First time since 1973 no American men ranked in the top-30

coolstanley

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1390656700538048516

Isner's loss means that for the 1st time since ATP rankings began in 1973, there will be no American man in top 30

It's a rough statistic but it's been a long & steady slide from the last glory days of Sampras, Agassi, Courier & Chang

There is young talent on the rise howeve

stevek

Maybe American athletes are focused on getting big and muscular. Good for football and some other sports, usually bad for tennis.

ringer

Tennis, like some other sports, has been relegated to the upper classes. It just isn’t a sport the common person plays at elite levels because instruction and access is expensive.

coolstanley

@stevek said:
Maybe American athletes are focused on getting big and muscular. Good for football and some other sports, usually bad for tennis.

Not bad at all. Many pro tennis players lift weights. Some have bigger upper bodies and some have bigger lower bodies.

stevek

@coolstanley said:

@stevek said:
Maybe American athletes are focused on getting big and muscular. Good for football and some other sports, usually bad for tennis.

Not bad at all. Many pro tennis players lift weights. Some have bigger upper bodies and some have bigger lower bodies.

Tells ya how long it's been since I've watched a tennis match. LOL

Most of the top men's players i recall weren't built the way you mentioned. I only remember one men's tournament player, can't recall his name, who had sort of a weightlifter build, and even then he wasn't all that big. And US players like Connors and McEnroe used to eat him alive.

lanemyer85

@coolstanley said:
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1390656700538048516

Isner's loss means that for the 1st time since ATP rankings began in 1973, there will be no American man in top 30

It's a rough statistic but it's been a long & steady slide from the last glory days of Sampras, Agassi, Courier & Chang

There is young talent on the rise however

of course we heard there was talent on the way in that previous generation with Isner, Querrey, Donald Young, Jack Sock and Ryan Harrison and while I believe Isner and Querrey did reach their full potential (they were limited in movement and speed for today's men's endurance game), Ryan Harrison and Young were complete disappointments. I recall hearing about how Harrison was going to be the next Roddick while he was making his way up in the juniors and then I saw his footwork, movement, and backhand for the first time and.....nope.

And looking back, that was probably accurate, actually. Roddick was not very athletic either. He would struggle in today's game like he did at the end of his career even at his peak. There would be times when he could overpower a guy with that serve and forehand, but not one of the elite returners like Djoker or Ralph or even someone like Thiem.

I remember Mardy Fish heaping a lot of praise on Sock, and maybe Sock would have accomplished more if he hadn't spent the majority of the last two years+ being injured, but let's be real here, like soccer and some of the other non-top 4 sports in the US, tennis isn't going to get our best athletes. Unless you're at a prep/private school, there's no cool factor in playing tennis at the average American school for boys. Now you'd think some blueblood WASPY type kid would have filtered out of some prep school in the last 20 years just on the law of averages to be a top 5 sort of player, but even then it comes down to....

the Euros are almost overwhelmingly on the gas. Nadal and Djoker for certain, probably Murray in the second half of his career when his calves became hilariously huge. But most of the Spanish and Russians certain were on the gas where there was government-led systematic doping (the Spanish Gov't destroyed blood samples and the whole thing). Not sure about Fed or Murray, maybe they did, maybe they didn't, but I'm 100% certain Nadal and Djoker's numbers are inauthentic. I believe Mardy Fish was the only American of that era who doped (at the end of his career when he made that run into the Top 8). The others I believe were all clean, and they were in the minority when it comes to the men's game of that and this era. So don't discount that. It's been an endurance game for nearly 15 years now and with the ATP slowing down the courts to combat the 140 mph servers, it's made the game nearly more about a player's respective pusher/physio/PED supplier team as it is about their actual tennis skillset. The lower level guys with no money have to use the cheap stuff while the Djokers get the Angel Heredias to show up at their home with the designer stuff like G13. Google Angel Heredia and PEDs. Or the academy in Spain where all the Euros were "training" at. You'll find all kinds of interesting stuff.

Also of note when it comes to American tennis, there are all kinds of issues within the USTA including a crap-ton of conflicts of interest. That also doesn't help development.

https://www.si.com/tennis/2014/08/22/report-usta-funds-benefit-current-former-board-members

stevek

https://www.ranker.com/list/best-1970s-mens-tennis-players/ranker-tennis

I googled it - Roscoe Tanner, ranked #15, was the guy i was thinking of who was big compared to the other players at that time.

Unless something has changed, the men's game with a killer serve and point, to me is dreadfully boring. In my opinion the women's game with longer volleys was much more entertaining to watch.

coolstanley

Football participation among kids is down. Todays U.S. kids are lazy. Takes alot of ambition to take up a sport like football and Tennis. Although Tennis participation went up during 2020.

lanemyer85

@stevek said:

Unless something has changed, the men's game with a killer serve and point, to me is dreadfully boring. In my opinion the women's game with longer volleys was much more entertaining to watch.

if you mean the Pete Sampras/Roddick type game, there are still guys like that, usually the 6'4 and taller players because that's what they have to do since they're more limited in movement/speed. There's a kid from SW Michigan named Reilly Opelka who is 6'11 and bombing 140+ mph serves. He moves a little better than Isner though. But since around 2004 to present it's been the Nadal style that is omnipresent which was largely fashioned from the Lendl/Agassi behind the baseline defense first then wait for errors or guys leaving balls short, then counter attack style of play

It's a near impenetrable defensive game through speed, court coverage, and the ability to feed balls back into court from seemingly impossible positions. And with PEDs, they can do it indefinitely, without tiring. Then you'll have the journeymen types who lack the big serve or forehand or athleticism - thus the superior consistency and subsequently being driven mad trying to find a part of the court that the Nadals and Djokers and Murray at his peak can't get to which of course brings about heaps of unforced errors. It destroys most opponents through sheer attrition and backcourt power, and exposes the prevalent weakness in the transition and attacking game of modern players. Few today can volley successfully. Most are afraid to approach the net. Pretty much everyone besides Fed and a maybe a couple others today are effectively a baseliner, some are worse, they're what you might call a "moonballer" which is where they stand 5-10 feet behind the baseline and return pop-flys back into court and hope for errors. That's why there are no surprise winners anymore. You know Djoker is going to be the favorite on hardcourts, Ralph will win most of the clay tourneys he enters, Fed may have a chance on grass, but Djoker will still be favored, and then maybe one of the younger guys like Thiem or Zherev will play well enough or get a break in a draw to sneak through. You can maybe once in a while get an out of nowhere guy to make a run to the quarters here and there in a major (largely because the game is so physically demanding now everyone is always hurt) but that's about it.

and really the American guys haven't adapted or aren't willing to play that style for the most part. A lot of the American guys are huge - 6'6 or taller like Isner, Querrey and Opelka so the Sampras style is the only option for them,

lanemyer85

forgot to mention this yesterday, but don't forget the pool of talent is much larger than it used to be in the US peak years of the 70's-90's. There weren't many players coming out of the Communist countries back then. Now in a lot of those countries tennis is the #2 most popular sport behind soccer. So today most of those countries are producing talent. Djoker, Cilic won a couple majors (thanks to PEDs), Berdych was a top 5 player for 3 or 4 years etc.
I recall reading a stat about a year ago that in 1989 Navritilova was like the only woman from one of those countries active, now something like 35% of all women on tour are from one of those slavic countries...ie all those women whose surnames end in ova.

thisistheshow

@lanemyer85 Thank you for taking the time to write that out. I don't follow or watch much of any tennis anymore, but I used to a bit, so I know just enough that I was able to really appreciate what you wrote.

Edited to add: I had forgotten how much I used to watch tennis.

lanemyer85

I too have largely taken about 2 years off of watching (for the most part) because the US players have been bad or injured, and guys that I like to watch like Fed and Wawrinka have also missed most of the last two years. Plus I just can't watch Ralph or Djoker anymore. I hate that style of play, they're both gassed to the gills, and frankly as people they're both tiresome and inauthentic. The only thing interesting about either of them is watching Djoker get worked up, then angry, while consistently and comically trying in vein to gain acceptance/affirmation from fans. That he doesn't get the support that Fed/Ralph/Murray etc get just eats away at him and it's high comedy to watch him get tweaked about it.

stevek

@lanemyer85 said:

@stevek said:

Unless something has changed, the men's game with a killer serve and point, to me is dreadfully boring. In my opinion the women's game with longer volleys was much more entertaining to watch.

if you mean the Pete Sampras/Roddick type game, there are still guys like that, usually the 6'4 and taller players because that's what they have to do since they're more limited in movement/speed. There's a kid from SW Michigan named Reilly Opelka who is 6'11 and bombing 140+ mph serves. He moves a little better than Isner though. But since around 2004 to present it's been the Nadal style that is omnipresent which was largely fashioned from the Lendl/Agassi behind the baseline defense first then wait for errors or guys leaving balls short, then counter attack style of play

It's a near impenetrable defensive game through speed, court coverage, and the ability to feed balls back into court from seemingly impossible positions. And with PEDs, they can do it indefinitely, without tiring. Then you'll have the journeymen types who lack the big serve or forehand or athleticism - thus the superior consistency and subsequently being driven mad trying to find a part of the court that the Nadals and Djokers and Murray at his peak can't get to which of course brings about heaps of unforced errors. It destroys most opponents through sheer attrition and backcourt power, and exposes the prevalent weakness in the transition and attacking game of modern players. Few today can volley successfully. Most are afraid to approach the net. Pretty much everyone besides Fed and a maybe a couple others today are effectively a baseliner, some are worse, they're what you might call a "moonballer" which is where they stand 5-10 feet behind the baseline and return pop-flys back into court and hope for errors. That's why there are no surprise winners anymore. You know Djoker is going to be the favorite on hardcourts, Ralph will win most of the clay tourneys he enters, Fed may have a chance on grass, but Djoker will still be favored, and then maybe one of the younger guys like Thiem or Zherev will play well enough or get a break in a draw to sneak through. You can maybe once in a while get an out of nowhere guy to make a run to the quarters here and there in a major (largely because the game is so physically demanding now everyone is always hurt) but that's about it.

and really the American guys haven't adapted or aren't willing to play that style for the most part. A lot of the American guys are huge - 6'6 or taller like Isner, Querrey and Opelka so the Sampras style is the only option for them,

Very interesting how tennis has evolved over the past 50 years.

coolstanley

@lanemyer85 said:
forgot to mention this yesterday, but don't forget the pool of talent is much larger than it used to be in the US peak years of the 70's-90's. There weren't many players coming out of the Communist countries back then. Now in a lot of those countries tennis is the #2 most popular sport behind soccer. So today most of those countries are producing talent. Djoker, Cilic won a couple majors (thanks to PEDs), Berdych was a top 5 player for 3 or 4 years etc.
I recall reading a stat about a year ago that in 1989 Navritilova was like the only woman from one of those countries active, now something like 35% of all women on tour are from one of those slavic countries...ie all those women whose surnames end in ova.

I've become more interested in watching the past couple of years because of the slam race. Pretty historic time right now as 4 players currently in the race to become the all-time leader and GOAT.

lanemyer85

that should be the case for everyone. Unfortunately for many of us, it will likely come down to the equivalent of watching Bonds break Aaron's HR record....unless you also happen to believe Fed was doping in which case it's all a wash.

And of course there will always be the (largely older) sector of fans who will always believe Laver was the GOAT.

coolstanley

@lanemyer85 said:
that should be the case for everyone. Unfortunately for many of us, it will likely come down to the equivalent of watching Bonds break Aaron's HR record....unless you also happen to believe Fed was doping in which case it's all a wash.

And of course there will always be the (largely older) sector of fans who will always believe Laver was the GOAT.

Wow really? What proof do you have that any of those players are doping?

And I do believe that Laver is indeed in the discussion.

lanemyer85

well go read about "Operation Puerto" for starters. A Spanish sports doctor with ties to their training academy that a lot of Euro players matriculated through was busted with supplying EPO/HGH etc to cyclists, tennis, and soccer players among others. Then during the trial when various sports federations wanted the names associated with those recipients (who all had blood samples on file with the academy) released, the Spanish Gov't had them destroyed. So the speculation was that numerous high profile Spanish athletes had been supplied by this doctor including Nadal, Ferrer and pretty much every Spanish cyclist around who Nadal was also close with. Then think of all the times Nadal won a tourney, was perfectly fine throughout, then a week later he's on the mend with some injury. All the time. Wins the French, plays no other tourney, then has to withdraw from the grass season. How many times has he come back from a "severe knee injury" after months off and then won the tourney? A lot. Not natural.

Plus, I have eyes and while the season has been shortened a bit nowadays, we're only a few years removed from the tennis season running for 11 months straight. So when would these players have the time to build up the superhuman cardio that most do? Yes Fed trains in the desert of Dubai, Djoker reportedly has a CVAC chamber in his home. But it's not possible to never tire without help. Remember that Aussie Open Final with Nadal and Djoker that went 6 hours? They both played 5 setters the day before and they were both fresh as could be in the dead of an Australian summer. That's just not humanly possible without some help...and that help, from what I've been told by a former college roommate/D1 tennis player/now D1 coach, is micro-dosing EPO, HGH and testesterone (at minimum) It leaves the body by the end of the match, or within the matter of hours so it's easy to avoid testing positive because the testers aren't going to make you take a test before a match. And in 2019, 1600 doping tests were administered, but only 67 of them were blood tests. The rest urine. You can only catch the HGH and other designer PEDs with blood tests. So you'd have to be a gullible dope to think that this stuff isn't rampant in tennis, soccer, probably the NBA, or any other endurance sport too.

It's gone now but this site

http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.com/2011/02/curious-case-of-rafael-nadal.html

used to keep track of all Nadal quotes in papers or interviews on his training habits, and his opinion on PED testing. He's anti-testing because it's "too invasive" (gee wonder why), and he routinely talked about how he doesn't like to or really work out that much. Well you don't get that frame by not being a gym rat, without help. Yes it was a blog but it was repeatedly quoted by ESPN, Washington Post etc.

oh and here's Djoker taking a testosterone troche (A-rod's personal favorite pre-game PED boost) on court many years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxzIfPxbdGI

Remember Robin Soderling? Made it to #5 in the world, the only guy to beat Ralph at the French, and then completely disappeared? The ATP said it was due to mono. Well a French paper kept track of his girlfriend's social media accounts and weeks after his horrible case of "mono" that was supposedly keeping him bedridden, he was off snow skiiing and travelling abroad. So pretty much everyone is under the assumption he received a lifetime "silent" ban due to PEDs. So when it comes to tennis, it needs to be looked at like cycling. Clean players are the minority.

galaxy27

lanemyer doesn't post often but when he does he brings it

my dad (75) has often brought up Laver as one of the all-time best..........if not the best in his mind

coolstanley

Almost everything lanemyer stated is false. There is zero evidence that Nadal is on steroids.

Justacommeman

@coolstanley said:
Almost everything lanemyer stated is false. There is zero evidence that Nadal is on steroids.

If he was would it change your opinion of him?

m

lanemyer85

so you clearly didn't bother to read anything about Operation Puerto, or Spain's systematic doping then. Cool.
Regardless, if he was/is on the gas, and tested positive, you would never truly know about it anyway. We're talking about the ATP here. The org which won't publicly acknowledge PED bans to top players (Soderling), or even if/when a top player does test positive (Marin Cilic) they reduce the ban for no logical reason anyway. Then of course there is the Agassi meth suspension which was never announced even though it's an ATP mandate that it must be.

They'd certainly not publicly announce a ban of a top player like Fed, Ralph or Djoker because it would kill the tour. It's already rapidly fading here (4 American men's tourneys (LA, San Jose, Memphis, Indy) have moved out of country over the last few years). Regardless, no one said you weren't allowed to be a Nadal fanboy, buddy. Just maybe don't be one of THOSE fanboys.

coolstanley

@lanemyer85 said:
so you clearly didn't bother to read anything about Operation Puerto, or Spain's systematic doping then. Cool.
Regardless, if he was/is on the gas, and tested positive, you would never truly know about it anyway. We're talking about the ATP here. The org which won't publicly acknowledge PED bans to top players (Soderling), or even if/when a top player does test positive (Marin Cilic) they reduce the ban for no logical reason anyway. Then of course there is the Agassi meth suspension which was never announced even though it's an ATP mandate that it must be.

They'd certainly not publicly announce a ban of a top player like Fed, Ralph or Djoker because it would kill the tour. It's already rapidly fading here (4 American men's tourneys (LA, San Jose, Memphis, Indy) have moved out of country over the last few years). Regardless, no one said you weren't allowed to be a Nadal fanboy, buddy. Just maybe don't be one of THOSE fanboys.

There are still some big events here, Indian Wells, Cincinnati, Miami, US Open, etc. Tennis isn't fading. Its the 3rd most popular sport in the World.
The sport's leaders strictly follow the WADA code. Tennis testing effort is most rigorous at the sport's highest levels, the top 160 players are drug tested between 10 and 20 times a year. It's unrealistic to expect tennis to test every player sample for every substance -- unannounced and out of competition.

lanemyer85

I said it's fading here, as in the US. If it wasn't fading, the aforementioned 4 tourneys wouldn't have moved out of the country over the last 5 or so years. More importantly, there is a steep decline in American players, especially college players. Oh and 51% of all college tennis players in the US are foreign born players. Not even going to get into tv ratings, but they're way down across the board in the US save for when Serena plays in a major tourney final. The ATP has been dumping their money into growing the game in Asia since 2013, since Li Na quickly became a star, briefly, then she retired early. They saw Chinese dollar signs, and now that's gone. If you ever watch those tourneys in China, like the Shanghai tourney, and a few others, there is no one in the stands. But that's been their focus.

There's nothing "rigorous" about their testing. It's barely adequate at best...and it's always going to be adequate at best because A) they're not willing to pay for all the blood tests, and B- they really don't have any interest in actually catching anyone. And in fairness to them, neither does international soccer, the NBA, NFL, or NHL. Even if/when they do happen to catch someone, they'll reduce the ban as they did for Cilic and Troicki, for no reason whatsoever. Nadal was tested once in competition in 2017. 3 times in 2018, 3 times in 2019. He plays 20-ish tourneys a year when healthy. So I mean, yeah, that's definitely rigorous. He had a 7% chance of receiving one urine test that wouldn't even detect EPO or HGH. Oh my, how invasive.

I don't care how many times anyone is tested out of competition because that's utterly pointless when EPO and HGH and testosterone are out of one's system within hours. Yes in a perfect world everyone would receive a blood test 10-15 minutes before heading out onto court, and then supervised after those 10-15 minutes before heading onto court Yes that's not realistic because the players wouldn't allow it and because the ATP wouldn't pay for all of those tests. But that would be the only legitimate way to curb the use. The ATP has already shown they use silent bans, so whether anyone has actually tested positive or not, most will never be made public. I suspect the ones that are made public are those who have been found to be repeat offenders.

The only reason there is any sort of testing to begin with is because the ATP got publicly hammered when dopey South African, Wayne Odesnik, got pinched trying to bring vials of HGH in his suitcase through the airport in Australia years ago. Otherwise it wouldn't even exist.