Lesher Dollars that were actually used!

Zoins

With so many Lesher Dollars in MS / uncirculated condition, it's nice to see one with some wear!

Seems like a strong price for a VG10, but I don't know much about this specific issue.

Photo by: Numismatically Yours, Yellow Springs, OH

PerryHall

It was more likely wear from use as a pocket piece rather than wear from circulation.

Zoins

@PerryHall said:
It was more likely wear from use as a pocket piece rather than wear from circulation.

Don't burst my bubble. It's too early in the morning for that!

Zoins

This is a AG3, POP 1/8!

DCW

The one you posted from last year was the very first type, and the only Lesher Dollar not to feature the mining scene.
The Geo Mullen recently posted is very rare and even in AG should command 4 figures. Though I've seen a handful for sale over the last two years. Actually, I've never seen so many Leshers available in my life. Either the shine is wearing off, or more likely, people are just asking moon money and they're staying in dealers inventories.

dcarr

A fellow from one of my local coin clubs has a Bumstead Lesher Dollar that was given to his father by Mr. Lesher himself.
It is a VF-XF grade from pocket wear, but I don't think it ever actually "circulated".

edwardjulio

Purchased this one and thought it may have circulated. NGC VF-20, HK-789:

Maywood

From So-Called Dollars:
---Lesher did sell the first 100 medals himself at their $1.25 face value. He intended to issue and redeem them himself, but when this proved impractical, he arranged with A. B. Bumstead, a local grocer, to use the Referendums in his store and to redeem them in merchandise or cash. Bumstead sold 700 specimens and only three pieces were returned for redemption. It is believed that about 1,000 pieces (including both varieties) of the Bumstead pieces were made.

Based on the above, I'd say no, they didn't circulate. Most were bought for their novelty value and Lesher's scheme or dream of circulating his mined silver by circumventing the Government failed.

CaptHenway

Yeah, I have to agree that any well-worn piece was probably a pocket piece.

Zoins

@Maywood said:
From So-Called Dollars:
---Lesher did sell the first 100 medals himself at their $1.25 face value. He intended to issue and redeem them himself, but when this proved impractical, he arranged with A. B. Bumstead, a local grocer, to use the Referendums in his store and to redeem them in merchandise or cash. Bumstead sold 700 specimens and only three pieces were returned for redemption. It is believed that about 1,000 pieces (including both varieties) of the Bumstead pieces were made.

Based on the above, I'd say no, they didn't circulate. Most were bought for their novelty value and Lesher's scheme or dream of circulating his mined silver by circumventing the Government failed.

I wonder what is the primary source for that info.

There's a lot of great info in Hibler and Kappen, but I wish the sources were cited more.

Weiss

@edwardjulio said:
Purchased this one and thought it may have circulated. NGC VF-20, HK-789:

A stunner in its own right! What a great coin.

Maywood

@Zoins said: There's a lot of great info in Hibler and Kappen, but I wish the sources were cited more.

Sources would be helpful but aren't really necessary unless you'd like to question the entire work. In other words, it isn't logical to accept the bulk of the catalogue without question and doubt what doesn't fit our personal narrative. The same thing happens at this forum every time Breen's Encyclopedia is mentioned(OOPS, I mentioned it!!). Back to the Bumstead Lesher's, I suppose they kept records of such things and Hibler-Kappen were diligent researchers. The numbers are no different than the mintages given for everything, or do you doubt them, too??

In a nutshell, they got much more right than wrong, so I see no reason to doubt the above passage.

Zoins

@Zoins said:
This is a AG3, POP 1/8!

I was following this coin and it just sold yesterday! Congrats to the new owner and Centurial Collectibles!

Here are the photos from Centurial for posterity which includes the collector's envelope. I love the collector envelope saying it was purchased from ANA sale in 1977 and the note "VERY SCARCE - NOT FOR SALE". Does anyone know the provenance for this and may have wrote this?

pcgscacgold

Pretty cool stuff, but so darn expensive (from the ones I have seen for sale).

Zoins

@pcgscacgold said:
Pretty cool stuff, but so darn expensive (from the ones I have seen for sale).

Agreed. People are willing to pay strong prices for these. I only have one right now. I bid on another a while back but lost.

pcgscacgold

I wish Dan Carr would start issuing them again.

Maywood

If I understand the process correctly, Lesher sold these for $1.25, but what was the redemption value?? Was it $1, whatever the prevailing price of Silver might be, or was it $1.25?? Once redeemed, these would then need to be sold for $1.25 to start things all over again. I can see no incentive for people during that time wanting to engage in commerce with these since it almost amounts to giving money away. On the other hand, they probably made a neat souvenir, but $1.25 wasn't something people could live without back then, it bought a lot.

Up to the current day, if anyone doubts the "popularity" of these then I suggest they visit the Heritage archives. Unless I interpret things wrongly, Lesher Dollars are popular to buy and popular to sell but I don't get the impression that they are popular to own, due mainly to the fact that they are forever offered for sale at that site. They are one of several scarce/rare issues from the Hibler-Kappen catalogue which make up a large number of SC$'s there, issues that are supposed to be scarce but can always be found.

LukeMarshall

Its an eight sided piece, so I think it would look nicer with a four prong holder instead of the three prongs. Is this something that can be requested were I to send one to our hosts?

edwardjulio

@Weiss
Thanks. Sometimes wonder if my "good eye" is working. I think it was on this one.

DCW

Why do people feel the need to wear rubber gloves when handling a slabbed coin? 😆

Zoins

@DCW said:
Why do people feel the need to wear rubber gloves when handling a slabbed coin? 😆

I'm guessing some people might pay more for it because they think the dealer is protecting the coin and slab more?

Don't want coins smelling like mustard!

Zoins

@Maywood said:
Up to the current day, if anyone doubts the "popularity" of these then I suggest they visit the Heritage archives. Unless I interpret things wrongly, Lesher Dollars are popular to buy and popular to sell but I don't get the impression that they are popular to own, due mainly to the fact that they are forever offered for sale at that site. They are one of several scarce/rare issues from the Hibler-Kappen catalogue which make up a large number of SC$'s there, issues that are supposed to be scarce but can always be found.

There are a few people on the forums that collect them, but it seems you aren't one of them. It's okay if you don't find them interesting to collect, but why do you feel a need to post similar material in every Lesher thread? Do you have a beef with Leshers?

But you are correct in that "scarce" can result in "can always be found" for expensive, thinly traded items. For a lot of exonumia to not be on the market, they need to be unique or at least fairly "rare". The same is true for other thinly traded items like patterns, and even some errors. I have the feeling that I can always find a scarce error, like some types of off centers and missing clad layers.

It's also important to look for specific Lesher / Zerbe types, and not just all of them together. Some are more rare than others.

Zoins

@dcarr said:
A fellow from one of my local coin clubs has a Bumstead Lesher Dollar that was given to his father by Mr. Lesher himself.
It is a VF-XF grade from pocket wear, but I don't think it ever actually "circulated".

If it was received from Joseph, I agree it likely didn't circulate.

Any know if Mr. Lesher went by Joseph, Joe, or something else?

Maywood

If it wasn't for Zerbe cataloguing these medals there would be a lessened interest in them. I've always wondered what his angle was and how he presumed he could profit from them?? Farran Zerbe never really did anything numismatically that wasn't supposed to help his bottom line. Why do Lesher Dollars get so much more attention than Bryan Dollars or the Pedley-Ryan issues?? Bryan Dollars are actually interesting to me because of their connection to what was happening politically at the time, and they got a boost because Bryan couldn't accept defeat and he kept up the feud with Thomas Elder. Those issues had a stark, clear message right on the medal. Lesher "Dollars" by contrast were apparently intended to help commerce as a de facto "coin" and most of them have the word "souvenir" on them. They were also an advertising token which means they were three, three, three things in one. Apparently the buyers of them took the souvenir angle to heart and kept them for posterity.

Yeah, you might say I don't find them interesting to collect. Is it OK if I voice that opinion here and maybe point out some de factos mixed in with some opinion?? Or should I clear that with someone??

Let's not argue, let's discuss and debate. I wish I had one of these I could show you, but I don't as you have probably surmised. There are plenty of images available on the internet so that I think anyone could do a census of a majority of extant medals. If not seen yet then be patient, one of these souvenirs will show up in time because it looks to me like collectors only hold them short term.

braddick

@DCW said:
Why do people feel the need to wear rubber gloves when handling a slabbed coin? 😆

He may well be handling many coins- some slabbed and some raw. The gloves protect handling the raw coins and are not taken off when displaying the slabs. Purely my speculation.
I do wish cloth gloves were a thing again, though. Although seeing surgical gloves is better than seeing someone's grody hands and fingernails.

dcarr

@Maywood said:
If it wasn't for Zerbe cataloguing these medals there would be a lessened interest in them. I've always wondered what his angle was and how he presumed he could profit from them?? Farran Zerbe never really did anything numismatically that wasn't supposed to help his bottom line. Why do Lesher Dollars get so much more attention than Bryan Dollars or the Pedley-Ryan issues?? Bryan Dollars are actually interesting to me because of their connection to what was happening politically at the time, and they got a boost because Bryan couldn't accept defeat and he kept up the feud with Thomas Elder. Those issues had a stark, clear message right on the medal. Lesher "Dollars" by contrast were apparently intended to help commerce as a de facto "coin" and most of them have the word "souvenir" on them. They were also an advertising token which means they were three, three, three things in one. Apparently the buyers of them took the souvenir angle to heart and kept them for posterity.

Yeah, you might say I don't find them interesting to collect. Is it OK if I voice that opinion here and maybe point out some de factos mixed in with some opinion?? Or should I clear that with someone??

Let's not argue, let's discuss and debate. I wish I had one of these I could show you, but I don't as you have probably surmised. There are plenty of images available on the internet so that I think anyone could do a census of a majority of extant medals. If not seen yet then be patient, one of these souvenirs will show up in time because it looks to me like collectors only hold them short term.

I can't really find anything in your post that I agree with.

"If it wasn't for Zerbe cataloguing these medals there would be a lessened interest in them."

That is true for ANY numismatic item. I could argue that if a variety like 3-legged Bison Nickels were not listed in price guides, few people would care about them. So applying that logic only to Lesher Dollars and not to anything else makes no sense to me.

"Bryan Dollars are actually interesting to me because of their connection to what was happening politically at the time"

Maybe you didn't realize it, but Lesher tokens are also "Bryan" items in that they promote the bi-metallic standard which is the main subject of Bryan money. One purpose for the Lesher Dollars was to support the use of silver as money. It says so right on them. The "Souvenir" notation on them was probably due, in part, to the US Secret Service not liking any privately-minted items that purport to be legal currency.

"one of these souvenirs will show up in time because it looks to me like collectors only hold them short term."

Dealers buy and sell them. Usually, a dealer will try and "flip" an item quickly, if they can. That applies to Lesher Dollars as well as any numismatic item. Collectors tend to hold things longer. The notion that nobody holds on to them for any length of time is completely wrong. I sold a duplicate once. But I have a few of them that I have owned for several years and I have no plans to offer them for sale.

DCW

@Maywood said:
If it wasn't for Zerbe cataloguing these medals there would be a lessened interest in them...Why do Lesher Dollars get so much more attention than Bryan Dollars or the Pedley-Ryan issues??

I tend to think Lesher Dollars enjoy such interest because of the awesome pictorial of the mining scene on the obverse. Pedley-Ryan discs are rather plain.

Maywood

@dcarr said: I can't really find anything in your post that I agree with.

This, despite the fact that you then tend to agree with some of what I posted and offer speculation as specious as what I'm accused of. That's OK, though, and helps lead to interesting discourse and discovery. I will stop at that.

pcgscacgold

@dcarr
I would like to see you mint some more Lesher Dollars. I was not here in 2014, 2015 or 2017 and have never seen one for sale. They must be in really strong hands.

Zoins

@Maywood said:
Let's not argue, let's discuss and debate.

Discussion and debate are fine, but is it that when you post the same thing multiple times

Just post something different to move the conversation along

As for demand, this one is not sitting on any store shelf!

Zoins

@pcgscacgold said:
@dcarr
I would like to see you mint some more Lesher Dollars. I was not here in 2014, 2015 or 2017 and have never seen one for sale. They must be in really strong hands.

Let me introduce you to a site called eBay...

There always tends to be a few and there are some now.

Someone has a lot at $99. I bought a bunch but there are still more!

ZoidMeister

@pcgscacgold said:
@dcarr
I would like to see you mint some more Lesher Dollars. I was not here in 2014, 2015 or 2017 and have never seen one for sale. They must be in really strong hands.

.

One needs to be diligent in seeking them out. Like yourself, I only became acquainted with Dan's work over the past two years. I've been able to acquire a couple of his Lesher related octagon pieces.

.

.

.

.

There are however, other ANA and City of Victor issued Lesher commemorative pieces that come to market quite often.

The ANA Lesher House Restoration fund raising pieces seem to come available most often. Only 1,000 were struck in 1985.

I find these to be most true to Leshers original designs.

.

.

.

.

Then the City of Victor fund raising souvenirs also come to market quite often.

Minted in 1992, also in quantities of 1,000 from my research.

Both of these "scratch my itch" of owning a Lesher, especially on a Zoid budget.

.

.

.

.

I really do like my octagons and Colorado silver . . . . . .

.

.

.

.
Z

DCW

@Zoins said:

@Maywood said:
Let's not argue, let's discuss and debate.

Discussion and debate are fine, but is it that when you post the same thing multiple times

Just post something different to move the conversation along

As for demand, this one is not sitting on any store shelf!

Is that one yours, John? I've seen it for a sale a few times over the years and always wonder if it looks the vibrant in hand. My guess is no.

Zoins

@DCW said:

@Zoins said:

@Maywood said:
Let's not argue, let's discuss and debate.

Discussion and debate are fine, but is it that when you post the same thing multiple times

Just post something different to move the conversation along

As for demand, this one is not sitting on any store shelf!

Is that one yours, John? I've seen it for a sale a few times over the years and always wonder if it looks the vibrant in hand. My guess is no.

I intended it to be mine and put a strong bid the last time it came up, but alas someone wanted it more than me!

Seems like neither of us have seen it in hand yet. Hopefully we will one day! I will say at the price it sold, I think someone is expecting it to be vibrant.

Definitely strong demand for some Lesher Dollars out there!

Zoins

@dcarr said:

@Maywood said:
If it wasn't for Zerbe cataloguing these medals there would be a lessened interest in them. I've always wondered what his angle was and how he presumed he could profit from them?? Farran Zerbe never really did anything numismatically that wasn't supposed to help his bottom line. Why do Lesher Dollars get so much more attention than Bryan Dollars or the Pedley-Ryan issues?? Bryan Dollars are actually interesting to me because of their connection to what was happening politically at the time, and they got a boost because Bryan couldn't accept defeat and he kept up the feud with Thomas Elder. Those issues had a stark, clear message right on the medal. Lesher "Dollars" by contrast were apparently intended to help commerce as a de facto "coin" and most of them have the word "souvenir" on them. They were also an advertising token which means they were three, three, three things in one. Apparently the buyers of them took the souvenir angle to heart and kept them for posterity.

Yeah, you might say I don't find them interesting to collect. Is it OK if I voice that opinion here and maybe point out some de factos mixed in with some opinion?? Or should I clear that with someone??

Let's not argue, let's discuss and debate. I wish I had one of these I could show you, but I don't as you have probably surmised. There are plenty of images available on the internet so that I think anyone could do a census of a majority of extant medals. If not seen yet then be patient, one of these souvenirs will show up in time because it looks to me like collectors only hold them short term.

I can't really find anything in your post that I agree with.

"If it wasn't for Zerbe cataloguing these medals there would be a lessened interest in them."

That is true for ANY numismatic item. I could argue that if a variety like 3-legged Bison Nickels were not listed in price guides, few people would care about them. So applying that logic only to Lesher Dollars and not to anything else makes no sense to me.

Agree. Cataloging is vital to interest. Just look at TPG pop and census reports!

"Bryan Dollars are actually interesting to me because of their connection to what was happening politically at the time"

Maybe you didn't realize it, but Lesher tokens are also "Bryan" items in that they promote the bi-metallic standard which is the main subject of Bryan money. One purpose for the Lesher Dollars was to support the use of silver as money. It says so right on them. The "Souvenir" notation on them was probably due, in part, to the US Secret Service not liking any privately-minted items that purport to be legal currency.

Agree. Bryan money is associated with the time period during the 1896 and 1900 elections so this is exactly within the same time frame to be connected to "what was happening politically at the time."

"one of these souvenirs will show up in time because it looks to me like collectors only hold them short term."

Dealers buy and sell them. Usually, a dealer will try and "flip" an item quickly, if they can. That applies to Lesher Dollars as well as any numismatic item. Collectors tend to hold things longer. The notion that nobody holds on to them for any length of time is completely wrong. I sold a duplicate once. But I have a few of them that I have owned for several years and I have no plans to offer them for sale.

I agree. I have a Lesher dollar where the collector before likely had it for 20 years.

Zoins

@DCW said:

@Maywood said:
If it wasn't for Zerbe cataloguing these medals there would be a lessened interest in them...Why do Lesher Dollars get so much more attention than Bryan Dollars or the Pedley-Ryan issues??

I tend to think Lesher Dollars enjoy such interest because of the awesome pictorial of the mining scene on the obverse. Pedley-Ryan discs are rather plain.

Agree. They look a lot more exciting than even Bryan money as well.

Here are a Bryan and Lesher from CoinFacts to compare.

But, visual design aside, they are both about promoting the use of silver in the same time period.

DCW

@Zoins said:

Seems like neither of us have seen it in hand yet. Hopefully we will one day! I will say at the price it sold, I think someone is expecting it to be vibrant.

I have seen a photo of it in the slab, and it looked steel gray. I think the True view may be exaggerating the natural look on this Lesher. I even inquired with one of the sellers on the real appearance and he told me you really have to get it at just the right angle under a strong light to get anywhere near that look in the True View.

Zoins

@Zoins said:

BTW, this one has a PCGS Price Guide price of $22,000 and is the #1 ranked numisemp COLORADO NATIVE Registry Set. I'm guessing this would have some good demand outside of this set as well, due to the condition and rarity.

numisemp said:
H.O. Mann-Dr. Phillip Whitely-William C. Henderson-Chris Marchase-Colorado Native Finest of 9 Known

Zoins

@DCW said:

@Zoins said:

Seems like neither of us have seen it in hand yet. Hopefully we will one day! I will say at the price it sold, I think someone is expecting it to be vibrant.

I have seen a photo of it in the slab, and it looked steel gray. I think the True view may be exaggerating the natural look on this Lesher. I even inquired with one of the sellers on the real appearance and he told me you really have to get it at just the right angle under a strong light to get anywhere near that look in the True View.

Could well be. I tend to be okay with it as long as I can see the look. I have to rotate some of QDB-??? Civil War Tokens too

Maywood

Below is a link to a Heritage auction from 1999 which bolsters the good Captains assertion that these worn medals most probably were carried as pocket pieces. The description by Heritage states the same and the "look" of the medal gives that strong impression. This one might be the Mother of all Lesher pocket pieces.

https://coins.ha.com/itm/so-called-dollars/tokens-and-medals/1933-pedley-ryan-dollar-vf-30-hk-825-evenly-worn-with-no-obvious-impairments-a-bit-of-light-golden-color-accents-the-otherwis/a/213-5840.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

Zoins

@Maywood said:
Below is a link to a Heritage auction from 1999 which bolsters the good Captains assertion that these worn medals most probably were carried as pocket pieces. The description by Heritage states the same and the "look" of the medal gives that strong impression. This one might be the Mother of all Lesher pocket pieces.

https://coins.ha.com/itm/so-called-dollars/tokens-and-medals/1933-pedley-ryan-dollar-vf-30-hk-825-evenly-worn-with-no-obvious-impairments-a-bit-of-light-golden-color-accents-the-otherwis/a/213-5840.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

Great find @Maywood!

That Slusher 121 is amazing! It has got to be the winner for the most worn Lusher ever!

It's great that the number can still be seen. And it's not in the Adna Wilde Lesher Census!

It also sold way back in 1999. Has this ever come up for sale again? Does anyone know where this is now?

The lowest graded HK-792 PCGS lists in the census is a G6, and NGC's lowest are two VGs. This is way lower than those and could still be uncertified. What an amazing piece.

Here are the closeups.

Zoins

@Zoins said:

@DCW said:

@Zoins said:

Seems like neither of us have seen it in hand yet. Hopefully we will one day! I will say at the price it sold, I think someone is expecting it to be vibrant.

I have seen a photo of it in the slab, and it looked steel gray. I think the True view may be exaggerating the natural look on this Lesher. I even inquired with one of the sellers on the real appearance and he told me you really have to get it at just the right angle under a strong light to get anywhere near that look in the True View.

Could well be. I tend to be okay with it as long as I can see the look.

Wow, I just checked out the realized prices on this and it's going up significantly.

Cert: https://www.pcgs.com/cert/37828223

Zoins

@DCW said:
The one you posted from last year was the very first type, and the only Lesher Dollar not to feature the mining scene.
The Geo Mullen recently posted is very rare and even in AG should command 4 figures. Though I've seen a handful for sale over the last two years. Actually, I've never seen so many Leshers available in my life. Either the shine is wearing off, or more likely, people are just asking moon money and they're staying in dealers inventories.

@Zoins said:

@Zoins said:
This is a AG3, POP 1/8!

I was following this coin and it just sold yesterday!

Here's the record of the sale price. It would be nice to see these prices on eBay.

Sold for $2,500 on an offer of $3,999:

• Item: 1901 $1 Lesher Dollar, Geo. Mullen, Serial #1509, Silver HK-795 PCGS AG03
• Sale: https://www.ebay.com/itm/314147705131
• Cert: https://www.pcgs.com/cert/45587797

Zoins

Slusher #21 in G06 sold for $900. It has $2,000 PCGS Price Guide Price which may be why there was no need to negotiate the best offer.

• Item: HK-792 - 1901 Lesher Referendum Dollar, J.M Slusher / PCGS G-06
• Sale: https://www.ebay.com/itm/115674267910
• Cert: https://www.pcgs.com/cert/80656492

DCW

@Zoins
I was watching the Slusher.
It was important in fact negotiated from an ask price of $1500:

Zoins

@DCW said:
@Zoins
I was watching the Slusher.
It was important in fact negotiated from an ask price of $1500:

Are you sure it was negotiated down from $1,500?

It seems like the higher priced $1,500 listings are after the $900 sale price.

It seems like someone saw the $2,000 Price Guide price, bought it for $900, and tried to sell it for $1,500.

• Your image has a date of Friday Feb 24 (2023? - Feb 24, 2023 is a Friday)
• It was sold for $900 on Jan 15, 2023
• A listing for $1,500 ended on Jan 30, 2023

DCW

Maybe, I was watching it and the listing ended. So I assumed it was the 900 sale you referenced. Will have to look it up later

PerryHall

I doubt it was ever used in commerce. More likely it was someone's pocket piece.