Home Precious Metals

Metals the Fix is in !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So your Solar Manufacturers are complaining that the cost of silver is to high. Since the government is backing most all manufactures why not help the manufacturers of Solar Panels. The government fines one investment firm for price fixing of the metals market as a warning but now it is not in the best interest of the government.. So with a wink, wink and a nod, nod 8 more firms get on track to fix pricing of silver and gold and your government looks the other way. So if the price can be driven into the ground it works for the solar and government combine they both win ... So I say this ...SCREW THEM .. Keep Buying and stick it to them where the sun don't shine. So silver may go to $12.00 but it will cost you $40.00 to get an ounce. So much for price fixing... They want to screw us.. Don't let them ..... Buy Buy Buy and keep the vig HIGH

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Comments

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,039 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Who did they fine and what was charged?

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,039 ✭✭✭✭✭

    $40 for an ASE, but you can get 1,000 ounce bars for less than $1 over

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • HiBuckyHiBucky Posts: 579 ✭✭✭

    JPMorgan fined $1.26 billion for manipulating precious metals ...https://www.straitstimes.com › business › banking › jp...
    Sep 30, 2020 — JPMorgan fined $1.26 billion for manipulating precious metals, ... US authorities' claims of market manipulation involving two of the bank's ... charged for allegedly rigging the price of gold and silver futures from 2008 to 2016.

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,039 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That’s just illegal spoofing.

    It doesn’t fix prices.

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • HiBuckyHiBucky Posts: 579 ✭✭✭

    I Know ,,, They only rigged the metals market for 9 years .... No Big Deal ..

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,018 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2021 2:41AM

    @MsMorrisine said:
    That’s just illegal spoofing.

    It doesn’t fix prices.

    According to CNBC:

    "The goal of spoofing is to move market prices in a way that financially benefits the trader’s preexisting positions in the market."

    The sole purpose of spoofing is to fix prices. That is why it is illegal.

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,039 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2021 11:23PM

    ‘‘(C) is, is of the character of, or is commonly known
    to the trade as, ‘spoofing’ (bidding or offering with the
    intent to cancel the bid or offer before execution).
    https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/PLAW-111publ203/pdf/PLAW-111publ203.pdf

    and here is someone implementing the spoofing strategy:

    They used a "computer algorithm that was designed to unlawfully place and quickly cancel orders in exchange-traded futures contracts." They placed a "relatively small order to sell futures that they did want to execute, which they quickly followed with several large buy orders at successively higher prices that they intended to cancel. By placing the large buy orders, Mr. Coscia and Panther sought to give the market the impression that there was significant buying interest, which suggested that prices would soon rise, raising the likelihood that other market participants would buy from the small order Coscia and Panther were then offering to sell."[1]

    Britain's FCA is also fining Coscia and his firm approximately $900,000 for "taking advantage of the price movements generated by his layering strategy" relating to his market abuse activities on the ICE Futures Europe exchange. They earned US$279,920 in profits over the six weeks period "at the expense of other market participants – primarily other High Frequency Traders or traders using algorithmic and/or automated systems."[1]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoofing_(finance)#:~:text=Spoofing may cause prices to,(more sellers than buyers) (

    https://www.financemagnates.com/forex/regulation/cftc-fines-algorithmic-trader-2-8-million-for-spoofing-in-the-first-market-abuse-case-brought-by-dodd-frank-act/

    whoever wrote that cnbc piece did not explain spoofing correctly. this is possible as they are journalists. journalists also screwed up defining a family office as a hedge fund.

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,018 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2021 12:29PM

    @MsMorrisine said:

    whoever wrote that cnbc piece did not explain spoofing correctly. this is possible as they are journalists. journalists also screwed up defining a family office as a hedge fund.

    Then take the Department of Justice's word that spoofing is "a scheme to defraud" and is therefore illegal.

    "In tens of thousands of instances, traders on the precious metals desk placed orders to buy and sell precious metals futures contracts with the intent to cancel those orders before execution, including in an attempt to profit by deceiving other market participants through injecting false and misleading information concerning the existence of genuine supply and demand for precious metals futures contracts."

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • blitzdudeblitzdude Posts: 5,290 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What are we fixing? The price of gutter metal back to it's worth?

    The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,039 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2021 3:27PM

    :

    @MsMorrisine said:
    That’s just illegal spoofing.

    It doesn’t fix prices.

    I never said it wasn't illegal.

    In fact, I said it was.

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,018 ✭✭✭✭✭

    if it doesn't fix prices then why is it illegal? lol

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • HigashiyamaHigashiyama Posts: 2,133 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Short term manipulation distorts prices and market mechanisms (and is therefore illegal), but it does not fix prices. There’s a very big difference.

    Higashiyama
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:
    if it doesn't fix prices then why is it illegal? lol

    You guys seem stuck on the word "fix" . The purpose pf spoofing is rather to "sway" prices temporarily.
    -- In both directions.

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,018 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2021 10:14AM

    fix, sway, influence, manipulate, change, etc.: All the same thing when done to illegally control price. Fix is nothing more than the current change in price, whether accomplished legally or illegally.

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,039 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2021 11:26PM

    actually for spoofing, "fix" is not applicable

    fix implies setting something and in the general context of this op and past postings, it does not fix prices to a low level nor a high level.

    spoofing is a spoof. it is a bluff.

    buy low and sell high.

    in my news story:

    By placing the large buy orders, Mr. Coscia and Panther sought to give the market the impression that there was significant buying interest

    that's the bluff. that bluff raises prices through bluffed demand.

    here's the goal:

    raising the likelihood that other market participants would buy from the small order Coscia and Panther were then offering to sell.

    others in the market are tricked to buy and raise prices. so to sell higher than normal, they spoofed buy interest.

    then what?

    (bidding or offering with the intent to cancel the bid or offer before execution).

    then they quickly cancel the buy orders after the fill so they don't execute.

    this takes place in a time frame of minutes.

    this is not the price fixing you are looking for.

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,018 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2021 4:19AM

    Agree, "fix" is accepted to mean to legally set price through normal and legal price discovery, i.e. the London fix. Gold price is constantly getting a fix on the futures market. However, the "bluffing" or spoofing you describe has been declared as an illegal attempt to "fix" or set the price, thus the DOJ cases and prosecution agreements for spoofing behavior.

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,495 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Come on guys. Its derry's perception that spoofing is what kept silver from going $150 and drove it down to $15. So let him have his hatrack since perception IS fact.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,018 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There's a reason bullion banks do not mind continually paying over a BILLION in fines for manipulating prices. If their resulting profits in keeping price down were not greater than the BILLIONs in fines then they would not risk getting caught and paying the BILLIONs. In their case crime pays, even when they get caught. LOL

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • metalmeistermetalmeister Posts: 4,584 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The Big boys drive it down to buy in cheaper. Rinse and repeat.

    email: [email protected]

    100% Positive BST transactions
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭

    And the little guys buy coins and bars for whatever they cost and hold them for decades stacked in their LockBox

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,018 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Baley said:
    And the little guys buy coins and bars for whatever they cost and hold them for decades stacked in their LockBox

    . . . along with their other insurance policies, hoping they will never need them.

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • blitzdudeblitzdude Posts: 5,290 ✭✭✭✭✭

    FIXX=LOWER, Cgts!

    The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.

  • tincuptincup Posts: 4,721 ✭✭✭✭✭

    " There's a reason bullion banks do not mind continually paying over a BILLION in fines for manipulating prices. If their resulting profits in keeping price down were not greater than the BILLIONs in fines then they would not risk getting caught and paying the BILLIONs. In their case crime pays, even when they get caught. LOL "

    I think there is truth to that. When the fines don't wipe out the profit... then they just become 'cost of doing business'. The method remains a money maker, and since no one goes to prison, why not keep doing it?

    ----- kj
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,039 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 20, 2021 5:42AM

    https://www.reuters.com/article/jp-morgan-spoofing-penalty-idINKBN26K325

    JPMorgan will pay $436.4 million in fines, $311.7 million in restitution and more than $172 million in disgorgement, the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) said on Tuesday, the biggest-ever settlement imposed by the derivatives regulator.

    :

    Some of the trades were made on JPMorgan’s own account, while on occasions traders manipulated the market to facilitate trades by hedge fund clients, the CFTC said. The bank failed to identify, investigate, and stop the behavior, even after a new surveillance system flagged issues in 2014, the agency said.

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,265 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Its derry's perception that spoofing is what kept silver from going $150 and drove it down to $15. So let him have his hatrack since perception IS fact.

    It's no different than insider trading and is designed to skim money from small investors on a regular basis by frontrunning their own clients (a la Goldman Sachs "muppets") and by using HFT to sniff out traders' positions for the kill shot. Not necessarily to keep silver from going to $150 or to drive it down to $15.

    Trade in paper and you become more vulnerable.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,039 ✭✭✭✭✭

    the profits were disgorged and losses to other traders were paid as restitution

    also of note, the charges also covered the Treasury markets

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,018 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 20, 2021 6:48AM

    @MsMorrisine said:
    the profits were disgorged and losses to other traders were paid as restitution

    traders in the futures market only were eligible (not the same thing as "paid") for restitution by documenting losses with a claim. Losses in PM ETFs whose market price is set by the same manipulated futures prices were not eligible for restitution. The big players will be made whole, the smaller players will not.

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,018 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 20, 2021 7:35AM

    @cohodk said:
    Come on guys. Its derry's perception that spoofing is what kept silver from going $150 and drove it down to $15. So let him have his hatrack since perception IS fact.

    So, tell me, what has determined the spot price of PMs over the last decade; actual fundamentals or bullion bank traders that are continually being charged and heavily fined for price manipulation? If fundamentals had determined the price would it be higher, the same, or lower than it has been? LOL

    And while we're on topic, where would the DJIA and S&P 500 be without FED intervention?

    In financial paper markets, prices are no longer "discovered." They are dictated.

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,495 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmski52 said:
    Its derry's perception that spoofing is what kept silver from going $150 and drove it down to $15. So let him have his hatrack since perception IS fact.

    It's no different than insider trading .... Not necessarily to keep silver from going to $150 or to drive it down to $15.

    Agreed. But some claimed manipulation a decade ago for the reason silver didnt go to $150.. Then they claim spoofing is the manipulation evidence. I think we all agree that spoofing is bad and that is has had minimal overall impact on long term prices, yet some still look for a place to hang their hat.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,495 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:

    So, tell me, what has determined the spot price of PMs over the last decade; actual fundamentals or bullion bank traders that are continually being charged and heavily fined for price manipulation? If fundamentals had determined the price would it be higher, the same, or lower than it has been? LOL

    https://www.silverinstitute.org/silver-supply-demand/

    Well, here are the fundamentals that I see and it looks like supply has exceeded demand over the last decade. Even you have said that price is determined by supply/demand and often tout that when describing premiums. So do you disagree with these fundamentals?

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,018 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 20, 2021 6:15PM

    @cohodk said:

    @derryb said:

    So, tell me, what has determined the spot price of PMs over the last decade; actual fundamentals or bullion bank traders that are continually being charged and heavily fined for price manipulation? If fundamentals had determined the price would it be higher, the same, or lower than it has been? LOL

    https://www.silverinstitute.org/silver-supply-demand/

    Well, here are the fundamentals that I see and it looks like supply has exceeded demand over the last decade. Even you have said that price is determined by supply/demand and often tout that when describing premiums. So do you disagree with these fundamentals?

    First of all, the fundamentals in your chart show that total demand has exceeded total supply by almost a 2:1 margin (8% vs. 15%), disputing your claim that supply has exceeded demand.

    A 26% increase in Net Physical investment demand, a 32% increase in Silverware demand, and a 24% increase in Jewelry demand with only an 8% increase in total supply tells me that fundamentals clearly show that physical silver prices would likely be much higher if price discovery was taken from the paper market manipulators and returned to the physical market where supply and demand fundamentals would impact price. For decades only the premium portion of physical silver is at the mercy of true market fundamentals with the base price pegged to the manipulated spot price.

    Yes Virginia, there is a controlled price ceiling in the precious metal markets. Recently it has been $28 for silver spot and $1900 for gold spot. As we climb back towards those numbers we will see if the bullion banks have lowered it further or will allow it to temporarily rise higher. The good news is that for the previous few months buyers and sellers of a limited supply of physical silver have giving the finger to the buyers and sellers of unlimited paper silver. Is a divorce in the making?

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • HiBuckyHiBucky Posts: 579 ✭✭✭

    What would happen if the paper silver was called in.. I would say they can't produce the silver. If I owned a 1000 ounce contract and wanted my silver could I call it in and get it? If that is the case I would hope every silver contract owner makes a call today and ask for their physical silver. Drive the price to the moon and bankrupt the strawman...Yes-No-Maybe ?

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,495 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:

    @cohodk said:

    @derryb said:

    So, tell me, what has determined the spot price of PMs over the last decade; actual fundamentals or bullion bank traders that are continually being charged and heavily fined for price manipulation? If fundamentals had determined the price would it be higher, the same, or lower than it has been? LOL

    https://www.silverinstitute.org/silver-supply-demand/

    Well, here are the fundamentals that I see and it looks like supply has exceeded demand over the last decade. Even you have said that price is determined by supply/demand and often tout that when describing premiums. So do you disagree with these fundamentals?

    First of all, the fundamentals in your chart show that total demand has exceeded total supply by almost a 2:1 margin (8% vs. 15%), disputing your claim that supply has exceeded demand.

    Does anyone else agree with derryb that demand exceeds supply?

    Which will be louder...the silence or the chirping crickets?

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,039 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Cohodk, you could have explained it.

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • tincuptincup Posts: 4,721 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Chirping crickets or not... many prefer not to jump into the middle of some debates/discussions.

    ----- kj
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,039 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I am more than willing. I waited to see what would happen.

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,039 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,039 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 21, 2021 1:42PM

    the raw numbers for the %age rise from 2020 to 2021F (I can only assume "F" means "Forecast") is 8% vs 15%

    but compare the silver ounces.

    the forecast for 2021 supply is 1056.3 million ounces (who can forecast in 5 digits?)
    the forecast for 2021 demand is 1033.0 million ounces.

    the supply forecasted in 2021 is Higher than demand.

    What is higher is the Change from 2020 to the 2021 forecast.

    ==============================================================

    If I supply 5 ounces in 2020, then 10 ounces in 2021, supply doubled.
    if WallStreetSilver demands 1 ounce in 2020, then 6 ounces in 2021, demand went up six-fold

    in 2021, supply is still 4 ounces more than demand. It's just the change in the numbers that looks impressive, but the %age changes are not indicative of raw ounces of supply or demand.

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • meluaufeetmeluaufeet Posts: 746 ✭✭✭

    @MsMorrisine I'm surprised total supply in 2020 was that high compared to 2019. Anybody else?

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,018 ✭✭✭✭✭

    and what do premiums tell us about supply and demand? LOL

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • blitzdudeblitzdude Posts: 5,290 ✭✭✭✭✭

    More supply than demand. Life in the gutter. Rgds!

    The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,018 ✭✭✭✭✭

    and what does Blitzdude tell us about buying the highs.

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,039 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Look over on the premiums thread.

    ASE premiums are still high, but you can get a 1,000 bar for less than $1 over.

    The supply problem is with retail products, and I’d say that is due to manufacturing capacity.

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • taxmadtaxmad Posts: 960 ✭✭✭✭

    @MsMorrisine said:
    Look over on the premiums thread.

    ASE premiums are still high, but you can get a 1,000 bar for less than $1 over.

    The supply problem is with retail products, and I’d say that is due to manufacturing capacity.

    So the next step would be to analyze why is capacity constrained? Is it labor related or demand related?

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,265 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Just a couple of weeks ago, the Mint indicated that it was a supply issue, not that we have any reason to believe them.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,018 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @taxmad said:

    @MsMorrisine said:
    Look over on the premiums thread.

    ASE premiums are still high, but you can get a 1,000 bar for less than $1 over.

    The supply problem is with retail products, and I’d say that is due to manufacturing capacity.

    So the next step would be to analyze why is capacity constrained? Is it labor related or demand related?

    or most of the metal is now in stronger hands. My hands are wrapped tightly around my silver. . . unless the premium gets high enough.

    There is no less metal out there. There are less willing sellers at current prices.

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,039 ✭✭✭✭✭

    you can buy 1,000 ounce bars at less than $1 over

    seems like there are willing sellers out there

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,018 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MsMorrisine said:
    you can buy 1,000 ounce bars at less than $1 over

    that's because there is very little demand (buyers) for 1K bars.

    premiums are a very good indicator of specific demand for various products.

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,039 ✭✭✭✭✭

    that graph of comex stocks vs. pslv stocks shows a whole lot of 1,000 oz bars out there,

    it doesn't seem like a silver shortage, but only a retail product shortage. again, I say it is a manufacturing issue.

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,495 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes...supply still exceeds demand and hence is why silver hasnt gone parabolic. Silver demand may be beginning to increase faster than supply so maybe, just maybe this most important of fundamentals will preclude higher silver prices. Nothing is holding silver back other than lack of interest.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

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