it is not in the best interest of the government.. So with a wink, wink and a nod, nod 8 more firms get on track to fix pricing of silver and gold and your government looks the other way. So if the price can be driven into the ground it works for the solar and government combine they both win ... So I say this ...SCREW THEM .. Keep Buying and stick it to them where the sun don't shine. So silver may go to $12.00 but it will cost you $40.00 to get an ounce. So much for price fixing... They want to screw us.. Don't let them ..... Buy Buy Buy and keep the vig HIGH
Comments
Who did they fine and what was charged?
$40 for an ASE, but you can get 1,000 ounce bars for less than $1 over
JPMorgan fined $1.26 billion for manipulating precious metals ...https://www.straitstimes.com › business › banking › jp...
Sep 30, 2020 — JPMorgan fined $1.26 billion for manipulating precious metals, ... US authorities' claims of market manipulation involving two of the bank's ... charged for allegedly rigging the price of gold and silver futures from 2008 to 2016.
That’s just illegal spoofing.
It doesn’t fix prices.
I Know ,,, They only rigged the metals market for 9 years .... No Big Deal ..
According to CNBC:
"The goal of spoofing is to move market prices in a way that financially benefits the trader’s preexisting positions in the market."
The sole purpose of spoofing is to fix prices. That is why it is illegal.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
‘‘(C) is, is of the character of, or is commonly known
to the trade as, ‘spoofing’ (bidding or offering with the
intent to cancel the bid or offer before execution).
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/PLAW-111publ203/pdf/PLAW-111publ203.pdf
and here is someone implementing the spoofing strategy:
They used a "computer algorithm that was designed to unlawfully place and quickly cancel orders in exchange-traded futures contracts." They placed a "relatively small order to sell futures that they did want to execute, which they quickly followed with several large buy orders at successively higher prices that they intended to cancel. By placing the large buy orders, Mr. Coscia and Panther sought to give the market the impression that there was significant buying interest, which suggested that prices would soon rise, raising the likelihood that other market participants would buy from the small order Coscia and Panther were then offering to sell."[1]
Britain's FCA is also fining Coscia and his firm approximately $900,000 for "taking advantage of the price movements generated by his layering strategy" relating to his market abuse activities on the ICE Futures Europe exchange. They earned US$279,920 in profits over the six weeks period "at the expense of other market participants – primarily other High Frequency Traders or traders using algorithmic and/or automated systems."[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoofing_(finance)#:~:text=Spoofing may cause prices to,(more sellers than buyers) (
https://www.financemagnates.com/forex/regulation/cftc-fines-algorithmic-trader-2-8-million-for-spoofing-in-the-first-market-abuse-case-brought-by-dodd-frank-act/
whoever wrote that cnbc piece did not explain spoofing correctly. this is possible as they are journalists. journalists also screwed up defining a family office as a hedge fund.
Then take the Department of Justice's word that spoofing is "a scheme to defraud" and is therefore illegal.
"In tens of thousands of instances, traders on the precious metals desk placed orders to buy and sell precious metals futures contracts with the intent to cancel those orders before execution, including in an attempt to profit by deceiving other market participants through injecting false and misleading information concerning the existence of genuine supply and demand for precious metals futures contracts."
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
What are we fixing? The price of gutter metal back to it's worth?
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
:
I never said it wasn't illegal.
In fact, I said it was.
if it doesn't fix prices then why is it illegal? lol
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Short term manipulation distorts prices and market mechanisms (and is therefore illegal), but it does not fix prices. There’s a very big difference.
You guys seem stuck on the word "fix" . The purpose pf spoofing is rather to "sway" prices temporarily.
-- In both directions.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
fix, sway, influence, manipulate, change, etc.: All the same thing when done to illegally control price. Fix is nothing more than the current change in price, whether accomplished legally or illegally.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
actually for spoofing, "fix" is not applicable
fix implies setting something and in the general context of this op and past postings, it does not fix prices to a low level nor a high level.
spoofing is a spoof. it is a bluff.
buy low and sell high.
in my news story:
that's the bluff. that bluff raises prices through bluffed demand.
here's the goal:
others in the market are tricked to buy and raise prices. so to sell higher than normal, they spoofed buy interest.
then what?
then they quickly cancel the buy orders after the fill so they don't execute.
this takes place in a time frame of minutes.
this is not the price fixing you are looking for.
Agree, "fix" is accepted to mean to legally set price through normal and legal price discovery, i.e. the London fix. Gold price is constantly getting a fix on the futures market. However, the "bluffing" or spoofing you describe has been declared as an illegal attempt to "fix" or set the price, thus the DOJ cases and prosecution agreements for spoofing behavior.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Come on guys. Its derry's perception that spoofing is what kept silver from going $150 and drove it down to $15. So let him have his hatrack since perception IS fact.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
There's a reason bullion banks do not mind continually paying over a BILLION in fines for manipulating prices. If their resulting profits in keeping price down were not greater than the BILLIONs in fines then they would not risk getting caught and paying the BILLIONs. In their case crime pays, even when they get caught. LOL
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
The Big boys drive it down to buy in cheaper. Rinse and repeat.
100% Positive BST transactions
And the little guys buy coins and bars for whatever they cost and hold them for decades stacked in their LockBox
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
. . . along with their other insurance policies, hoping they will never need them.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
FIXX=LOWER, Cgts!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
" There's a reason bullion banks do not mind continually paying over a BILLION in fines for manipulating prices. If their resulting profits in keeping price down were not greater than the BILLIONs in fines then they would not risk getting caught and paying the BILLIONs. In their case crime pays, even when they get caught. LOL "
I think there is truth to that. When the fines don't wipe out the profit... then they just become 'cost of doing business'. The method remains a money maker, and since no one goes to prison, why not keep doing it?
https://www.reuters.com/article/jp-morgan-spoofing-penalty-idINKBN26K325
JPMorgan will pay $436.4 million in fines, $311.7 million in restitution and more than $172 million in disgorgement, the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) said on Tuesday, the biggest-ever settlement imposed by the derivatives regulator.
:
Some of the trades were made on JPMorgan’s own account, while on occasions traders manipulated the market to facilitate trades by hedge fund clients, the CFTC said. The bank failed to identify, investigate, and stop the behavior, even after a new surveillance system flagged issues in 2014, the agency said.
Its derry's perception that spoofing is what kept silver from going $150 and drove it down to $15. So let him have his hatrack since perception IS fact.
It's no different than insider trading and is designed to skim money from small investors on a regular basis by frontrunning their own clients (a la Goldman Sachs "muppets") and by using HFT to sniff out traders' positions for the kill shot. Not necessarily to keep silver from going to $150 or to drive it down to $15.
Trade in paper and you become more vulnerable.
I knew it would happen.
the profits were disgorged and losses to other traders were paid as restitution
also of note, the charges also covered the Treasury markets
traders in the futures market only were eligible (not the same thing as "paid") for restitution by documenting losses with a claim. Losses in PM ETFs whose market price is set by the same manipulated futures prices were not eligible for restitution. The big players will be made whole, the smaller players will not.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
So, tell me, what has determined the spot price of PMs over the last decade; actual fundamentals or bullion bank traders that are continually being charged and heavily fined for price manipulation? If fundamentals had determined the price would it be higher, the same, or lower than it has been? LOL
And while we're on topic, where would the DJIA and S&P 500 be without FED intervention?
In financial paper markets, prices are no longer "discovered." They are dictated.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Agreed. But some claimed manipulation a decade ago for the reason silver didnt go to $150.. Then they claim spoofing is the manipulation evidence. I think we all agree that spoofing is bad and that is has had minimal overall impact on long term prices, yet some still look for a place to hang their hat.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
https://www.silverinstitute.org/silver-supply-demand/
Well, here are the fundamentals that I see and it looks like supply has exceeded demand over the last decade. Even you have said that price is determined by supply/demand and often tout that when describing premiums. So do you disagree with these fundamentals?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
First of all, the fundamentals in your chart show that total demand has exceeded total supply by almost a 2:1 margin (8% vs. 15%), disputing your claim that supply has exceeded demand.
A 26% increase in Net Physical investment demand, a 32% increase in Silverware demand, and a 24% increase in Jewelry demand with only an 8% increase in total supply tells me that fundamentals clearly show that physical silver prices would likely be much higher if price discovery was taken from the paper market manipulators and returned to the physical market where supply and demand fundamentals would impact price. For decades only the premium portion of physical silver is at the mercy of true market fundamentals with the base price pegged to the manipulated spot price.
Yes Virginia, there is a controlled price ceiling in the precious metal markets. Recently it has been $28 for silver spot and $1900 for gold spot. As we climb back towards those numbers we will see if the bullion banks have lowered it further or will allow it to temporarily rise higher. The good news is that for the previous few months buyers and sellers of a limited supply of physical silver have giving the finger to the buyers and sellers of unlimited paper silver. Is a divorce in the making?
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
What would happen if the paper silver was called in.. I would say they can't produce the silver. If I owned a 1000 ounce contract and wanted my silver could I call it in and get it? If that is the case I would hope every silver contract owner makes a call today and ask for their physical silver. Drive the price to the moon and bankrupt the strawman...Yes-No-Maybe ?
Does anyone else agree with derryb that demand exceeds supply?
Which will be louder...the silence or the chirping crickets?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Cohodk, you could have explained it.
Chirping crickets or not... many prefer not to jump into the middle of some debates/discussions.
I am more than willing. I waited to see what would happen.
the raw numbers for the %age rise from 2020 to 2021F (I can only assume "F" means "Forecast") is 8% vs 15%
but compare the silver ounces.
the forecast for 2021 supply is 1056.3 million ounces (who can forecast in 5 digits?)
the forecast for 2021 demand is 1033.0 million ounces.
the supply forecasted in 2021 is Higher than demand.
What is higher is the Change from 2020 to the 2021 forecast.
==============================================================
If I supply 5 ounces in 2020, then 10 ounces in 2021, supply doubled.
if WallStreetSilver demands 1 ounce in 2020, then 6 ounces in 2021, demand went up six-fold
in 2021, supply is still 4 ounces more than demand. It's just the change in the numbers that looks impressive, but the %age changes are not indicative of raw ounces of supply or demand.
@MsMorrisine I'm surprised total supply in 2020 was that high compared to 2019. Anybody else?
and what do premiums tell us about supply and demand? LOL
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
More supply than demand. Life in the gutter. Rgds!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
and what does Blitzdude tell us about buying the highs.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Look over on the premiums thread.
ASE premiums are still high, but you can get a 1,000 bar for less than $1 over.
The supply problem is with retail products, and I’d say that is due to manufacturing capacity.
So the next step would be to analyze why is capacity constrained? Is it labor related or demand related?
Just a couple of weeks ago, the Mint indicated that it was a supply issue, not that we have any reason to believe them.
I knew it would happen.
or most of the metal is now in stronger hands. My hands are wrapped tightly around my silver. . . unless the premium gets high enough.
There is no less metal out there. There are less willing sellers at current prices.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
you can buy 1,000 ounce bars at less than $1 over
seems like there are willing sellers out there
that's because there is very little demand (buyers) for 1K bars.
premiums are a very good indicator of specific demand for various products.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
that graph of comex stocks vs. pslv stocks shows a whole lot of 1,000 oz bars out there,
it doesn't seem like a silver shortage, but only a retail product shortage. again, I say it is a manufacturing issue.
Yes...supply still exceeds demand and hence is why silver hasnt gone parabolic. Silver demand may be beginning to increase faster than supply so maybe, just maybe this most important of fundamentals will preclude higher silver prices. Nothing is holding silver back other than lack of interest.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear