John Smoltz tells awesome story about Barry Bonds
doubledragon
Posts: 23,269 ✭✭✭✭✭
Very entertaining story!
John Smoltz surrendered eight home runs to Barry Bonds over his Hall of Fame career.
Barry Bonds got the best of many, many pitchers during his legendary MLB career, but John Smoltz shared perhaps the best “Barry Bonds owned me” story of all time on Sunday.
During the New York Yankees-Cleveland Indians game on MLB Network, Smoltz shared an awesome story about the time Bonds got angry with him because Bonds thought Smoltz was rooting for Mark McGwire in the Home Run Derby. Smoltz said he was actually rooting for Bonds, but Bonds believed otherwise. Smoltz says Bonds came up to him and told him, “I’m gonna tell you something right now — next time I face you, I’m gonna hit a homer off you.” Bonds also told Smoltz he was going to do a pirouette at home plate when it happened.
Smoltz responded by promising to sit down on the mound if he struck Bonds out the next time the two faced. That only made Bonds angrier. The slugger then said, “As a matter of fact, Smoltz, I’m hitting two off you.” And he did. You can hear the full story below:
Smoltz said Bonds hit two homers off him in a meaningless September game. While Bonds didn’t do a pirouette, he did seek out Smoltz on the bus after the game.
“He came on the bus (and said), ‘Where’s Smoltz? Where is he? I told you I was gonna get you,'” Smoltz recalled Bonds saying. “And then he goes, ‘All right guys, go get the ring.'”
That isn’t the first interesting Bonds story we have heard this month, but the other wasn’t nearly as flattering.
Bonds hit 762 home runs during his career, and eight were off Smoltz. That is tied for the most off any pitcher the former Giant faced. Smoltz probably remembers all of them, but it’s easy to see why those two stand out.
Comments
Here is the video of John telling the story.
bonds was the best i ever saw.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Yes, he is the best hitter I've ever seen in my lifetime. When he stepped into the batters box, I wasn't going anywhere until that at-bat was over, my eyes were glued to the TV. He could hit the wings off of a fly.
Killebrew was like that for me, the difference (again, for me) is that Harmon did it with natural ability, Barry got his power out of a syringe.
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Most successful cheater in any sport ever!
Lance Armstrong says hello!
Didn't they take Lance's victories away?
Barry Bonds was legendary during his HR record chasing year, regardless of PEDS it was beastly
The whole league was on PEDs during that time, it isn't called the steroid era for nothing. It was a level playing field.
they have been cheating at sports since the beginning. some people just prefer some types of cheating over others.
some types of cheating are acceptable, others are not.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I been saying the EXACT same thing for years here.
Yep, but he still won them and made a fortune doing it.
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So Barry got the money and has the records, while Lance got the money and is stripped of his records.
NO.
@JoeBanzai > NO.
Joe your going to say that the league for the most part was not on PEDS at that time? Is that where you stand?
Tom House, a pitcher in the 70's, said 7 or 8 pitchers on EVERY staff in the 1970s were on steroids.
in the 1970s.
your head is in the sand if you think most players were not on something.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
The fact that McGwire/Sosa and earlier Griffey/Thomas were going all the media/hobby attention and were seen as heroes by both them and fans and Bonds, not nearly so much is in fact what turned him to the Dark Side ('roids). I mean he did win three out of four MVPs (1990, 1992, 1993) yet Griffey/Thomas were consistently the 1-2 guys in the hobby at the time. No wonder he snapped after the whole McGwire/Sosa thing (especially if he knew they were taking 'roids) and went to the Dark Side.
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
Oh yeah? Was that supposed "fortune" worth making himself a big joke and a big fake? As Rudolph's father once said, there are some things in life more important than money...self respect!
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
Bonds is without question, the greatest athlete to ever play the game. He is the only player in the 500/500 club to go along with his 8 gold gloves. No one else even comes close.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
His godfather Willie Mays is light years ahead of that swollen head faker. Let's see Mr. I Must Have My Own Recliner In The Clubhouse handle a giant center field that goes back 480ish feet :P
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
Cheating with little or no improvement in production is not the same as a guy who hits 25-30 HR every year who cheats and then is able to hit 70. If it was, the guys in the 70's would have been a lot bigger and hit a lot more HR,
I researched about steroids in body building, Football and Baseball.
Steroids use without a good weight training program does little or nothing for performance, other than speeding up healing of damaged tissue. Weightlifting in baseball was discouraged by most everyone in the 1970's, the thought was players would lose flexibility and become "muscle bound".
The guys in the 1970's were using cortisone.......a steroid to treat inflammation. Not the same as winstrol and deca durabolin.
Mickey Mantle getting one illegal shot is like a guy doing one push up and thinking that will make him stronger.
If you think taking a few uppers to stay awake is the same as what Bonds/Arod/McGwire/Sosa did by totally re-engineering their bodies you simply don't understand.
Guys that cheat and get no results don't effect the numbers, a very few guys made the commitment to learn about steroids and go to the extremes to achieve stupendous results.
Cheating is always wrong, but like anything else there are degrees to any wrong act.
After 2000 you weren't watching Barry Bonds. It was a hideous perversion.
I loved Bonds on the Pirates when I was young and he was skinny. Both of our heads were smaller back then. My excuse is I was in elementary school.
UMMMMMMMMMM........ PERFECTLY SAID. The level of cheating is what separates Bonds. I know someone is going to say Aaron took a greenie on a 19 hour bus ride from Atlanta to Boston to stay awake for a next afternoon day game. That makes him exactly the same as Bonds. I crack up when I hear that and it comes up almost every single talk of PEDs. I will say one thing though.....that Greg Anderson/trainer is the most loyal person on the face of the planet. He plead the 5th multiple times and did longer sentences because of the Bonds stuff. Never ratted Bonds. I'll never forget the Sports Illustrated story with the picture of "growing head" from the side when he was dead lifting. He looked like a power lifter. It was freakish looking. He was a heck of a player; but took it too far.
Please, gimme a break. Guys like you and a bunch of others will say that “Cheating is cheating”!!! in reference to the Patriots/Tom Brady and a .0000001 extra amount of PSI in a football. 🙄
I will have to disagree with your research. Anabolic Steroids were introduced in 1960. Dianabol is an effective anabolic steroid that was used widely in sports starting in the 60's. you heard the House quote above. most pitching staffs of the 70's were on anabolics when House pitched. you can bet it didn't stay in the bullpens. you can also bet it didn't start the day House was promoted to the show.
They did use cortisone in the 70's, but they also used anabolics.
Football players started using Dianabol in the 1960's. it is famously known that the 1970s steelers were heavy abusers of anabolic steroids. it was widespread by the 70's and 80's.
If you think the shot that went bad for Mantle in 1960 was the only time he ever took steroids and he just happened to have a bad reaction, just. that. one. time. you are more nieve than I ever dreamed. same with Hank Aaron. it was just that one time, right??
as far as your assertion that Amphetamines were taken to "stay awake" you couldn't be more wrong.
amphetamines are far far far more effective than that.
ask willie mays and a host of others.
how could you possibly know who cheated and got no results and didn't affect the numbers? It is impossible to know all who cheated, and how much their numbers were affected. It was a culture where according to those who have come out and spoken about it, was wide wide-ranging.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
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I do say that Brady realized the balls were underinflated, I don't say that "cheaters are cheaters" and I never said Brady should lose his GOAT status because of it.
This is actually a perfect example of how cheating can actually hurt your performance. Didn't he perform better once the balls were properly inflated?
Just like when s guy took too many "greenies" and got too shaky to do the job.
Joe, you said it yourself,
"cheating is always wrong"
you then qualified it by saying there are degrees.
do you find PED to be cheating because they are against a sports rules? or is it because you see the end result of PED use and think the numbers are tainted?
If it is because of a rule breakage, MLB banned Steroids in 2005 and HGH in 2011. anything before that was fair game.
If you see it as a sliding scale of morality, you are trying to hit a moving target. you have to list all the types of cheating: Illegal equipment, sign stealing, any PED, starting with asprin and cortisone, Amphetamines all the way to the most modern lab created Steroid.
then you have to figure out how much each type of cheating helped out the player.
then you need to figure out what YOUR penalty will be for each infraction.
it is absolutely impossible.
there are different eras in sport. there have been cheating in all of them. in context, while YOU may not see the value of Pud Galvins testosterone injections of the 1890s or Ruths in the 1920's or Mantles in the 1960's, those players did at that time.
keep in mind, the designer steroids used today will be looked upon by sports fans 75 years from now as ineffectual as the injections Ruth got in the 1920's.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Easy. look at the numbers and results and use common sense. NONE of the guys from the 60's 70's or 80's got HUGE! We do know who did cheat by failed tests and then we look at their power arc's, actually pretty easy to see what steroids used in conjunction with weight training does.
Was dirt poor Mickey Mantle on a steroid regimen in High School? He was big from day one. Never got bigger though.
Mickey, even IF he used steroids, never picked up a weight in his life, this has been said hundreds of times, so taking steroids couldn't have improved his ability to hit.
Also Mays, Killebrew Mathews and Aaron?
All these guys and almost every HOFer quickly established their HR frequency and never really exceeded it. If they hit 45-50 HRs in a season they never hit 70.
Steroids were brought to the NFL by a trainer with the KC Chiefs and went to the Raiders and some other teams in the mid-late 1960's.
As I said, baseball players didn't hit the weight room and were actually forbidden to do so by some of the teams at that time.
Post a link to the Tom House statements, I will read it.
By the way, a MUCH better known pitcher, Jim Bouton says that greenies could hurt your performance as well as help. He also said they were used a lot in the 1960's, and like any steroid use during that time, had negligible results. Read "Ball Four" great read.
Read Canseco's books, this is where steroid use actually began to change the landscape. He says nobody really knew what they were doing, they weren't getting his kind of results.
Ok if you stand by those comments then all good with me 🍻
There have been tests that show steroid use alone will increase strength. now, not as much as when working out, but it does increase strength. you are correct, that when coupled with exercise, steroid use is more effective. It has to do with breaking down muscle fibres and the steroid heals them faster so the muscle group will get larger.
now, body builders, football players and baseball players who used in the 90's and beyond are well known gym rats who worked heavily with weights and looked the part of bodybuilders. suffice to say, they didn't skip leg day.
Imagine that in the 1960s, 70's, 80's baseball players were told not to work out with weights. Imagine those same players taking steroids and taking lots and lots and lots of batting practice. they are in effect, working out the exact muscles they need to work on to increase bat speed and stamina for swinging a bat. Imagine much less muscle soreness in their backs, shoulders, wrists and forearms... and they didn't look like bodybuilders. but they did have very well developed baseball muscles...
so no, steroid users of earlier decades did not resemble a musclebound mark mcgwire. but they work very hard on the very muscle groups necessary to quicken bat speed and have lots of stamina.
here are the simple results on a Harvard Study on steroids after 4 months
A. Steroids + 4 days working out per week (same regimen)
B. Steroids + No workout
C. Placebo + 4 days working out per week (same regimen)
After:
A. 6% gain in muscle mass
B. 4% gain in muscle mass
C. 2% gain in muscle mass
this shows a 50% gain in muscle mass from steroid users who did no workouts over placebo users with 4 day a week working out. that is significant. those baseball players from the 60s and 70s were working out though. they were working on pitching, fielding and hitting. they were working out the specific muscles they needed to get an advantage.
"Conclusion: Intake of anabolic steroids and strength-training induce an increase in muscle size by both hypertrophy and the formation of new muscle fibers"
so, new muscle fibers are in fact forming also increasing strength in steroid users. even those who do not work out. but as we know, those players were working out. not on bench presses or squats or dead lifts, they were swinging bats and weighted bats. over and over and over. the whole time gaining at least 50% more muscle mass in those specific groups than non users who worked out hard.
I don't think dirt poor mantle was on steroids in high school, but I know he was in the 1960s. I in no way believe it was "just that one time" I know about Mickeys compulsive nature. that is common sense
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Very well stated. Swinging a bat is in essence lifting weights...albeit a very light weight. They also did a lot of bodyweight exercises, which is also like 'lifting weights' but again, not as much weight. Catchers who are constantly crouching are in essence doing squats, which is a great exercise. Lifting heavier weights will lead to much more progress, but you will get some benefit in your neuromuscular system doing bodyweight and lightweight exercises too if you are taking steroids.
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You need to work out with heavy weights and low repetitions to get the benefits Bonds etc got.
From 1920 forward hitting 50 home runs in a season was rare.
Mantle, Mays and Griffey did it a couple of times each and none got over 56. Killebrew and Aaron never hit 50, neither did Ted Williams, Mike Schmidt, Pujols, Frank Robinson, Reggie or most if not all the "clean" 500 HR hitters.
Then along come the juicers and they are hitting 65-70.
There's really no comparison, none of the "big three" Bonds, Sosa and McGwire were even hitting 40 a year consistently, the steroid era kicks in and BOOM.
Who has their "head in the sand" here?
Yes, I said that: " ********Lifting heavier weights will lead to much more progress**********"
But that doesn't mean that no benefit is achieved from steroids use in conjunction with bodyweight exercises, medicine ball workouts, or swinging bats etc... That is still resistance training but with a lighter load. Less bang for the buck, but gains can still be made.
But I think it is pretty clear that the stuff (and workout regime) Bonds and them were using were much more effective. Kind of hard to argue against that.
Joe, you said "cheating is always wrong". but then you seem to dismiss all of the cheating that went on pre late 1990s as ineffectual or not noteworthy.
so... if all cheating is wrong, how much cheating is too wrong? when should we either kick guys out of the hall or not elect them? when should we throw out records? when should we discount statistics?
would it be when they use lots of steroids? how about just a little? maybe somewhere in the middle? what about hgh? what about cheating with doctored balls or bats? what about stealing signs? what about amphetamines?
I am genuinely curious. It seems like a fair amount of cognitive dissonance going on here.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
If you throw a spitball, that's illegal, buy it doesn't always work the way you want to. When it doesn't, it comes in as a nice fat fastball and is easily crushed.
If you steal signs illegally, you still have to hit the ball, if the other team figures it out and changes the signs, you fail.
Corked bat? might shatter and you get in trouble.
Whenever you get into any kind of competition, many (not all) cheat.
Generally speaking, BC (before Canseco) there was no way to get better with no downside AND get a lot better. As I pointed out 50 HR is rare and 60 HR is practically impossible up to that point.
Up until then, you could beat a cheater if you were very good.
Bonds was a superb all around player, not a slugger, McGwire was hitting an average of 36 HR per year and was at that level for quite some time, Sosa was at 34.
This was out of control, they did the impossible. MLB and the union was as much to blame for cashing in.
I have explained my position on this several times and in several ways.
@craig44 said:
Of course there are degrees to being guilty and cheating etc.... Not dropping a quarter at the community coffee spot in the office is not the same as defrauding the government of 100 million dollars. Are we seriously back to Hank taking a greenie or Mickey getting a cortisone shot when his leg was bleeding through his pants in 1961 and comparing it to a guys head swelling like a watermelon and seemingly becoming superhuman. No one here is saying Bonds wasn't a terrific player it's just the cheating got completely out of hand. And a big YES to the league/owners/union and partly the fans being to blame also. And also yes...BIG MAC and the guy who turned completely white or pink is totally full of crap too. So not everyone is just picking on poor Barry.
Could care less about Brady and the balls. I honestly don't really know enough about it. And no....guys like me don't treat all cheating as the same. Some cheating is silly and stupid and some is straight up dangerous and illegal.
And no....guys like me don't treat all cheating as the same. Some cheating is silly and stupid and some is straight up dangerous and illegal.
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Well said.
Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems you are basing your argument against CERTAIN types of cheating on how well the player was able to compete against their peers as opposed to the fact that they broke an official rule and by definition cheated.
If this is the case, the buck really needs to stop with Babe Ruth. No player ever was more dominant vs their peers than Ruth. It is really indisputable. He shattered the 35 year old home run record while only playing 130 games. he then almost doubled that record the next year and then broke that record two more times. He hit more home runs in some seasons than entire teams did. He was so far ahead of the field that it is almost hard to describe with words.
We know that ruth was a PED user (He was caught) we also know he used illegal bats (again, he was caught)
It seems by your criteria that we need to start discounting Ruths accomplishments.
I also think you are greatly downplaying bonds and mcgwire as sluggers before they started using.
to say Bonds was not a slugger in the 1990s before he used is disingenuous. he was a fantastic power hitter. he was in the 40s 3 times and slugged .602 for the decade. his ab/hr for the decade was a hr every 13.5 AB. that is less than 2 AB shy of Ruth! the reason bonds didn't hit more HR for the decade is his very high walk totals. he had lots of PA, but not lots of AB because he was such a great slugger he didn't get pitched to.
the same goes for Mac. he was a fantastic slugger before the 70 HR season. his high walk totals and injuries kept him from having the AB to hit lots of HR. his AB/HR is Ruthian before the 70 HR season as well.
Back to Ruth. you said Bonds did the impossible. Re check Ruths stats against his competition. he lapped the field. numerous times. It sure seems "he did the impossible" while being a known and caught cheater.
similar can be said for known cheaters who excelled in the "dead ball" 1960's. Mays was a well known PED user. look at his stats in the 1960's. Same with Aaron. they are outliers for sure.
you also mentioned that you still have to hit the ball when sign stealing. the exact thing has to happen when it comes to PED use. You can be as big as Arnold, but you still have to hit the ball.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
This entire post is completely incorrect. You are changing what I say completely because you don't seem to be able to admit that you're wrong. A lot of discussions end up going this way.
My conclusion is, the only logical reason you are continuing this is, to either defend Bonds, who you apparently admire, or to just "jerk my chain".
Well either way there were a bunch of people screaming about Brady and deflate gate and nearly everyone that was crying about it was saying the same thing “It dont matter cheating is cheating” I’ve read it here at CU a hundred times
Some people scream "cheating is cheating" unless it's their favorite player.
I don't see anyone comparing "deflate gate" with Barry bonds et al,
OK, I am honestly trying to hone in on your position here Joe.
"Up until then, you could beat a cheater if you were very good."
This is a quote from your response to me. Are you considering too much cheating to be up until the point when a cheater cant be beaten?
So it would have nothing to do with the official rules and what you would consider minor cheating which you seem to be OK with?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
David Ortiz represents this argument well. He is somewhere on that 'slippery slope' in regard to PED use. He typically gets a pass from fans and I think he will make the HOF and get a similar pass from voters. He isn't proven any more or less guilty than Gary Sheffield, or even Clemens. Clemens never failed a test. Clemens was never found guilty either....yet despite being arguably the best pitcher ever, he isn't in the HOF.
Where is the line drawn on guilty of use??
Also, is it even cheating for Clemens if it wasn't against the rules? Where is that line drawn?
How much do PEDs help in regard to other forms of cheating in baseball? For example, a case can be made that the Astro signs stealing was more advantageous to performance than PED's were. We quite simply do not know and never will know that answer. Where is that line drawn? It is an impossible pickle.
this is exactly my issue. I am against PED use. I don't like it. the problem is, it is impossible to ever draw a conclusive line in the sand. no one can know so many issues surrounding PED use or really cheating in general. and honestly, PED use wasn't even cheating in MLB until 2005.
without ever having a conclusive line as to who cheated, how much they cheated, how they cheated, how much it helped them and how much it hurt the opponents, one can really never leave a player out of the running for GOAT or HOF talk without being disingenuous.
My opinions have developed over the years surrounding this issue. I find it so so common for people to want to erase some players who used PED, and so many other players who are admitted users (think heroes from yesteryear) get a free pass. they give the excuse that modern PED are so much more effective than older ones. In the context of time, that is not accurate. PED of the past were absolutely giving players advantages. some look at those advantages and scoff. People 100 years ago will do the same scoffing when they look at the silly and ineffectual PED that McGwire and Bonds and Sosa took in comparison to whatever super drug is available at that time.
It has to be taken in context. there have always been different eras in sport.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Good o> @JoeBanzai said:
Not in this thread but I’m talking over the years there have been some hardcore arguments about it
As far as I know, Sheffield only used the cream and clear for a very very short time in I believe 2002 when he trained with Bonds. He said he didn't know it was PED at the time (right...) He went on to have in his opinion his worst year ever in 2002. is this a case of anabolic steroids not working for a player? If it is true that Sheffield only used for less than a season, is that considered just a little cheating? or are we supposed to throw out his entire career?
Ortiz gets a pass. He was allegedly on the list from 2002 I think that was not supposed to be released. His career also seems to follow Joebanzi's arc for users.
Clemens, I have done significant research on. there were no failed tests, no admission and most importantly, no hard evidence against him. I have gone over this extensively in the past here and will not revisit it. Suffice to say, Macnamee had a big axe to grind. HGH was not against MLB rules until 2011 anyways, years after clemens retired.
McGwire, his entire career was played before PED was against MLB rules. that would mean nothing he did was cheating, right?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
"Are you considering too much cheating to be up until the point when a cheater cant be beaten?"
This is a pretty fair statement of how I feel. Common sense tells me at a certain point, when things get inherently, stupidly unfair, the "cheater" needs to be stopped and/or suffer consequences.
Here's my question to you; Are you saying there should be no rules in professional sports regarding cheating?
How about when ARoid clobbered the 1st baseman so he could beat out that ground ball? Why not? Then we should also allow the defender to slug the runner in the face before he gets to the bag!
Maybe the catcher should be allowed to tie the batters shoelaces together, that would be funny! So what? No big deal. The fans will love it!
Bonds was a very, very good hitter, His cheating elevated his SLG so he had three years of .799 up to .863. As good as he was before he became the Hulk, he was nowhere near that good.
Pete Rose is another perfect example. Betting on baseball is taboo, no excuses. It doesn't matter if you fix games or bet only to win. It doesn't matter if it didn't really "hurt" anyone or anything and has no huge lasting effect on the cost of a cup of coffee.
_I am not "OK" with cheating. _
We have a leash law in my neighborhood.
I don't call the police when a neighbors little yappy dog wanders into my yard and poops. I did call the police when another neighbors 2 huge pit bulls continuously came onto my property to try to attack my animals, which are under control at all times. Yes, I did ask them to control their dogs several times.
That's my final answer, if it doesn't help, I am giving up trying to explain my position.
You seem to be fine with Barry and his cohorts, I think him and the other juicers were absolute POS's that screwed up the record books forever.
You're saying injecting yourself with illegally purchased drugs wasn't illegal in MLB?
That explains a LOT.
By the way, I liked him when he played (hurt a LOT) here in MN.
No where near the same kind of arc. Not even close. he did have a jump from 2003-2007, and he failed a test in 2003.
Looks like he might have gotten caught and stopped using?
Not sure if he should "get a pass" there's a failed test. Could it have been a false positive?
No that is incorrect.
would you not say things were "inherently, stupidly unfair" when Ruth started making mincemeat out of the record books? He was indisputably a cheater.
there should absolutely be rules in sports regarding cheating. those rules should not be grandfathered however. Andro was perfectly in the realm of the rules of MLB and was used by Mac and some hall of famers including Mike Piazza and Jeff Bagwell. It was not banned by MLB until 2005. So...those guys were certainly allowed to use it. I am sure there are lots of supplements used today that may be banned at a future time. it doesn't mean those players should have to retroactively be punished.
and 4. in both instances the players should be either called out or ejected from the game for obstruction.
can I ask why, if something is not against the official rules, he would be considered a cheater?
I am sure that pete bet while he was a manager. I have not heard he did it while as an active player. if he did it as an active player, it should disqualify him from the HOF. if only as a manager, I don't see why it would wipe away his eligibility as a player.
I don't know anything about leash laws.
I don't know that I would say I am OK with bonds etc. but I am not ok with them getting thrown under the bus while previous generations get a free pass for their "cheating". in fact, PED were not officially "cheating" until 2005. You may not agree with PED use, but that is your opinion. It has nothing to do with the MLB rulebook.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.