SNAD abuse on Ebay/Paypal . Sellers beware .
1peter1223
Posts: 131 ✭✭✭
3/28/21 ( Sunday ) a Prospective buyer makes an offer on a Vintage Slab I had for sale on ebay .
I make a counter-offer .
Buyer messages me and states he would accept if I could give him till Friday (4/2/21) to pay . I start to see an issue at this point .
I tell him I would prefer if he would let my offer expire and I can send him a new offer on Friday . I clearly explained why I prefer this . Ebay does not wait for you to get paypal payment or other sort of payment before they charge your account .
Buyer goes ahead and accepts my offer despite what I messaged him . He messages me that he will pay before Friday .
To my surprise he pays next day and I am happy about that .
I ship coin that same day ( Monday 3/29/21) he paid .
Buyer received coin on 4/1/21 .
Buyer leaves positive feedback and I also do same for him .
I think all is fine and dandy .
Almost 3 weeks later ( 4/20/21 ) buyers opens up a return claim on ebay . The Reason stated is “ Just did not like it “ .
I decline the return and Ebay immediately closed the case in my favor .
I think it is over and I have won .
WRONG .
A few hours later , Buyer proceeds to open up a case with paypal , BUT this time he claims it is for SNAD .
We go back and forth with paypal but eventually they rule in buyers favor . I get coin back and paypal charges my bank account .
Item was for $585 so I am out about $17 in paypal fees . My shipping cost ( $11.65 ) . and 35.98 in ebay fees .
All together I am out $64.63.
This is the 2nd time ( in 6 months ) a buyer opens up a SNAD case against me after holding the item for many days or even weeks like in this case .
Looks like there is no protection for sellers from abusive ebay buyers , especially when the feared SNAD case is opened .
Comments
you should be able to get eBay fees back, but it still suks
Sorry to hear that. You don’t get your Ebay fees back when a buyer returns a purchase?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Welcome to retail. This is not an eBay problem. It's a retail problem.
If you receive payment in anything but cash or a cash equivalent (check or money order), then a buyer can file a chargeback for SNAD for up to SIX MONTHS in many cases.
I always recommend two things:
I would also add: don't underestimate the value of eBay protections. They have always had my back and made good on their seller protections, including a recent case of SNAD abuse:
I had a customer buy 10 proof ASEs for $1100. eBay charged the buyer sales tax. I offered to cancel. Buyer said ship, he'd work it out with eBay. 3 days after they arrive, he files a SNAD with the note that "he was returning it due to the sales tax erroneously charged".
I called eBay. eBay said I had to accept the return but that because of my sterling track record, I could charge him for the shipping and do a partial refund without his permission. I did that. eBay paid him the cost of shipping. Everyone was made whole. Try that on the BST or Facebook Marketplace...
You can block this buyer from bidding or buying on your items moving forward. Just put him on your blocked bidders list😎
One can't charge restocking on ebay?
Wow! Sorry you had to deal with that.
Once ebay rules on a case paypal will usually side with them.
Just one more problem transaction because of ebay illegally collecting sales tax in states they shouldn't.
I would love the ebay ID to add to my BBL.
Sorry you're experiencing this...I am absolutely ruthless when it comes to dealing with customer service.
I would contact PayPal and offer to show them and explain what happened through ebay... so that they can understand it is the customer being fraudulent...Ask to open a fraud investigation on your chargeback, you might get a nice surprise...
Because if the customer has a habit of this PayPal will see it.
Coins are Neato!
"If it's a penny for your thoughts and you put in your two cents worth, then someone...somewhere...is making a penny." - Steven Wright
If I understand the rules eBay does not allow restocking fees.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I will call ebay tomorrow to see if they can reimburse my final value fee . Being that Ebay closed the claim in my favor i am thinking they might use that as an excuse to not reimburse .
BTW- Paypal told me it was not them ruling in the buyers favor . They said it was his credit card company doing that so they had no choice but to side with him .
There are actual chat boards , internet sites dedicated to telling consumers how to get over on sellers/retailers with abusive returns .
Here is an example of such a site .....
https://www.creditcardinsider.com/blog/credit-card-return-protection-benefits-how-to-use-them-to-get-a-refund/
In my experience on customer returns, the eBay and PayPal fees were refunded less a 30 cent charge. I usually had to eat he shipping.
I'm guessing the buyer may have shopped it around for a few days in an attempt to flip it for a profit. When he couldn't flip it, he decided to return it. Or, perhaps he found a better deal somewhere else on a similar coin. Or, possibly he's just a fickle buyer. In any case, just block him and move on.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
On those platforms I'm just telling them no returns were offered or implied and I'm only taking payment in non-recoupable means so the buyer is SOL.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
If the buyer filed the SNAD with PayPal, you are not getting the coin back. This happened to me around the first of the year before managed payments. Luckily it wasn't an expensive item.
Here is the e-mail they sent me:
We've completed our review of this case and decided in favor of your buyer. The buyer stated that the item was defective or not as described. Please be aware that due to consumer protection laws, PayPal cannot guarantee the return of your merchandise if the case is found in favor of the buyer.
It wasn't ebay. It was a charge back. If you, or anyone else, files a credit card charge back, there no restocking fee. Consider yourself lucky if the credit card company even requires a return of the item. [Only slight exaggeration. ]
Hence my second rule: never agree to pay in a nonrefundable manner unless it is truly family
That's just a waste of money amongst known good associates.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Out the buyer please....personally I would like to know his/her ID
bob
Again, for true family and friends, cash is fine. But that really limits your ability to do business
DM him. People should not be publicly outed off a one-sided testimonial, especially from a newbie.
JM- in another life you were a defense attorney😁
100% positive transactions with SurfinxHI, bigole, 1madman, collectorcoins, proofmorgan, Luke Marshall, silver pop, golden egg, point five zero,coin22lover, alohagary, blaircountycoin,joebb21
I'm very sorry for your bad experience. I no longer have PayPal and no longer purchase on EBay. It isn't what it used to be.
Thats awesome they did that for you but why are you comparing a platform that lets you sell for free like BST to one that charges whatever ebay does to sell there?
It got the same email from Paypal . I was shocked and had to reread it . I said to myself if buyer tries to pull off a theft like that i would close my ebay and PayPal account .
I actually put my cell phone on a tripod mount i have for it and filmed the opening of the package just in case .
Luckily all was good ( returned in exact condition i sold it ) and i was actually very happy/relieved at that point . I then signed into my PayPal account and responded on the dispute that i had received the coin . Just wanted to take the medicine and get it over with . That same day they took the $585 out of my bank account and i was done with it .
I'm just pointing out that you get what you pay for. You get a wider audience and protections on eBay that don't exist on BST or Facebook Marketplace. Free is great but comes with full buyer protection and zero seller protection.
That's fine, except neither PayPal nor eBay are at all responsible for this. It's the CC company.
We've seen stories evolve on this very forum. You might recall (or not) a Seated dollar (half?) transaction that started with one person outing another and resulting in both of them accusing the other of being the culprit.
eBay can be a hot mess but overwhelmingly no issues. I had a recent buyer complain that a package wasn’t delivered, height of covid delays. We waited a week and it didn’t show up so I refunded him as he was saying he would leave negative feedback. I asked when the coin arrived to ship it back. He got his refund and two days later it was delivered. He sent me about 10 messages over 3 days and after it was delivered, never responded to another message again.
Did you get your coin returned?
Indian Head $10 Gold Date Set Album
It was me
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
BHNC #248 … 130 and counting.
Nope.
Ugh!! Sorry about that. Sounds like you were dealing with a real crook.
Indian Head $10 Gold Date Set Album
It is a cost of being in the business. I rarely have returns but understand your frustration.
If setting up at a show the most I am going to lose is the table fee and travel expenses. No worry about eBay, USPS, PayPal, some bad buyer.
At upcoming dhow plan spend any allocated buying cash with slab wholesaler after getting in as early as I can and leave some cash for change, usual minimum cash balance. Then enjoy free coffee and doughnuts.
Buyer protection Laws??? something is fishy here as you as the seller have all the buyers info already.
My biggest problem has been USPS of late. Two lost packages.
Sold a $400 coin and sent it Fed Ex.
Luckily most of my stuff is $25 proof sets or $3 to $5 raw Lincoln cents. Sellers have been sympathetic.
Returns are just part of the problem. Especially if the image is marginal. I always try to include image of PUP areas or use TV's
A pain... I know
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
UPDATE.
Called Ebay a little while ago and while the rep was very nice he explained to me what i already expected . Since they ( Ebay ) ruled in my favor and closed the case already i would have to take it up with PayPal and see what they could do for me regarding the fees i was out .
Called Paypal and the rep was also very nice . He actually credited the PayPal fees back AND also gave me a credit for the Ebay final value fee .
So i am just out the $11.65 shipping which is not that bad at all .
PayPal took the loss on the Ebay Final value fees , which was pretty nice on their part .
The money was in my PayPal account immediately after speaking to rep .
Sales tax did not have anything to do with the OP's experience.
You are correct.
I must have had a brain cramp.
It happens on a daily basis
I read what jmlanzaf wrote and somehow made it all one story.
"I had a customer buy 10 proof ASEs for $1100. eBay charged the buyer sales tax. I offered to cancel. Buyer said ship, he'd work it out with eBay. 3 days after they arrive, he files a SNAD with the note that "he was returning it due to the sales tax erroneously charged".
My fault.
You could even say that eBay and PayPal had nothing to do with it. 8n fact, eBay and PayPal saved the OP from the CREDIT CARD CHARGEBACK ABUSE.
But, of course, they get the blame because people.. well... are people.
i do not have paypal anymore under the new e bay selling platform. the money goes straight into my checking account, but i do understand your frustration
.
.
Not sure how my comprehension skills are your fault.... but hey, I ain't gonna argue with you.
Thanks for your support.
You know, I think I'd have to hit someone if they called me a SNAD.
It is a four letter word after all............
Pete
You always wonder why buyers who change their minds bought it in the first place. I have always considered this a hobby business, buyers and sellers should regularly expect to lose something on transactions, that's the nature of life, one way transactions rarely exist especially in an international health crisis. If both parties made allowances for misunderstandings peace of mind would be better. Item not as described should be something that is provable not grasping at straws.
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you don't have to read this all johnny, i just happened to quote your post.
change, she constantly sings the tune we all dance to.
ebay link (updated policies) https://pages.ebay.com/seller-center/seller-updates/2017-fall/returns.html#:~:text=Automatic acceptance of returns,buyer pays for return shipping
i also posted to say that if you choose the RMA option, it will stop buyers from automatically being able to get ebay to print labels on your account. having some control of the shipping type/place is important in a lot of situations. i use an external site integrated with ebay to ship (non-coin large heavy items but not big/heavy enough for ups/fedex) called cubic-rate.
Setting your return rules: https://www.ebay.com/help/selling/managing-returns-refunds/handling-return-requests/setting-rules-return-requests?id=4368&mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5336728181&customid=&toolid=10001
then at the bottom of the page here:
https://www.ebay.com/rtn/Return/SellerRules
i've tried to find a way to disable automatic returns but ebay does not allow that option from what i can tell. GRRRR of course, to streamline for buyers. (i had some items under $100 that because buyers didn't contact me and just opted for automatic returns and the label was printed for them, at my expense, to the tune of $50 for each label (2, almost 3) before i caught it per label. OUCH normally $8-15. so i had to switch to buyer pays returns until i figured out a solution and it took me a few weeks unfortunately. found a tutorial from drop-shippers because automatic returns were shipping items to them in-lieu of whom they were drop-shipping for. so it seems this RMA option stops all of it dead in its tracks. even if you have NO RETURNS, buyers can still do returns AND after the return period stated in the listing (even though a seller can just deny it at that point, or proceed if they want).
have a lot of items that have been sitting waiting for a solution to stop auto returns. sheesh.