1984 Fleer Clemens PSA 10 $2,000, 1985 Tiffany $15,000,
olb31
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my have the mighty have fallen.
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olb31
Posts: 3,352 ✭✭✭✭✭
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What was the peak?
i'm supposing the tiffany is there. the 1984 was at $3,000. but since 1984 the fleer clemens and the fleer set was the creme de la creme of 1980's cards. apparently they have taken a back seat.
I prefer the Fleer. I am not a Tiffany guy though. Do not get me wrong I would take them all day long, but I always prefer an issue from the previous year.
I think the '84 Fleer is a better-looking card, too.
84 Fleer is easily one of the best sets of the 80s.
fleer card for aesthetics. topps card for the lineage. or both when possible.
but still. $15k for roger?
Some of these prices for certain players or some cards in general really, really make me scratch my head. Some of this stuff just doesn’t seem legit when applied with logic.
"I'd walk through Hell in a gasoline suit to play baseball"
Charlie Hustle
Roger 354 wins , 4,185 strikeouts.
I collect hall of fame rookie cards, https://www.instagram.com/stwainfan/
The peak for each was about 3k for fleer update. there was a sale of the tiffany in March for 22.6k
we also need to see that the market has generally softened in the last month or more.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
i would say that Clemens was the greatest pitcher since integration. possibly the greatest of all time
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
1) Ryan
2) Clemens
3) Maddux
4) Randy
5) seaver
in the last 50.
YOU NAILED IT
How can you not be a Tiffany guy?
Why if I had been just a few years older at the time (7) I bet I would've had a major crush on her back in that day 
She's still got it!
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
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I would put Carlton at #4. What he did with 1972 Phillies makes up for being one behind Randy’s five CYAs.
Kiss me twice.....let's party.
MArcus Stroman thinks he is #1...
That's funny. Ryan was sexy, but not terribly effective. He's not in the top 10, and it's not particularly close.
That's for sure
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
773 starts - 2nd most to cy young
222 complete games
324 wins - #5 since ww2
5714 K's #1
7 no-hitters #1
3.19 era - half of his career in the american league
1.69 era in 1981
5 times over 300 k's #1
most k's in one season
war #20 all-time
i can buy putting carlton over randy or seaver in the top 5.
I think we'll have to agree that any definition of "last 50" that includes Ryan and Seaver (and Carlton?) must also include Jenkins, Niekro, Blyleven (and Carlton?). Whether or not we can include Perry, putting Ryan in the top ten means that we're saying he's better than each of Schilling, Glavine, and Mussina. To me it's clear that each of those were better than he was. Also, in a few years each of Grienke, Verlander, and Kershaw will be obviously better than Ryan was, and a very strong case could be made that they already are.
The argument for Ryan provided above makes my case for me. Ryan was a sexy pitcher. 7 no hitters is sexy. Strikeouts are sexy. But, seven ho hitters is ultimately seven wins. Strikeouts are undoubtedly a good thing, but a lot depends on what happens when batters aren't being struck out. To give an obvious example, a pitcher who throws a perfect game with no strikeouts has done a better job than one who gets twenty strikeouts and allows ten home runs.
Finally, what is not said: Ryan is also first all time in walks, third in losses. Regardless of what one thinks of the value of WAR, using the fact that Ryan is 20th all time is a strange argument for him being best of the last 50 while eight of the players above him on that list are in the "last 50" as defined above.
I mean, are we talking who had the best career or who do you want out there to win one game when they're at their peak? Because I'll take 1999-2000 Pedro over any of those guys at any of their peaks.
Arthur
Martinez is so obviously superior to Ryan I didn't see a need to mention him above. It's a tough choice between him and Clemens at the peak. For a one-year peak, Clemens 1997 and Martinez 2000 are very close. I may be missing a season here by a less obvious contender. Two-year peak, easily Martinez 1999-2000. Three-year, Martinez 1998-2000 beats out Clemens 1996-1998. The only reason he is lower in this top 10 is because he was just a bad pitcher his last four years. Even counting those, he had the shortest career of any of the (retired) pitchers under consideration.
That 84 Clemens was one of the best cards to have when I was collecting in the late 80's to early 90's. I didn't know anyone who personally had (or could afford) that card. With that said and price being out the window regarding 84 Fleer or 85 Tiffany, I would rather have the '84 myself. I wouldn't say that it has fallen in price. I mean just a few years ago, it was about $400-450. So even at 2K, that's still a win. Now for those who bought cards earlier this year as everything was skyrocketing, then yeah, you lost money. But otherwise, it's a solid buy still - even at 2K. He was what Kershaw and Scherzer are today.
Ryan is the Favre of the baseball world. Showy but ultimately not the most effective.
HOF SIGNED FOOTBALL RCS
clemens is somewhat overlooked. I think it is fairly clear that for career value, Rocket is the greatest post integration pitcher. the only ones who could really have an argument are seaver, Maddux and R. Johnson. but they all fall short.
this is how crazy great clemens was. If you take both Koufax and Pedros careers and put them together, you basically have Clemens career. look at war, innings, most countables, and most black ink, awards, it is remarkable.
Clemens was the ace of the post 1947 years.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
And Clemens was in a Pee Wee Herman movie, which right there makes him very elite !
...wait.. it was Kingpin..
Don't forget about Bob Gibson guys. That 1968 season was one of the greatest pitching years ever.
I collect hall of fame rookie cards, https://www.instagram.com/stwainfan/
jim abbott did it w one hand.
Bob doesn't make the 50 year cut off but Doc does.
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I'm glad you brought Gibson up. The "top 5" argument above focused on the "last 50", which leaves Gibson and probably Perry out. Gibson probably belongs in the top five post integration. It may depend on how you consider Spahn. In any event, Gibson was no doubt great in 1968, and in fact from 1968-1970, but it was so much easier to hit (against anyone) in the AL from 1996-2000 than in the NL from 1968-1970 that Gibson's performance just isn't as impressive.
I am 80/90s guy so:
Clemens
Maddux
Martinez
Seaver
Randy
Carlton
Personally I think Ryan is overrated as player..but he is definitely much loved by the collectors community.
Pedro was better than Randy -- didn't have the longevity -- but he outpitched him in their prime years
Topps White Out (silver) letters Alex Gordon
80 Topps Greg Pryor “No Name"
90 ProSet Dexter Manley error
90 Topps Jeff King Yellow back
1958 Topps Pancho Herrera (no“a”)
81 Topps Art Howe (black smear above hat)
91 D A. Hawkins BC-12 “Pitcher”
Pedro in 2000 was probably the best single pitching season of all time. He just didn't have the long career the other guys did. his ERA+ was almost 300 that year. an all-time record.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I put Maddux at #1, despite his overall postseason mediocrity.
What he did in the steroid era was absolutely remarkable. No one could touch him (except Tony Gwynn).His 10-12 year run in the 90's to early 2000's may have been the best ever, considering the guys he was pitching to were juiced up
Maddux WAR 104.6 4 ERA titles 5 ERA + titles 132 career ERA + 35 shutouts
R. Johnson WAR 103.5 4 ERA titles 6 ERA + titles 135 ERA+ 37 Shutouts
Clemens WAR 138.4 7 ERA titles 8 ERA + titles 143 ERA+ 46 Shutouts
seems pretty clear
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
All of that presupposes that Clemens' numbers are 100% legitimate, something that is, let's just say...questionable.
well, there is no more evidence that clemens used than there is that Johnson or maddux or gwynn used. there was a disgruntled former employee who had an agenda that Mitchell found and interviewed. there is no hard evidence, no failed test and no admission from clemens. there is a false narrative that was propagated by espn that clemens was a PED user and that narrative has been generalized, but it is not accurate.
are you so sure that say randy johnsons numbers are 100% legitimate? the same can be said of nolan ryan, whose pitching coach was a well-known proponent of steroids.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Didn't Pettitte put out some damning info on Clemens? I guess the case against him is circumstantial. However, I get suspicious of players of that era who had an extended lull followed by a massive resurgence to higher levels than before. McGwire fits this bill. Clemens had a 5 year period of very mediocre performance right in the age range when most pitchers start to decline. Then he put up monster numbers into his early 40s. Don't get me wrong, I hope for my own selfish interests he gets into the hall so the cards I have jump in value. I don't think he'll make it though. At least not before going on the veteran's committee ballot.
Clemens also has the Mindy McCready stuff. Believe what you will but a lot adds up to great pitcher but bad guy. This bothers me way more than potential PED use.
Regardless of what substances Clemens used or didn't use, it is far past time for Clemens, Bonds, and Rodriguez to be inducted. We can assume that they used substances that are, at least now, prohibited. We don't know, and can never know, exactly how prevalent PED use was during their careers, but we can know that there are players far worse than any of those who were just as suspicious enshrined. Should the BBWAA see fit to elect David Ortiz, who IMO wouldn't be close to the HoF even without a sniff of PEDs, there can't possibly be a reason to leave anyone out due to them.
I'm not going to go over this all line by line. I just wanted to raise a fairly salient point that nobody had up until then.
it all boils down to the deal that a lie, when told enough becomes the truth.
MacNamee was a terrible witness and a liar, provably so. He was pressured and coerced by both Mitchell and the feds to bear false witness. this lie was then propagated by ESPN and Lester Munson in an effort to boost ratings.
so many people never did the research themselves and have lumped Clemens in with the PED crowd.
it is really unfortunate because now Clemens often doesn't get the credit he deserves as the greatest post-integration pitcher
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Rodriguez has yet to appear on the ballot.
How much did it sale for is one of the funniest and most ignorant things I've ever heard.
How was Nolan Ryan able to throw no hitters after 40?
I collect hall of fame rookie cards, https://www.instagram.com/stwainfan/
That's not the question. Anyone can have a good game and there are enough bad pitchers who have thrown no hitters. The question is "How did he have his third and fourth best seasons at age 40 and 44?"