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Share your thoughts: 1913/2 overdate or plain 1913 on this Peso

I was confident this is the 1913/2 overdate, matching the first picture on page 121 of Schein's book on the pesos. Now someone is casting doubt on that so I'm looking for some more opinions.


Comments

  • AbueloAbuelo Posts: 1,758 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I need to compare to the book... but looks like it is. Maybe.

  • TwoKopeikiTwoKopeiki Posts: 9,528 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's Schein's D1 or D2. 100% overdate.

  • ShadyDaveShadyDave Posts: 2,186 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Euclid can you share a pic of the page reference you’re referring to? I’m sure if you post that, others will be happy to chime in. I’m not familiar with that over date and don’t have a reference to it, but would be happy to give my .02...

  • amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Quite obvious to me!

  • EuclidEuclid Posts: 98 ✭✭✭

    Thanks for your thoughts everyone.

    @ShadyDave said:
    @Euclid can you share a pic of the page reference you’re referring to? I’m sure if you post that, others will be happy to chime in. I’m not familiar with that over date and don’t have a reference to it, but would be happy to give my .02...

    Here's the portion of the reference I'm referring to. It's Mexican Beauty Un Peso Caballito by Allan Schein

  • tkdmastertkdmaster Posts: 14 ✭✭

    Definitely the 1913/2 D2 variety. You had it right.
    Allan Schein

  • tkdmastertkdmaster Posts: 14 ✭✭

    Actually I erred looking at the picture above my post, not the one you posted. It is the 1913 3/2 D1. The three is is double struck as you can see in the upper right of the three, the notch. It has a single tick sticking out of the lower right corner. The numeral 9 has the extra half moon clearly visible on the upper top of the inside of the loop of the 9. They have two different numeral 1's.
    The D2 variety does not have a doubles 3 and has the tick from the lower right corner of a 2 on the lower right, and the prominent bulge on the lower left of the three and no extra "half moon" inside the 9.
    Hope that clarifies this for you.
    Happy you're collecting Caballitos.
    Allan

  • TwoKopeikiTwoKopeiki Posts: 9,528 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @tkdmaster said:
    Actually I erred looking at the picture above my post, not the one you posted. It is the 1913 3/2 D1. The three is is double struck as you can see in the upper right of the three, the notch. It has a single tick sticking out of the lower right corner. The numeral 9 has the extra half moon clearly visible on the upper top of the inside of the loop of the 9. They have two different numeral 1's.
    The D2 variety does not have a doubles 3 and has the tick from the lower right corner of a 2 on the lower right, and the prominent bulge on the lower left of the three and no extra "half moon" inside the 9.
    Hope that clarifies this for you.
    Happy you're collecting Caballitos.
    Allan

    Thanks for chiming-in, Allan! Great to have you share your expertise on these forums!

  • EuclidEuclid Posts: 98 ✭✭✭

    @tkdmaster said:
    Actually I erred looking at the picture above my post, not the one you posted. It is the 1913 3/2 D1. The three is is double struck as you can see in the upper right of the three, the notch. It has a single tick sticking out of the lower right corner. The numeral 9 has the extra half moon clearly visible on the upper top of the inside of the loop of the 9. They have two different numeral 1's.
    The D2 variety does not have a doubles 3 and has the tick from the lower right corner of a 2 on the lower right, and the prominent bulge on the lower left of the three and no extra "half moon" inside the 9.
    Hope that clarifies this for you.
    Happy you're collecting Caballitos.
    Allan

    Thanks so much for your thoughts, and for writing your book! I don't know if I would have started on the series without the reference, and it's been useful for my whole journey so far.

    The coin in question is my best find yet. It's slabbed as a 1913 and I paid accordingly a few years ago, only noticing the overdate when I got it.

    I finally got around to sending it back to Florida to have the variety attributed, but it's being returned without the attribution and hence my doubt. :|

  • tkdmastertkdmaster Posts: 14 ✭✭

    Thanks for your kind words. PCGS attributes the 3/2 overdates by variety, but I've had similar issues as you experienced with NGC in the past. I suppose its time to have a discussion with them because they have attributed this variety numerous times. It couldn't be more clear to me that its the D1, which is the most common variety. Some years ago when one of my submissions was not designated as the overdate, I sent images from a few that were attributed with the cert numbers and the correction was made. They should be getting it right when its so obvious. When the Lissner collection was offered for auction there was an MS-65 1913 that was in fact a D1 variety that I bought from the auction winner without attribution. I re-submitted it to NGC ((cert #3839954-006) and was told that although the graders agreed, they did not believe it to be a strong enough over-date to attribute. That made no sense. If its there, say so. I sent it to PCGS and they did attribute it (28973988) and went a step further. I was asked if I would like them to attribute by individual varieties, which they began doing. Maybe NGC will make a similar adjustment now that the series has become so much more popular. I can suggest it to them.

    Its great to hear that my work had an influence on your interest in this beautiful series. Pillets design is so seemingly simple and straight forward, but seriously complex in symbolism and incorporation of historical elements. The Caballitos popularity seems to have grown significantly, and in the current strength of numismatics in general, prices have gone a bit insane. Common date 65's selling for more than $2000 at auction. Before I published Mexican Beauty I would find at least a handful of Horses at every major show I attended. By 2017/18 I was happy to find one nice Caballito at a show. Even at the Mexico City show there were bowls of VF-XF's set out on dealers tables selling for $35-$40 apiece. I understand in recent years that's just a memory from the past.

    With prices having risen so quickly in the last 18 months, those quoted in my book seem to be merely historical references. Nice coins are much harder to find and collectors seem willing to pay dearly for them. I'm fortunate to have set a few very nice coins aside.

    Keep on the lookout. There are plenty more out there, if you can find them (and afford the price). Good coins are hard to find.

    Wishing you successful coin hunting.

    Allan

  • tkdmastertkdmaster Posts: 14 ✭✭

    Photo of the Lissner Caballito PCGS 1913/2 D1 MS-65, date section only.

  • tkdmastertkdmaster Posts: 14 ✭✭

    To follow-up on the comments about NGC attributing the 1913/2 overdates, they're now doing it. I had a pleasant conversation the day of my last post with Mr. Scott Schechter, VP of NGC about attributions. To make a long conversation concise, Scott said they would re-visit attributing overdates and have now added four of the over-date varieties to their 'Variety Plus" service. There is a $15 fee, but its well worth it. A 1913 in MS-64 is in the $1,000 price range. A 1913/2 in MS-64 is $3,000 or more.
    The four varieties they have added are the 1913/2 Schein D-1, D-2, D-4, and D-5. These are the most prominent and I think its a valuable service for collectors to enhance their coins value. There have already been two D-1's slabbed I see on the website.
    So Euclid, I would give it another try if you haven't already.
    Best of luck.

    Allan

  • EuclidEuclid Posts: 98 ✭✭✭

    @tkdmaster said:
    To follow-up on the comments about NGC attributing the 1913/2 overdates, they're now doing it. I had a pleasant conversation the day of my last post with Mr. Scott Schechter, VP of NGC about attributions. To make a long conversation concise, Scott said they would re-visit attributing overdates and have now added four of the over-date varieties to their 'Variety Plus" service. There is a $15 fee, but its well worth it. A 1913 in MS-64 is in the $1,000 price range. A 1913/2 in MS-64 is $3,000 or more.
    The four varieties they have added are the 1913/2 Schein D-1, D-2, D-4, and D-5. These are the most prominent and I think its a valuable service for collectors to enhance their coins value. There have already been two D-1's slabbed I see on the website.
    So Euclid, I would give it another try if you haven't already.
    Best of luck.

    Allan

    Allan, I'm really glad you were able to get that sorted out! We're certainly better off as a community now that both services will recognize the varieties.

    When I got my coin back I sent it to PCGS who agreed it was D1. I finally have it in hand again and thought I'd close this thread out with the TrueView for anyone who was following to enjoy.

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