@Baycity said:
Well that is the way customer service at Pcgs explained it to me about my coins. I accepted that, but why should this coin be any different then mine. Because it is an ultra rarity? Shouldn't a grade be just based off the grade and not the rarity of the coin so they can get press that they graded a 1933 Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle Gold Coin in MS65. And CAC agreed with it, sounds like they get a % of that sale, right along with Pcgs. I suppose bad press (with$$$$$) is better then no press.
@Baycity said:
Well that is the way customer service at Pcgs explained it to me about my coins. I accepted that, but why should this coin be any different then mine. Because it is an ultra rarity? Shouldn't a grade be just based off the grade and not the rarity of the coin so they can get press that they graded a 1933 Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle Gold Coin in MS65. And CAC agreed with it, sounds like they get a % of that sale, right along with Pcgs. I suppose bad press (with$$$$$) is better then no press.
Not a good idea what you said there at the end.
I’ll be more blunt - that was an extremely irresponsible and inappropriate comment.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Baycity said:
All I have to say about both your comments is "WOW"
You might consider reading what you wrote and its implications:
“… Shouldn't a grade be just based off the grade and not the rarity of the coin so they can get press that they graded a 1933 Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle Gold Coin in MS65. And CAC agreed with it, sounds like they get a % of that sale, right along with Pcgs.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Please tell me what's not true. Doesn't pcgs get $300 (+ 1%GP) for grading the coin? I don't know what CAC gets. I never used them and really don't care. I don't need a second opionon if I like a coin. Buy the coin not peoples opionons, Isn't that right.
@Baycity said:
Please tell me what's not true. Doesn't pcgs get $300 (+ 1%GP) for grading the coin? I don't know what CAC gets. I never used them and really don't care. I don't need a second opionon if I like a coin. Buy the coin not peoples opionons, Isn't that right.
Yes, each company gets a fee for grading the coin. Neither of them “get a % of that sale”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Baycity said:
Please tell me what's not true. Doesn't pcgs get $300 (+ 1%GP) for grading the coin? I don't know what CAC gets. I never used them and really don't care. I don't need a second opionon if I like a coin. Buy the coin not peoples opionons, Isn't that right.
Yes I already bought the coin. I didn't need their opinion to buy the coin. I bought the coin before sending it in. I also said I am not a grader by no means.
Isn't that +1% based on how much the coin is worth? Doesn't the higher the grade make the coin worth more?
JoeLewis Please tell me what I said.
@Baycity said:
Yes I already bought the coin. I didn't need their opinion to buy the coin. I bought the coin before sending it in. I also said I am not a grader by no means.
MasonG ???? I am happy you can see how this might present some problems.
For me I am happy with the coin I purchase No matter the grade, and then at least I know it is Genuine.
There are alot of dishonest people in the coin world. People like to grade their coins higher then they really are, Just to make a little extra $$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@MasonG said:
Didn't get that feeling, based on your previous posts.
Guess you shouldn't trust your feelings because I didn't say that.
Fair enough. Maybe you should stop sending coins in for grading, then? I mean- at least until you can figure out how they'll likely end up being graded. That way, you'll have the opinion of other people that you desire and you won't be spending money on details coins.
@MasonG said:
Didn't get that feeling, based on your previous posts.
Guess you shouldn't trust your feelings because I didn't say that.
Fair enough. Maybe you should stop sending coins in for grading, then? I mean- at least until you can figure out how they'll likely end up being graded. That way, you'll have the opinion of other people that you desire and you won't be spending money on details coins.
Win-win.
Masong So now you feel you know my situation? Thanks for the advise.
@MasonG said:
Didn't get that feeling, based on your previous posts.
Guess you shouldn't trust your feelings because I didn't say that.
Fair enough. Maybe you should stop sending coins in for grading, then? I mean- at least until you can figure out how they'll likely end up being graded. That way, you'll have the opinion of other people that you desire and you won't be spending money on details coins.
Win-win.
Masong So now you feel you know my situation? Thanks for the advise.
I'm commenting based on what you have posted. If you have more to share, please do.
@Baycity said:
Isn't that +1% based on how much the coin is worth? Doesn't the higher the grade make the coin worth more?
JoeLewis Please tell me what I said.
So you think PCGS gets paid for their grading service (at the time of grading), and then when the coin sells at auction at a later date, they contact the original submitter and ask for more money based on that sale?
@BuffaloIronTail said: ).> This is the first time I have heard about the theft of entire bag of 1928 St. Gaudens double eagles.
If they got a whole bag out without getting pinched, I guess a few loose ones would also make it (and did) out. > > Pete
Yes, an entire bag of 250 1928 Saints ($5,000) was missing. Unlike the 1933 Saints, THAT was a theft. The Superintendent Edwin Dressel had signed off on the accuracy of the entire Philadelphia Mint gold holdings, and just like a cashier taking over for another cashier and vouching for the amount in the cash register at the time he or she takes over, Dressel was personally liable for the amount he signed for.
He was off by $5,000 !!
Nobody suspected him of foul play, not his colleagues at the Philly Mint nor his Washington bosses at the Treasury Department. But he was on the hook for the $$$ and it wasn't until 1945 when legislation was passed by the Congress that absolved him or other Mint higher-ups for personal liability that the financial overhang was erased.
The seal on the vault that housed the 1928's was the same one that held the 1933 Saints (hmmm... ). George McCann opened the vault with others in early-February 1937 to let the Secret Service, FBI, and Mint personel into the vault cage to inspect. The vault was sealed back in 1934 and opened only to install a security alarm and other visits with multiple Mint officials and contents verified; the only time that the bag could have been taken was sometime in 1933.
The FBI and Secret Service, so dilligent in going after the 1933 Saint exchanges and so sure that McCann and Switt were the ringleaders for a dozen or two loose Double Eagles....couldn't get any leads on an entire bag of 250 1928 Saints.
I've always personally thought the co-location in Vault F of the 1928's and the 1933's was suspect. I also found the inability to get any leads on an entire bag of Double Eagles actually stolen is the reason why the Feds were so gung-ho on nabbing the coin collectors who had the audacity to add a 1933 Saint to their personal collections. Glad to see the government had their priorities even back then !!
Roger Burdette wrote about the stolen 1928 Double Eagles some years back when a bag for 1928's was sold over at HA.
@BuffaloIronTail said: ).> This is the first time I have heard about the theft of entire bag of 1928 St. Gaudens double eagles.
If they got a whole bag out without getting pinched, I guess a few loose ones would also make it (and did) out. > > Pete
Yes, an entire bag of 250 1928 Saints ($5,000) was missing. Unlike the 1933 Saints, THAT was a theft. The Superintendent Edwin Dressel had signed off on the accuracy of the entire Philadelphia Mint gold holdings, and just like a cashier taking over for another cashier and vouching for the amount in the cash register at the time he or she takes over, Dressel was personally liable for the amount he signed for.
He was off by $5,000 !!
Nobody suspected him of foul play, not his colleagues at the Philly Mint nor his Washington bosses at the Treasury Department. But he was on the hook for the $$$ and it wasn't until 1945 when legislation was passed by the Congress that absolved him or other Mint higher-ups for personal liability that the financial overhang was erased.
The seal on the vault that housed the 1928's was the same one that held the 1933 Saints (hmmm... ). George McCann opened the vault with others in early-February 1937 to let the Secret Service, FBI, and Mint personel into the vault cage to inspect. The vault was sealed back in 1934 and opened only to install a security alarm and other visits with multiple Mint officials and contents verified; the only time that the bag could have been taken was sometime in 1933.
The FBI and Secret Service, so dilligent in going after the 1933 Saint exchanges and so sure that McCann and Switt were the ringleaders for a dozen or two loose Double Eagles....couldn't get any leads on an entire bag of 250 1928 Saints.
I've always personally thought the co-location in Vault F of the 1928's and the 1933's was suspect. I also found the inability to get any leads on an entire bag of Double Eagles actually stolen is the reason why the Feds were so gung-ho on nabbing the coin collectors who had the audacity to add a 1933 Saint to their personal collections. Glad to see the government had their priorities even back then !!
Roger Burdette wrote about the stolen 1928 Double Eagles some years back when a bag for 1928's was sold over at HA.
Does Goldfinger have the Midas Touch are what? Thanks for info!
@Baycity said:
Please tell me what's not true. Doesn't pcgs get $300 (+ 1%GP) for grading the coin? I don't know what CAC gets. I never used them and really don't care. I don't need a second opionon if I like a coin. Buy the coin not peoples opionons, Isn't that right.
Absolutely...but you impugned the company's and the graders integrity.
Disagree with their grade, state why you think the Left Leg Gash merits no more than an MS-64 or lower, but don't attack them personally and subscribe financial profit (miniscule to them in the grand scheme of things) to PCGS and/or CAC for their grade.
@Baycity said:
Isn't that +1% based on how much the coin is worth? Doesn't the higher the grade make the coin worth more?
JoeLewis Please tell me what I said.
So you think PCGS gets paid for their grading service (at the time of grading), and then when the coin sells at auction at a later date, they contact the original submitter and ask for more money based on that sale?
No. But a coin That got graded MS65 is sure worth a lot more then a coin that should of been graded "Genuine MS Details" or maybe MS62 or MS63.
They base the price off that MS65 so they make a lot more $$$$$. But they get the same amount from me for my coin(s) weather they are MS65 or Genuine MS Details.
I mean look at that coin. That knee is the first thing you see. They are gouges not just nicks or rubs or even scuffs. Come on just look at it. There is no way they would grade any other coin with that leg as a MS65
@BuffaloIronTail said: ).> This is the first time I have heard about the theft of entire bag of 1928 St. Gaudens double eagles.
If they got a whole bag out without getting pinched, I guess a few loose ones would also make it (and did) out. > > Pete
Yes, an entire bag of 250 1928 Saints ($5,000) was missing. Unlike the 1933 Saints, THAT was a theft. The Superintendent Edwin Dressel had signed off on the accuracy of the entire Philadelphia Mint gold holdings, and just like a cashier taking over for another cashier and vouching for the amount in the cash register at the time he or she takes over, Dressel was personally liable for the amount he signed for.
He was off by $5,000 !!
Nobody suspected him of foul play, not his colleagues at the Philly Mint nor his Washington bosses at the Treasury Department. But he was on the hook for the $$$ and it wasn't until 1945 when legislation was passed by the Congress that absolved him or other Mint higher-ups for personal liability that the financial overhang was erased.
The seal on the vault that housed the 1928's was the same one that held the 1933 Saints (hmmm... ). George McCann opened the vault with others in early-February 1937 to let the Secret Service, FBI, and Mint personel into the vault cage to inspect. The vault was sealed back in 1934 and opened only to install a security alarm and other visits with multiple Mint officials and contents verified; the only time that the bag could have been taken was sometime in 1933.
The FBI and Secret Service, so dilligent in going after the 1933 Saint exchanges and so sure that McCann and Switt were the ringleaders for a dozen or two loose Double Eagles....couldn't get any leads on an entire bag of 250 1928 Saints.
I've always personally thought the co-location in Vault F of the 1928's and the 1933's was suspect. I also found the inability to get any leads on an entire bag of Double Eagles actually stolen is the reason why the Feds were so gung-ho on nabbing the coin collectors who had the audacity to add a 1933 Saint to their personal collections. Glad to see the government had their priorities even back then !!
Roger Burdette wrote about the stolen 1928 Double Eagles some years back when a bag for 1928's was sold over at HA.
Does Goldfinger have the Midas Touch are what? Thanks for info!
I’d sure say so! @GoldFinger1969 It’s nice to see you posting some interesting info on this side of the fence, Ive always enjoyed your posts when I lurk ATS
@Baycity said:
Isn't that +1% based on how much the coin is worth? Doesn't the higher the grade make the coin worth more?
JoeLewis Please tell me what I said.
So you think PCGS gets paid for their grading service (at the time of grading), and then when the coin sells at auction at a later date, they contact the original submitter and ask for more money based on that sale?
No. But a coin That got graded MS65 is sure worth a lot more then a coin that should of been graded "Genuine MS Details" or maybe MS62 or MS63.
They base the price off that MS65 so they make a lot more $$$$$. But they get the same amount from me for my coin(s) weather they are MS65 or Genuine MS Details.
I mean look at that coin. That knee is the first thing you see. They are gouges not just nicks or rubs or even scuffs. Come on just look at it. There is no way they would grade any other coin with that leg as a MS65
You do realize there’s only ONE of these available to collectors. I can’t see how the grade really even matters with respect to its future auction result.
Plus (I can’t believe I’m even taking the time to do this), PCGS would have to determine the value BEFORE the auction because that’s when they get paid. What would they base that value on? There’s only ONE of these!
Absolutely...but you impugned the company's and the graders integrity.
Disagree with their grade, state why you think the Left Leg Gash merits no more than an MS-64 or lower, but don't attack them personally and subscribe financial profit (miniscule to them in the grand scheme of things) to PCGS and/or CAC for their grade.
JMHO.
You are right. Just because everything Pcgs does is about financial profit doesn't mean i needed to stoop to their level.
I completely disagree with the grade they have given this coin. With those gashes on that leg I wouldn't of given it any higher then a MS63. What's your opinion? With a leg like that why do you think they gave it a MS65? Is MS65 a fair grade? Come on I want to hear your opinion. Don't just say "fair or not fair" say why. Give your honest, unbiased opinion. Use your words. Let's hear it.
Plus (I can’t believe I’m even taking the time to do this), PCGS would have to determine the value BEFORE the auction because that’s when they get paid. What would they base that value on? There’s only ONE of these!
@Baycity said: No. But a coin That got graded MS65 is sure worth a lot more then a coin that should of been graded "Genuine MS Details" or maybe MS62 or MS63.
They base the price off that MS65 so they make a lot more $$$$$. But they get the same amount from me for my coin(s) weather they are MS65 or Genuine MS Details.
I mean look at that coin. That knee is the first thing you see. They are gouges not just nicks or rubs or even scuffs. Come on just look at it. There is no way they would grade any other coin with that leg as a MS65
I don't think that the sole legal coin to purchase in dealing with the 1933 Double Eagle really matters that much. It is unique and I think it would have sold for pretty much the same price even if AU-graded or low-60's. Maybe a bit less but not much less.
When -- not if, when -- the 10 or 11 coins sitting in Fort Knox are rightfully released then maybe things will change with the importance of the grade. But not anytime soon.
@Baycity said:
You are right. Just because everything Pcgs does is about financial profit doesn't mean i needed to stoop to their level.
I completely disagree with the grade they have given this coin. With those gashes on that leg I wouldn't of given it any higher then a MS63. What's your opinion? With a leg like that why do you think they gave it a MS65? Is MS65 a fair grade? Come on I want to hear your opinion. Don't just say "fair or not fair" say why. Give your honest, unbiased opinion. Use your words. Let's hear it.
I think the coin is very nice outside of the leg gash. I think while noticeable it was more forgiven there because (1) it's on a high point (2) it's not as noticeable as it would be in the obverse fields or somewhere prominent on the reverse (3) the rest of the coin is very nice (and I can't attach a JPEG of the coins that would show the coin in a close-up ).
The obverse fields are very clean (at least from the photos I've seen)....the right hand is a bit battered; the left hand very clean....face is clean....rays in good shape.
The reverse is VERY CLEAN....you could make a case it's a 67....no noticeable hits....good fields....feathers struck well, no rub or major bag marks....rays have very tiny dings almost sequentially in a row but all closer to taps than strikes.
I'm not a grading expert -- even for Saints, where I've done most of my studying/reading -- but I wonder if mechanically the graders called the obverse a 63 and the reverse a 67 and split the difference.
Note the repeated assurances that the coins were "stolen" a word that was deliberately used to confuse the public and jurors.
Also note the extent they went to get the 1933's back with all the Secret Service efforts, even during World War II.....but nothing pretty much for an entire bag of 1928's (250 DEs) that were actually stolen sometime in 1933.
Also note the cocky attitude that their "meticulous record-keeping PROVES" that no 1933's ever left the Mint legally. Aside from the fact that they didn't know that 43 1933's were mixed in with the count for 1932 Saints (to balance the books), they can't explain how the gold books were in balance BEFORE they got the 10 Langbord-Switt Saints.
U.S Mint:"We have proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that no 1933's EVER legally left the Mint as every step in production from striking to vault was meticulously documented. Every coin is accounted for, at all times, in all places."
Public:"Then how come if the coins were stolen you didn't report any missing gold for over 70 years like you did with the 1928's ?"
@DCW said:
I will get flamed for this, but that does not have the look of a MS65 Saint to my eyes. I know, I know...find another!
But seriously, look at the marks all over her knee
Looks like she landed on her face when the dog attacked her knee.
@DCW said:
I will get flamed for this, but that does not have the look of a MS65 Saint to my eyes. I know, I know...find another!
But seriously, look at the marks all over her knee
Looks like she landed on her face when the dog attacked her knee.
I'd be interested in hearing from some of the grading experts here as to their numerical thoughts on the 1933 Double Eagle,
In particular, do you see the 2 sides grading 63/67 ?
I wish I could post some hi-res pics of the coin, aside from the knee gash it is a very nice-looking coin.
Sigh...it doesn't really matter because it's one of a kind. Just like the 1870-S $3. But it is a little frustrating to have this called a gem vs other non-1933 coins.
(Edit: This is still an amazing coin that any of us here would love to have (and one person does!). But it's an interesting discussion regarding grading standards for unique coins.)
I'm not a good grader and pics are very different than in hand but that sure looks like a 63 at best. And the reverse is nowhere near 67 with scuffs all along the wing edge, eagle's breast, and nicks on the rays. Here is the 33 vs a random 66+:
@lermish said:
Sigh...it doesn't really matter because it's one of a kind. Just like the 1870-S $3. But it is a little frustrating to have this called a gem vs other non-1933 coins. (Edit: This is still an amazing coin that any of us here would love to have (and one person does!). But it's an interesting discussion regarding grading standards for unique coins.) I'm not a good grader and pics are very different than in hand but that sure looks like a 63 at best. And the reverse is nowhere near 67 with scuffs all along the wing edge, eagle's breast, and nicks on the rays.
This shows you how you just can't judge via pics. The images you showed definitely show the coin in a different light from the pics I judged off of. I still think it's better than a 63 though you can make a case for a 65 if you are looking for POSITIVES given the extra time they certainly spent on the coin. If this same coin came in with a bunch of 1924's it may well have graded 63 or 64 and who knows about CAC.
The 66+ has a deep gash/bag mark half way along the body bottom.
@Baycity said: No. But a coin That got graded MS65 is sure worth a lot more then a coin that should of been graded "Genuine MS Details" or maybe MS62 or MS63.
They base the price off that MS65 so they make a lot more $$$$$. But they get the same amount from me for my coin(s) weather they are MS65 or Genuine MS Details.
I mean look at that coin. That knee is the first thing you see. They are gouges not just nicks or rubs or even scuffs. Come on just look at it. There is no way they would grade any other coin with that leg as a MS65
I don't think that the sole legal coin to purchase in dealing with the 1933 Double Eagle really matters that much. It is unique and I think it would have sold for pretty much the same price even if AU-graded or low-60's. Maybe a bit less but not much less.
When -- not if, when -- the 10 or 11 coins sitting in Fort Knox are rightfully released then maybe things will change with the importance of the grade. But not anytime soon.
Comments
That coin could have FAROUK WAS HERE scratched into it with a rusty nail and PCGS still would not put it in a genuine/details holder.
I am a collector
And things, well things
They tend to accumulate
Not a good idea what you said there at the end.
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
I’ll be more blunt - that was an extremely irresponsible and inappropriate comment.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
All I have to say about both your comments is "WOW"
You might consider reading what you wrote and its implications:
“… Shouldn't a grade be just based off the grade and not the rarity of the coin so they can get press that they graded a 1933 Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle Gold Coin in MS65. And CAC agreed with it, sounds like they get a % of that sale, right along with Pcgs.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Wow
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
Please tell me what's not true. Doesn't pcgs get $300 (+ 1%GP) for grading the coin? I don't know what CAC gets. I never used them and really don't care. I don't need a second opionon if I like a coin. Buy the coin not peoples opionons, Isn't that right.
??? You said you sent coins to PCGS in order to get other people's opinions, isn't that right?
Yes, each company gets a fee for grading the coin. Neither of them “get a % of that sale”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
You know that’s not what you said.
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
Yes I already bought the coin. I didn't need their opinion to buy the coin. I bought the coin before sending it in. I also said I am not a grader by no means.
Isn't that +1% based on how much the coin is worth? Doesn't the higher the grade make the coin worth more?
JoeLewis Please tell me what I said.
I can see how this might present some problems.
Why would anyone who could afford to buy a multimillion $ coin, unique, care whether CAC thought the grade assigned by PCGS is appropriate?
MasonG ???? I am happy you can see how this might present some problems.
For me I am happy with the coin I purchase No matter the grade, and then at least I know it is Genuine.
There are alot of dishonest people in the coin world. People like to grade their coins higher then they really are, Just to make a little extra $$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Didn't get that feeling, based on your previous posts.
Guess you shouldn't trust your feelings because I didn't say that.
I agree with 100%
Fair enough. Maybe you should stop sending coins in for grading, then? I mean- at least until you can figure out how they'll likely end up being graded. That way, you'll have the opinion of other people that you desire and you won't be spending money on details coins.
Win-win.
Masong So now you feel you know my situation? Thanks for the advise.
I'm commenting based on what you have posted. If you have more to share, please do.
Thanks Mom
You're welcome, daughter.
So you think PCGS gets paid for their grading service (at the time of grading), and then when the coin sells at auction at a later date, they contact the original submitter and ask for more money based on that sale?
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
This forum has been going downhill lately.
People trying to take moral high ground/win internet arguments are just as bad as people calling names, etc.
For the sake of people just trying to enjoy the hobby please take it to DMs.
BHNC #248 … 130 and counting.
Yes, an entire bag of 250 1928 Saints ($5,000) was missing. Unlike the 1933 Saints, THAT was a theft. The Superintendent Edwin Dressel had signed off on the accuracy of the entire Philadelphia Mint gold holdings, and just like a cashier taking over for another cashier and vouching for the amount in the cash register at the time he or she takes over, Dressel was personally liable for the amount he signed for.
He was off by $5,000 !!
Nobody suspected him of foul play, not his colleagues at the Philly Mint nor his Washington bosses at the Treasury Department. But he was on the hook for the $$$ and it wasn't until 1945 when legislation was passed by the Congress that absolved him or other Mint higher-ups for personal liability that the financial overhang was erased.
The seal on the vault that housed the 1928's was the same one that held the 1933 Saints (hmmm...
). George McCann opened the vault with others in early-February 1937 to let the Secret Service, FBI, and Mint personel into the vault cage to inspect. The vault was sealed back in 1934 and opened only to install a security alarm and other visits with multiple Mint officials and contents verified; the only time that the bag could have been taken was sometime in 1933.
The FBI and Secret Service, so dilligent in going after the 1933 Saint exchanges and so sure that McCann and Switt were the ringleaders for a dozen or two loose Double Eagles....couldn't get any leads on an entire bag of 250 1928 Saints.
I've always personally thought the co-location in Vault F of the 1928's and the 1933's was suspect. I also found the inability to get any leads on an entire bag of Double Eagles actually stolen is the reason why the Feds were so gung-ho on nabbing the coin collectors who had the audacity to add a 1933 Saint to their personal collections. Glad to see the government had their priorities even back then !!
Roger Burdette wrote about the stolen 1928 Double Eagles some years back when a bag for 1928's was sold over at HA.
Does Goldfinger have the Midas Touch are what? Thanks for info!
Absolutely...but you impugned the company's and the graders integrity.
Disagree with their grade, state why you think the Left Leg Gash merits no more than an MS-64 or lower, but don't attack them personally and subscribe financial profit (miniscule to them in the grand scheme of things) to PCGS and/or CAC for their grade.
JMHO.
No. But a coin That got graded MS65 is sure worth a lot more then a coin that should of been graded "Genuine MS Details" or maybe MS62 or MS63.
They base the price off that MS65 so they make a lot more $$$$$. But they get the same amount from me for my coin(s) weather they are MS65 or Genuine MS Details.
I mean look at that coin. That knee is the first thing you see. They are gouges not just nicks or rubs or even scuffs. Come on just look at it. There is no way they would grade any other coin with that leg as a MS65
I’d sure say so! @GoldFinger1969 It’s nice to see you posting some interesting info on this side of the fence, Ive always enjoyed your posts when I lurk ATS
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
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You do realize there’s only ONE of these available to collectors. I can’t see how the grade really even matters with respect to its future auction result.
Plus (I can’t believe I’m even taking the time to do this), PCGS would have to determine the value BEFORE the auction because that’s when they get paid. What would they base that value on? There’s only ONE of these!
I assume PCGS graded this for free.
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
You are right. Just because everything Pcgs does is about financial profit doesn't mean i needed to stoop to their level.
I completely disagree with the grade they have given this coin. With those gashes on that leg I wouldn't of given it any higher then a MS63. What's your opinion? With a leg like that why do you think they gave it a MS65? Is MS65 a fair grade? Come on I want to hear your opinion. Don't just say "fair or not fair" say why. Give your honest, unbiased opinion. Use your words. Let's hear it.
JoeLewis Thank you for your time.
I don't think that the sole legal coin to purchase in dealing with the 1933 Double Eagle really matters that much. It is unique and I think it would have sold for pretty much the same price even if AU-graded or low-60's. Maybe a bit less but not much less.
When -- not if, when
-- the 10 or 11 coins sitting in Fort Knox are rightfully released then maybe things will change with the importance of the grade. But not anytime soon.
I think the coin is very nice outside of the leg gash. I think while noticeable it was more forgiven there because (1) it's on a high point (2) it's not as noticeable as it would be in the obverse fields or somewhere prominent on the reverse (3) the rest of the coin is very nice (and I can't attach a JPEG of the coins that would show the coin in a close-up
).
The obverse fields are very clean (at least from the photos I've seen)....the right hand is a bit battered; the left hand very clean....face is clean....rays in good shape.
The reverse is VERY CLEAN....you could make a case it's a 67....no noticeable hits....good fields....feathers struck well, no rub or major bag marks....rays have very tiny dings almost sequentially in a row but all closer to taps than strikes.
I'm not a grading expert -- even for Saints, where I've done most of my studying/reading -- but I wonder if mechanically the graders called the obverse a 63 and the reverse a 67 and split the difference.
For those interested, the story as told by Sotheby's, David Tripp, and the U.S. Government.
https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auction/2021/three-treasures-collected-by-stuart-weitzman/the-1933-double-eagle
Note the repeated assurances that the coins were "stolen" a word that was deliberately used to confuse the public and jurors.
Also note the extent they went to get the 1933's back with all the Secret Service efforts, even during World War II.....but nothing pretty much for an entire bag of 1928's (250 DEs) that were actually stolen sometime in 1933.
Also note the cocky attitude that their "meticulous record-keeping PROVES" that no 1933's ever left the Mint legally. Aside from the fact that they didn't know that 43 1933's were mixed in with the count for 1932 Saints (to balance the books), they can't explain how the gold books were in balance BEFORE they got the 10 Langbord-Switt Saints.
U.S Mint: "We have proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that no 1933's EVER legally left the Mint as every step in production from striking to vault was meticulously documented. Every coin is accounted for, at all times, in all places."
Public: "Then how come if the coins were stolen you didn't report any missing gold for over 70 years like you did with the 1928's ?"
U.S. Mint: "NEXT QUESTION !!"
Looks like she landed on her face when the dog attacked her knee.
I'd be interested in hearing from some of the grading experts here as to their numerical thoughts on the 1933 Double Eagle,
In particular, do you see the 2 sides grading 63/67 ?
I wish I could post some hi-res pics of the coin, aside from the knee gash it is a very nice-looking coin.
TrueView Max: https://images.pcgs.com/cert/42095232_trueview_213282072_max.jpg
I am a collector
And things, well things
They tend to accumulate
Sigh...it doesn't really matter because it's one of a kind. Just like the 1870-S $3. But it is a little frustrating to have this called a gem vs other non-1933 coins.
(Edit: This is still an amazing coin that any of us here would love to have (and one person does!). But it's an interesting discussion regarding grading standards for unique coins.)
I'm not a good grader and pics are very different than in hand but that sure looks like a 63 at best. And the reverse is nowhere near 67 with scuffs all along the wing edge, eagle's breast, and nicks on the rays. Here is the 33 vs a random 66+:
On the subject of the 1928s that went "missing"... the prevailing rumor is that Switt and an accomplice melted them in his basement.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
This shows you how you just can't judge via pics. The images you showed definitely show the coin in a different light from the pics I judged off of. I still think it's better than a 63 though you can make a case for a 65 if you are looking for POSITIVES given the extra time they certainly spent on the coin. If this same coin came in with a bunch of 1924's it may well have graded 63 or 64 and who knows about CAC.
The 66+ has a deep gash/bag mark half way along the body bottom.
Looks like the government is back to stealing more gold from the American people....
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fbi-civil-war-gold-pennsylvania-dents-run/
Your accusation doesn’t appear to be based on proof or legalities.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
When?